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Thread: Did the Xel'Naga Foresee Their Defeat?

  1. #1

    Default Did the Xel'Naga Foresee Their Defeat?



    In LotV, we are treated to an interesting vignette: Artanis walks through the halls of Ulnar, brushing his hand against chiseled stone. His recent history is recapitulated before him in mid-relief; he gazes upon the forms of Kerrigan, Shakuras, aureoled zerg... and himself, cradling the limp form of Zeratul. Around him are arrayed formations of stalagmite and stalactite, indicating the caverns have not seen life in well over a 100,000 years.

    This sculpture is clearly ancient, its contents mirrored in similar carvings across the galaxy.

    But how are they so accurate? With such intimate knowledge of history, one would think the Xel'Naga would have foreseen Amon's fall and resurrection -- and indeed they must have. So how is it that the greater whole of the Xel'Naga not only fell into Amon's trap at Zerus, but allowed themselves to be slain in their crypts in Ulnar centuries later, and then ultimately vanquished when their spirits returned to the Void?

    ... Or is this kind of conflict a natural, innate part of each cycle?
    Aaand sold.


    Be it through hallowed grounds or lands of sorrow
    The Forger's wake is bereft and fallow

    Is the residuum worth the cost of destruction and maiming;
    Or is the shaping a culling and exercise in taming?

    The road's goal is the Origin of Being
    But be wary through what thickets it winds.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Did the Xel'Naga Foresee Their Defeat?

    I'm not sure they actually forsaw Amon's return in that regard. Maybe only Ouros did, as he was imprisoned by Amon, the other Xel'Naga at Ulnar didn't.

    As for the whole falling into Amon's trap at Zerus back then, technically the Xel'Naga won that battle, as Amon was defeated and sent back into the Void, and Duran was the only one of his servants who survived. Maybe the other Xel'Naga just underestimated Duran.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Did the Xel'Naga Foresee Their Defeat?

    The cynic in me is crying out to say it's just blatant author conceit to get the plot moving where they want it to, but I guess everyone here knows that by now and besides, that's not fun! So here goes...

    Quote Originally Posted by Visions of Khas View Post
    But how are they so accurate?
    Given the shakiness of Xel'nagan foresight (and the inherent paradoxical nature of such a thing), it could just be that what you deem as being "accurate" is more along the lines of it just being awfully "coincidental". Like, maybe it wasn't really supposed to depict Kerrigan back when it was first made, it's just that recent events gave those carvings a current context - you know, brains like to find patterns in things where none exists. And yeah, it does seem kinda "convenient" and is borderline giving credence to the cynical author conceit explanation but we can't rule this possibility out as an in-universe explanation.

    Then again, the Xel'naga are supposed to be gods, so all of it could be divine providence as you've indicated - including their own deaths by Amon. Along those lines, it could also be that it was only Ouros who had actual foresight and that he was responsible for putting out all the clues before or when during Amon was uplifting the Protoss and Zerg. Why he didn't just tell the Xel'Naga straight off at any earlier time is anyone's guess though (maybe his foresight saw that telling the Xel'Naga of Amon's treachery led to the total obliteration of the cycle/prevented Kerrigan from being the only solution?).

    Amon must have then imprisoned Ouros around the time he was uplifting the Zerg, depriving the greater Xel'Naga his foreknowledge of Amon's greater plans against them (ie: wiping them all out). Ouros being the only one with foresight would also give a possible explanation as to why Amon would even keep Ouros alive for all this time. Course, just like Amon underestimates his control over the Zerg and Protoss, he underestimated the mastery of manipulation that was Ouros as well.
    Yes, that's right! That is indeed ME on the right.


    _______________________________________________

  4. #4

    Default Re: Did the Xel'Naga Foresee Their Defeat?

    This just goes back to having put Ouros in the game, Blizzard should have actually spent more time to explain about him and why he did what he did. Hell, even if Ouros did try to warn the other Xel'Naga and his warnings were rejected, it's still an explanation.

    With Ouros being the only one knowing what he's planning, you'd think Amon would have just killed him right away so that he couldn't warn anyone. This goes back to my thoughts on the other Xel'Naga imprisoned Amon in a Void location where the hostile Void energies would kill him, and Amon was forced to keep Ouros alive in order to drain his essence so he could keep HIMSELF alive.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Did the Xel'Naga Foresee Their Defeat?

    Quote Originally Posted by ragnarok View Post
    This just goes back to having put Ouros in the game, Blizzard should have actually spent more time to explain about him and why he did what he did.
    Ouros' value in the narrative is as a plot twist. Having to explain about him or to know about him earlier would've reduced the impact of the reveal. He's supposed to be "not the point" to the story (Kerrigan and defeating Amon is) even though his very nature in the narrative is fueled by fridge logic.

