What kind of retcons do you think will justify the plot of StarCraft 3?

[ragnarok]

Please stop trying to change the subject with non sequiturs. I don't care about "ALL" psionics because it is not relevant to the current topic we are discussing. We are talking about Protoss psionics and only Protoss psionics in this very instance.

You're making it sound like it has to originate from the Void because the Xel'Naga (via SC2 lore) had allowed Aiur to eventually support life, and that's how the Protoss were born (through indirect interference). Therefore, EVERY trait they possessed came from the Void itself because of the Xel'Naga.

[Turalyon]

What you and others feel is bad is because Blizzard did not interpret it in the way you thought they would, and didn't look at the details carefully enough

Please don't generalise and presume what others interpretations are since you do this all the time and are invariably wrong. That you reply with non sequiturs to my posts clearly shows you're not comprehending what my posts are about most of the time.

The Zerg still had numerous probes on the edge of Protoss space. They knew where the empire's borders were, and had in fact crossed them (since the K-sec is inside Protoss space, apparently on the frontier). Space telescopes, like the "witness" postulated by Gradius, would allow the Zerg to determine things like atmospheric composition and continents and so forth. They would know loads about the empire's movements from watching them. The Zerg apparently have FTL connection to their probes, so they would be aware if any were captured or lost. The Protoss do not possess psychic disruptor technology or they would have used it against the Zerg or each other. Which they logically should have, but whatever. Jamming the telemetry of a couple of probes doesn't solve the other problems.

In fact, combined with the Confederacy's rapid development of psychic warfare, Tassadar capturing probes may have contributed to the Zerg invaders going berserk at the end of 2499 despite spending the previous decade almost lazily expanding.

Some nice fridge logic you got there but the point you made originally only specifically mentioned the Zerg probe being brought to Aiur as being the problem behind why the Overmind doesn't seem to know where Aiur is. There could be just as many other reasons for why the Overmind couldn't find Aiur (if that was indeed a problem to begin with), such as the Protoss having counter-measures against scans like a psionic distortion field across their region of space that confuse Zerg scans/ can't be penetrated. Or that the Overmind isn't as competent as it makes itself out to be. It did lose afterall by miscalculating the Protoss' ability to fight back against it as well as the worth of its determinant. It seems like you're now going out of your way to reinforce a contradiction that you'd prefer to see. Not that I mind one way or another.

You're making it sound like it has to originate from the Void because the Xel'Naga (via SC2 lore) had allowed Aiur to eventually support life, and that's how the Protoss were born (through indirect interference). Therefore, EVERY trait they possessed came from the Void itself because of the Xel'Naga.

No, that's not what I'm saying. The Protoss had purity of form/great psionic potential and the psychic link (which is now apparently interchangeable with the word "Khala" at all times even though it was only called that when Khas rediscovered the psychic link much later on) before they were discovered by the Xel'Naga/Amon, so they weren't drawing from the Void then. But because they still have purity of form/great psionic potential even when wilfully or physically disconnected from the psychic link/Khala, it stands to reason that this purity of form/great psionic potential is sustained from another source. The EU apparently considers this to be the Void. You have, so far, said nothing remotely near enough to even counter this position.

[Mislagnissa]

Some nice fridge logic you got there but the point you made originally only specifically mentioned the Zerg probe being brought to Aiur as being the problem behind why the Overmind doesn't seem to know where Aiur is. There could be just as many other reasons for why the Overmind couldn't find Aiur (if that was indeed a problem to begin with), such as the Protoss having counter-measures against scans like a psionic distortion field across their region of space that confuse Zerg scans/ can't be penetrated. Or that the Overmind isn't as competent as it makes itself out to be. It did lose afterall by miscalculating the Protoss' ability to fight back against it as well as the worth of its determinant. It seems like you're now going out of your way to reinforce a contradiction that you'd prefer to see. Not that I mind one way or another.

