All the Good Times

[Nissa]

So I'm sitting in the library writing, listening to a playthrough of SC/BW. It's making me really excited about the game again, and I'm feeling all the stuff I played the first time I played it. So good. So good I just want to talk about how good it is with somebody.

(1) What is it about this game that makes it so exciting? You play certain games and don't care, but I'm instantly into this game, despite the wonky cutscenes and very simple story so far. Like, I'm instantly excited here, in a way I was basically indifferent the first time I saw WoL. What makes a game in general make a good first impression?

(2) Call me crazy, but why would they think that rescuing Duke is a bad idea? Even as a hostage, he's potentially useful. They act like it's the first sign of Mengsk losing his mind.

I'm rambling. Anyone can use this thread to talk about good times, or anything they want about the original games. I just want to talk about them.

[KaiserStratosTygo]

1. Fun gameplay where things don't snowball out of control in 8 seconds because of one battle won/lost, the story is more down to Earth than a lot of game stories so its more engaging

2.Not sure, Raynor I can understand but Kerrigan should know better.

[Nissa]

Well, I was talking about first impressions, though. Like, there are some games where you're instantly engaged, but others where you're just waiting for something to happen. Though it certainly didn't help that WoL began by putting a cheesy voiceover on the stuff we already saw from the trailer.

Part of SC's appeal probably had to do with player involvement. The player himself is actually the first character introduced in the story. Well, not counting the adjutant, I guess.

[Visions of Khas]

2.Not sure, Raynor I can understand but Kerrigan should know better.

There's one thing I don't understand about the fan community here. It's so obsessed with figuring everything out, which is laudable, but consistently fails to take emotion into account, only pure logic.

In Kerrigan's eyes, Mengsk is a noble but battered soul who spared her life and gave her new purpose. To Raynor, Mengsk is a questionable option, but his best bet at saving his colony. They're both aware of Duke's reputation, which is pretty damn bad; his approval rating is probably at Trump levels.

This makes it pretty clear that while Kerrigan would go along with Mengsk's plans, Raynor would be weary of him and Duke joining forces -- even if Duke's resources directly contribute to the Sons of Korhal.

[Nissa]

I kinda like Duke. No seriously. He's a terrible person, but his flaws come from the fact that he lets other people control his fate. What he cares about is power and survival, rather than some sort of ideal -- conquest for the Overmind, human domination for Mengsk, general morality for Raynor, ideal society for Aldaris, etc. He does what the Confederacy wants because he believes it will benefit him personally, then he goes with Mengsk because he knows it will benefit him perosnally, at least in terms of not getting killed by the Zerg. If Mengsk had been a genuinely good guy, I think Duke, by the sheer force of his "go-along" attitude, would probably have changed his ways, as then doing good would have resulted in his promotion.

[Visions of Khas]

I don't disagree with you there, Nissa. It's interesting how Duke would change, or if he would have changed, at Mengsk himself been more like Raynor. But I wonder if it would have made too much of a difference. If Mengsk's scruples were anything like Raynor's, Duke would probably see it as weakness and a hindrance to his own quest for power, and may have tried to usurp him.

[Nissa]

Nah, Duke seems like he would need additional motivation for that. He's not the kind of person to usurp, for various reasons. Not the least of which is that usurpers will possibly be hated by the locals, or, if they are loved, are forced to bear expectations. If Duke ever were to try and take the throne from a weak Mengsk, then it would be after he let Mengsk self-implode and just picked up the pieces afterward -- he would make little deliberate action in destroying Mengsk. More likely he would simply let someone else usurp (which is pretty much what he did in SC with the Confederacy) and then go along with whatever he could with them.

Duke, imo, realizes his lack of idealistic leadership. Like, he knows about battlefields, logistics, and troop training, but civilian leadership eludes both his ability and desires. Thus, he wouldn't really want to be the leader of any given nation.

[Visions of Khas]

That's a good analysis of him, Nissa. Duke is boorish, but he has self-knowledge. He wants power, but he knows his own limitations, and he has no desire to exceed those limits. He's the perennial enforcer, the power behind the throne. If there's political fallout, he wants it directed away from himself at all costs.

When I said usurp, I had something else in mind and I should have been more clear. I imagined a scenario where Mengsk was more like Raynor in idealism. If Duke had any doubts about the lengths Mengsk would go to achieve victory, he would have turned the entirety of the Sons of Korhal over to the Confederacy. But Duke recognized the Confederacy's crumbling power structure, and saw more benefit to toppling it rather than trying to prop it up. He saw promise in Mengsk. This is why, when offered a cabinet position (what kind of terrorist talks about cabinet positions in an escalating war?!) Duke didn't waver in defecting.


This is one reason I love StarCraft. You don't think it focuses much on characters or motives, but it's all there. The characters are consistent and have their own arcs and desires; it's just not all spelled out. It was a subtle "Show but don't tell."

[Nissa]

Yeah, it was really subtle. Every time I start thinking about a different character, they become more interesting and more deep. Characters shouldn't be props to hang story on. They should be the story.

Eh...I still don't see Duke turning in the Sons of Korhal in to anyone. That implies more initiative on his part. After all, it'd be much easier to simply just return to the Confederacy with some SoK plans. And, I think the kind of thing you're saying implies that Duke would have thought about it from that angle. "If Duke had any doubts about the lengths Mengsk would go to achieve victory" seems like a bad description to use. It's not about Duke doubting Mengsk's extremism, it's about him taking his guess on who'll pull through in the end. That, and given that the SoK are a bunch of rebels, it's probably not that easy for anyone to hand them over.

[KaiserStratosTygo]

There's one thing I don't understand about the fan community here. It's so obsessed with figuring everything out, which is laudable, but consistently fails to take emotion into account, only pure logic.

In Kerrigan's eyes, Mengsk is a noble but battered soul who spared her life and gave her new purpose. To Raynor, Mengsk is a questionable option, but his best bet at saving his colony. They're both aware of Duke's reputation, which is pretty damn bad; his approval rating is probably at Trump levels.

This makes it pretty clear that while Kerrigan would go along with Mengsk's plans, Raynor would be weary of him and Duke joining forces -- even if Duke's resources directly contribute to the Sons of Korhal.

Like I said, I understand Raynor having problems with this, but Kerrigan should understand the position of a rebellion by now, you don't get to be picky with your allies.