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Thread: The Last Jedi - Trailer

  1. #41

    Default Re: The Last Jedi - Trailer

    Quote Originally Posted by KaiserStratosTygo View Post
    I don't know where people are getting the "Luke is a prodigy" stuff as a defense for Rey from, a better example would be Anakin the 9 year old jesus in Episode 1, Luke is a horrible defense for Rey as he was pretty mediocre force wise for the vast majority of the series, his only real feat in Episode IV was changing the trajectory of a torpedo that was already heading towards a similar location.

    Not to mention the already talked about fact that Rey is a nobody with no genetic ties to previous powerful force users, nor did she have even the tiny bit of training that Luke did with Obi Wan. (and later with Yoda)
    I'd always assumed that the Force Awakens was leading to some big reveal about her as a person. Like she's an experiment, or just abnormally really good with the force, or something like that. Something where she's not really comparable to an ordinary disciple of the force.
    "Seeing Fenix once more perplexes me. I feel sadness, when I should feel joy."
    - Artanis.

  2. #42

    Default Re: The Last Jedi - Trailer

    That would assume some overarching story was planned and penned, which they didn't do for some absurd reason. They didn't go into this trilogy with a plan. At all.

  3. #43

    Default Re: The Last Jedi - Trailer

    ^ The "plan" was to make lots of money. It seems to be working.
    Yes, that's right! That is indeed ME on the right.


    _______________________________________________

  4. #44

    Default Re: The Last Jedi - Trailer

    Before I keep defending TLJ, I must say that I don't find the film WITHOUT major fault. The whole premise of the film is actually absurd in it's core concept, which I'm surprised wasn't actually covered in the HISHE. The initial premise is that the Resistance cannot outrun the First Order because they'll be able to quickly follow them and the Resistance fleet is running out of fuel. It's drilled into our minds that the Resistance has no mobility whatsoever... but the First Order have no such restrictions themselves. It's a wonder why the First Order bother to perform a "chase" and drag it out so long (even if we're supposed to think they were just wanting to toy with them in the beginning) when they don't really have to. There's nothing stopping the First Order from just warping right on top of the Resistance fleet and blowing them to smithereens in the very first minutes into the film. I was actually waiting for this to be addressed the whole time throughout the film but it never did. Anyways, onward...
    It's like when they attack the cave. Why do they bother dropping from so far away? They could just drop their stuff in front of the gate and be done with it.

    The aim is also to lose as few ships as possible since it potentially increases their chance of survival. The remaining fleet still has to be used as a shield and a rear-guard defensive action for the transports, so they can't afford to lose too many before they get within range of the planet.
    You still have 2 ships left to do that and honestly I'm not even sure that argument makes sense because blocking the shots in such a large space is probably impossible after some point. Plus, you don't need a rear guard if the threat is eliminated. Your chances of surviving are 100% if the threat is eliminated.

    It's possible that if they ever did consider ramming as an effective technique, only the resistance flagship itself would've been of considerable size to withstand enough damage to even begin doing that maneuver and do damage to the massive first order flagship. All the other ships would've been picked off and destroyed easily before they could turn around. Obviously, they wouldn't have wanted to sacrifice their flagship too early.
    As far as I remember, the other ships were very similar to the flagship and could sustain a fair amount of damage as well.

    you'd have to question why do SW spaceships even need to have manual controls or pilots at all. But no, we don't see people complaining about that, do we?
    Because the clone wars demonstrated that Humans > machines at war in this universe which is probably a consequence of the force. Auto pilot is not the same thing as a human-like ai either. Maybe the tech for human-like ai is very expensive. Regardless, the tech to do these things (turn the ship around, initiate lightspeed) on autopilot has been shown to exist in the past.


    Because otherwise it would draw the First Orders attention that they're planning to evacuate to the planet. The fleet has to crawl on by to avoid suspicion that they're planning to evacuate to the planet. If they just suddenly jumped to within distance of the planet, the First Order would know that something would be going on because of the conceit that the First Order will know where they've jumped to.
    It's not like they can go there without being noticed in the first place. Slowly getting there does not change the outcome because they enemy will know the plan as soon as it is executed either way.