Like many other things, I would chalk it up to Metzen rewriting the script without thinking it through. A much better explanation that could have been offered was that the Zerg did not have sufficient military intelligence about the Protoss' defenses, nor did they have a weapon that could stand up to the Protoss as of their last recorded contact with the xel'naga. The dark templar have knowledge of Protoss' defenses and how to avoid them, so Zeratul leaking that intel is a worst case scenario that sped up the Zerg time table by decades or more.

The Protoss had purity of form/great psionic potential and the psychic link (which is now apparently interchangeable with the word "Khala" at all times even though it was only called that when Khas rediscovered the psychic link much later on)

The psychic link did not have a proper name before then. Well, I suppose in-setting it had a name but we were never told what it was so all we have is "Khala", which also refers to the religion built around it and the vaguely USA Constitution-styled caste system. I entertained the idea of adding conjunctions to clarify the meanings.

[Turalyon]

A much better explanation that could have been offered was that the Zerg did not have sufficient military intelligence about the Protoss' defenses, nor did they have a weapon that could stand up to the Protoss as of their last recorded contact with the xel'naga. The dark templar have knowledge of Protoss' defenses and how to avoid them, so Zeratul leaking that intel is a worst case scenario that sped up the Zerg time table by decades or more.

That's kinda what happened though. When the Protoss captured the probes, the Zerg did not have its determinant at that stage, so even if the Overmind knew the location of Aiur then, it wouldn't have attacked given that it feared such a conflict without this trump card. The mind-meld with Zeratul later on revealed all his secrets to the Overmind apparently, which probably included that there were no Dark Templar on Aiur and/or that mainline Protoss on Aiur would do anything to keep the Dark Templar out. It also probably allowed the Overmind to overcome any remaining fear (supposedly) of them. Who knows...

[Mislagnissa]

That's kinda what happened though. When the Protoss captured the probes, the Zerg did not have its determinant at that stage, so even if the Overmind knew the location of Aiur then, it wouldn't have attacked given that it feared such a conflict without this trump card. The mind-meld with Zeratul later on revealed all his secrets to the Overmind apparently, which probably included that there were no Dark Templar on Aiur and/or that mainline Protoss on Aiur would do anything to keep the Dark Templar out. It also probably allowed the Overmind to overcome any remaining fear (supposedly) of them. Who knows...

The original idea was that the Protoss were an existential threat to the Zerg who needed a miraculous determinant simply to stand against them on an equal playing field, as opposed to the ineffectual losers they became in the games. You can justify the writing all you want, but I think the story we got is inferior to the story we could have had.

Retribution mocks the cerebrates' immortality by depicting Khalai and Terran forces investigating Aridas temporarily killing or subduing cerebrates left and right to successfully destabilize Zerg coordination. The story is pretty bland and generic, but I really liked that it still portrayed the Zerg as vulnerable without a deus ex machina.

In fact, I am really surprised the Protoss had not already killed cerebrates before Tassadar contacted them (Retribution's retcons notwithstanding). The Conclave's statement about winning their offense against the Zerg prior to the civil war makes no sense if killing them is as ineffectual as was portrayed. Either the Conclave was delusional, or the Protoss and Zerg fought on an equal playing field and their moronic decision to fight a civil war is what allowed the Zerg to win.

[ragnarok]

No, that's not what I'm saying. The Protoss had purity of form/great psionic potential and the psychic link (which is now apparently interchangeable with the word "Khala" at all times even though it was only called that when Khas rediscovered the psychic link much later on) before they were discovered by the Xel'Naga/Amon, so they weren't drawing from the Void then. But because they still have purity of form/great psionic potential even when wilfully or physically disconnected from the psychic link/Khala, it stands to reason that this purity of form/great psionic potential is sustained from another source. The EU apparently considers this to be the Void. You have, so far, said nothing remotely near enough to even counter this position.