    Quote Originally Posted by ragnarok View Post
    With Ouros being the only one knowing what he's planning, you'd think Amon would have just killed him right away so that he couldn't warn anyone. This goes back to my thoughts on the other Xel'Naga imprisoned Amon in a Void location where the hostile Void energies would kill him, and Amon was forced to keep Ouros alive in order to drain his essence so he could keep HIMSELF alive.
    Nah, Amon thrives in the Void. He is at his most powerful there and draws power from it. It's why Ouros can't do anything while he's imprisoned there. If Amon was drawing power from Ouros, Ouros should have just killed himself and gotten the others to. I think it makes more sense if Ouros had some inherent value that Amon doesn't have as to the reason why he hasn't been killed - the foresight I mentioned is something that Amon can potentially use.
    Yes, that's right! That is indeed ME on the right.


    _______________________________________________

  6. #6
    TheEconomist's Avatar Lord of Economics
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    Default Re: Did the Xel'Naga Foresee Their Defeat?

    He's an Elder Thing from a hundred different Lovecraft rip offs. Explaining him would be like explaining Dwarves, Elves, or Dragons.



    Rest In Peace, Old Friend.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Did the Xel'Naga Foresee Their Defeat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    Ouros' value in the narrative is as a plot twist. Having to explain about him or to know about him earlier would've reduced the impact of the reveal. He's supposed to be "not the point" to the story (Kerrigan and defeating Amon is) even though his very nature in the narrative is fueled by fridge logic.
    No, I call that Blizzard was too damn lazy to bother trying to explain all this to the fans, so they decided that the fans might overlook this, and therefore they didn't have to explain it at all.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Did the Xel'Naga Foresee Their Defeat?

    I'm thinking that the lack of explanation for Ouros is merely because he wasn't actually conceived as a character until late in proceedings (and probably as a reaction and explanation for "Tassadar" in WoL). He was just an expedient way to finish off the prophecy plot point about Kerrigan being the "chosen one" to defeat Amon. One of the (many) reasons the epilogue is terribad is because everything is just rushed and squeezed in as an attempt to tie the 3 disparate entries that was Sc2 into a unified "trilogy".

    You can still call it "lazy" to be sure though. It's just that it's not lazy in terms of them not giving out details (since it's difficult to know if there were even details beyond what it was) but lazy in terms of the initial conceptualisation and final use of Ouros.
    Yes, that's right! That is indeed ME on the right.


    _______________________________________________

  9. #9

    Default Re: Did the Xel'Naga Foresee Their Defeat?

    Kind of makes me wonder about Zeratul's and the Overmind's vision of an apocalyptic future. Doubtless it was granted by Ourous; but was it a simulated future meant as a scare tactic, or a clear view of an alternate timeline?

    Whom else saw these visions? Some Terran cults were exposed to it. Does Amon not have the same ability? Kerrigan claimed to be able to see multiple timelines when she ascended.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Did the Xel'Naga Foresee Their Defeat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    I'm thinking that the lack of explanation for Ouros is merely because he wasn't actually conceived as a character until late in proceedings (and probably as a reaction and explanation for "Tassadar" in WoL). He was just an expedient way to finish off the prophecy plot point about Kerrigan being the "chosen one" to defeat Amon. One of the (many) reasons the epilogue is terribad is because everything is just rushed and squeezed in as an attempt to tie the 3 disparate entries that was Sc2 into a unified "trilogy".

    You can still call it "lazy" to be sure though. It's just that it's not lazy in terms of them not giving out details (since it's difficult to know if there were even details beyond what it was) but lazy in terms of the initial conceptualisation and final use of Ouros.
    Personally I never saw Ouros as any initial concept on Blizzard's part, more of an afterthought or something. Likely they felt "Oh we need to explain why Tassadar survived all this time." That part they got right in that it wasn't the real Tassadar, but they didn't realize by creating Ouros they had to explain him too, and why he wasn't able to do more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Visions of Khas View Post
    Kind of makes me wonder about Zeratul's and the Overmind's vision of an apocalyptic future. Doubtless it was granted by Ourous; but was it a simulated future meant as a scare tactic, or a clear view of an alternate timeline?

    Whom else saw these visions? Some Terran cults were exposed to it. Does Amon not have the same ability? Kerrigan claimed to be able to see multiple timelines when she ascended.
    It depends, VoK. What I think happened is Amon had the ability to see into the future, but he couldn't see far enough, which means all he could see was the Overmind was going to defy him, but he couldn't see just what the Overmind was really planning to do.

    As for it being a mere scare tactic, I doubt it. After Skygeirr, Izsha made it clear that the swarm had been Amon's tool, and he'd use them again, to which Kerrigan promised she's make preparations against him as soon as Mengsk was dealt with.

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