Until LotV, it was never stated that the Void was actually another dimension unto itself. Sure it was another source, but until LotV they never explained in detail just what the Void really was. I felt that (prior to LotV) that the psionic potential if the Khala is FORCIBLY SEVERED would be the Void because the lore said if you're disconnected from the Khala that way, the Void would embrace the Protoss. But for those who did not yet embrace it (remember it wasn't until LotV that Rohana said that you're in the Khala upon birth), the psionic potential could have been something else.

Remember, before their exile, the Nerazim didn't embrace the Khala, but they also didn't sever their chords. I'll have to read the book again, but because their chords weren't cut, it wasn't FORCED severing. Furthermore, the Void is supposed to give psionic powers untold of to the Nerazim, yet they had nothing of the sort back then. Unless, of course, you just want to argue they just didn't understand how to effectively use the Void power.

[ragnarok]

In fact, I am really surprised the Protoss had not already killed cerebrates before Tassadar contacted them (Retribution's retcons notwithstanding). The Conclave's statement about winning their offense against the Zerg prior to the civil war makes no sense if killing them is as ineffectual as was portrayed. Either the Conclave was delusional, or the Protoss and Zerg fought on an equal playing field and their moronic decision to fight a civil war is what allowed the Zerg to win.

They were too arrogant. I think it was in the DT Saga Part 2: Shadow Hunters, they they had specifically said they knew everything, and the other Protoss people just had to follow what they told them to do.

This we saw at the beginning of "Eye of the Storm,", when Aldaris told Tassadar that the Conclave witnessed the events of Zeratul killing the Cerebrates and that they did not revive, proving the Conclave's methods had indeed been incorrect. We also saw this at the end of "The Trial of Tassadar," where Zeratul confronted Aldaris by saying that they were blind and couldn't see the fall ahead of them, that all they've succeeded in doing is play into the Overmind's hands

[Turalyon]

The original idea was that the Protoss were an existential threat to the Zerg who needed a miraculous determinant simply to stand against them on an equal playing field, as opposed to the ineffectual losers they became in the games. You can justify the writing all you want, but I think the story we got is inferior to the story we could have had.

I'm not the one that's doing the justifying here though... As I've laid out to you before, it's not an objective fact that the Protoss are an existential threat to the Zerg such that they can't win without a miraculous determinant, but you seem intent on keeping your misinterpretation of the stated lore in the manual.

This premise is a derivation of the Overmind's subjective fear - not an objective fact given by an omniscient narrator. The omnisicent narrator of the manual stipulates that the determinant and it's supposed effect is a subjective want of the Overmind, not an objective be-all/end-all scenario.

In fact, I am really surprised the Protoss had not already killed cerebrates before Tassadar contacted them (Retribution's retcons notwithstanding). The Conclave's statement about winning their offense against the Zerg prior to the civil war makes no sense if killing them is as ineffectual as was portrayed. Either the Conclave was delusional, or the Protoss and Zerg fought on an equal playing field and their moronic decision to fight a civil war is what allowed the Zerg to win.

I don't understand where you'd get the interpretation that the Protoss "are ineffectual losers" in Sc1 because this is only really apparent in BW (and you don't need me to elaborate there I'm sure).

The Conclave are of the belief that the Zerg are not endless (which is true), and the Overmind knows this too (otherwise, it wouldn't fear them to begin with). This works well for them because in a straight up fight, the Protoss can kill many times their number in Zerg in such exchanges. Sure this doesn't mean necessarily inform on their ability to hold ground that was taken, but the Protoss are shown to be able to take the fight to the Zerg successfully. If they can kill the Zerg forces - which they can and has been demonstrated in the first three Protoss missions of the The Fall - they have no need to invest resources and great risk into targeting cerebrates because a cerebrate is useless if you can just as easily wipe away its forces. That's where Aldaris/Conclace is coming from - Aldaris exclamation of overcoming the entire Zerg Swarm with the might and fury that is their heritage is not just bragging/delusion, it's rooted in actual possibility.

And yes, the civil war is the reason why the Protoss began losing against the Zerg. It's easy for us to claim it as moronic now because we are looking at it in retrospect/hindsight and because we know what eventually happens (it's much like how people misinterpret how the Overmind going to Aiur is considered "moronic" and that it must be "suicidal" because it eventually died, when they don't realise that if the Zerg did actually win, it would've been lauded instead as a brilliant strategic choice or that the Protoss instead are "moronic". Go figure). Thing is, it's only really moronic if one is ignorant of the identity and culture of the Protoss, which is rooted in their history. Sure, one can say the game needed to exposit this in the game and not rely on outside/presumed knowledge, but one then has to consider brevity/momentum of the narrative, the respect of the audience members intelligence and whether that this would even be justified in-universe given that the player character is a Protoss and should know about their own history if anything...

Sure, the civil war may have been started by Aldaris in his initial hunt for Tassadar, but it was Tassadar who perpetuated it and was the one to almost bring the Protoss to its knees when he and his colleagues undermined and destroyed the very system that was currently keeping the Zerg at bay. This is one of the things that make Sc1 so great - no-one was dirt-free and heroic, not even the designated hero Tassadar (or Raynor for that matter).

This particular aspect of the Protoss is important since it also continues a theme present across all Sc1 campaigns: in that the greatest enemy is more often themselves than any other external influence. For the Protoss, it is ingrained in their history which comes back to haunt them both literally and metaphorically. It's most overt for the Terrans in Rebel Yell because it's in their very nature and that its main concern is Terran conflict above all else. It's very subtle for the Zerg because it relates to the hubris of the Overmind and is only realised/appreiciated after you re-examine the events of how it eventually got defeated. It was, ironically, through its desire for a determinant (the very thing it thought would assure ultimate victory for the Zerg) that started it and led to its eventual downfall.

I felt that (prior to LotV) that the psionic potential if the Khala is FORCIBLY SEVERED would be the Void because the lore said if you're disconnected from the Khala that way, the Void would embrace the Protoss. But for those who did not yet embrace it (remember it wasn't until LotV that Rohana said that you're in the Khala upon birth), the psionic potential could have been something else.

But LotV "answers" this problem through the Tal'Darim. They are supposed to represent, like the Dark Templar before them, the ancestors of those who wilfully turned away from the psychic link/Khala. They still have their nerve cords but are not part of the Khala, draw their power from the Void are still pure of form/have great psionic potential.

Your insistence on their being a meaningful distinction with or without having nerve cords does not discredit the notion that a) Protoss, of any kind, have purity of form/great psionic potential at all times and b) draw their psionic power by default in only two ways. The idea of a third way/source could exist but there's no point in speculating about its existence or impact because one cannot prove its existence or influence with the information at hand.

[ragnarok]

But LotV "answers" this problem through the Tal'Darim. They are supposed to represent, like the Dark Templar before them, the ancestors of those who wilfully turned away from the psychic link/Khala. They still have their nerve cords but are not part of the Khala, draw their power from the Void are still pure of form/have great psionic potential.

Your insistence on their being a meaningful distinction with or without having nerve cords does not discredit the notion that a) Protoss, of any kind, have purity of form/great psionic potential at all times and b) draw their psionic power by default in only two ways. The idea of a third way/source could exist but there's no point in speculating about its existence or impact because one cannot prove its existence or influence with the information at hand.

I'm unsure with the Tal'darim it provides the answer due to the terrazine factor. Given that Void Shades could enter in terrazine fogs and Alarak made it clear that it lets them peer beyond the veil, along with the fact that the Keystone reacts to it, it means terrazine is a substance from the Void.

LotV did NOT answer just when Amon introduced terrazine to the Tal'darim, or for even the origins on the matter. I felt that in the beginning, it's possible the Tal'darim didn't have any void-based powers, but Amon eventually gave it to them by infusing them with power through his means of controlling parts of the Void, and then later via terrazine.

[Turalyon]

^ You're woefully missing the point and this still doesn't proven that a third source of psionic power for Protoss exists since you are nowhere near refuting the two notions listed.