    Not talking about Yoda and Kenobi in their prime. We don't know if they had awesome powers when they were young before they were noticed by a Jedi recruiter. I'd imagine they would've displayed some prodigious ability for a Jedi to eventually recruit them afterall. That "magical ace-pilot" ability is but one way this Force potential is manifested - as is shown in Anakin and Lukes case.

    Also, the apparent powers of Force sensitive are not are not related to actual training/skills of a Jedi but to the innate ability of the Force sensitive to use the Force at a whim. Think of Force sensitives as like the Protoss being innate psionic individuals. Protoss can perform telekinetic abilities and cast psi storms without training but are much better at focusing and utilising such powers with training. This is the case with Rey - she has raw ability that can be used, but it hasn't fully been honed and trained. The only skill of a properly trained Jedi that she displayed was the mind trick on Daniel Craig's stormtrooper - but given that she's been a survivalist her whole life and had to learn things quickly (cos otherwise she wouldn't even be here), one can use that to conceivably handwave that away by saying she learnt that from all the mind-probing that Kylo was doing on her prior to that display of hers.

    If you're still not convinced then maybe we could just fallback on her being the "chosen one" of this generation since "why not?" It's apparently a thing in that universe afterall.
    Anakin and Luke should be the limit of what is possible without training because one is Jesus and the other one is his son. Rey demonstrated that she can do more than them with less training. As you say, the only explanation is that she must be the new and improved Jesus.. We'll see what JJ does.

    ^ The "plan" was to make lots of money. It seems to be working.
    Aye, can't argue with that!

  5. #45

    Default Re: The Last Jedi - Trailer

    Quote Originally Posted by sandwich_bird View Post
    It's like when they attack the cave. Why do they bother dropping from so far away? They could just drop their stuff in front of the gate and be done with it.
    Well, at least it's tonally consistent with what came before I guess. The First Order must either suck at tactics or just plainly like wasting time.

    Quote Originally Posted by sandwich_bird View Post
    You still have 2 ships left to do that and honestly I'm not even sure that argument makes sense because blocking the shots in such a large space is probably impossible after some point. Plus, you don't need a rear guard if the threat is eliminated. Your chances of surviving are 100% if the threat is eliminated.
    It's not all about blocking and taking shots for the transports. The fleet was intended to be used as a distraction and to taunt the First Order into focusing its attention on them. Having fewer ships by kamikazi-ing them early puts them in a risky/deadly position later on because they could fail and the First Order could wise up to the tactic and take appropriate countermeasures whilst having fewer ships to keep the First Order busy when the evacuation begins. The kamikaze tactic worked the first and only time it was used because it was a genuine surprise/unexpected move.

    Also, the First Order weren't "eliminated" with that kamikaze attack. They still were able to muster enough forces to land and assault the planet afterward. The kamikaze tactic was really only to buy more time by throwing the First Order into momentary chaos.

    Quote Originally Posted by sandwich_bird View Post
    Because the clone wars demonstrated that Humans > machines at war in this universe which is probably a consequence of the force. Auto pilot is not the same thing as a human-like ai either. Maybe the tech for human-like ai is very expensive. Regardless, the tech to do these things (turn the ship around, initiate lightspeed) on autopilot has been shown to exist in the past.
    Sure, I can understand the need for pilots in small, fighter craft but yet you still see teams of pilots and controllers and "bridge" areas for large, un-maneuverable starships. So if AI can do such things on such on a capital ship, surely all those people being around are merely for decoration, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by sandwich_bird View Post
    It's not like they can go there without being noticed in the first place. Slowly getting there does not change the outcome because they enemy will know the plan as soon as it is executed either way.
    Maybe they weren't making a direct line to the planet but to approach it close enough to give the transports a viable chance to debark to it but far enough to allow the First Order to not get suspicious. The plan is never revealed in detail since it's never let on what the logistics of it were.
    Yes, that's right! That is indeed ME on the right.


    _______________________________________________

  6. #46

    Default Re: The Last Jedi - Trailer

    Quote Originally Posted by Visions of Khas View Post
    That would assume some overarching story was planned and penned, which they didn't do for some absurd reason. They didn't go into this trilogy with a plan. At all.
    Which is sad, because this was one of the major reasons why the prequels failed: money > planning.

    I dunno, I kinda think JJ had a plan, or at least half of one. There were so many unanswered questions in the first film that somebody had to have an answer to some of them.
    "Seeing Fenix once more perplexes me. I feel sadness, when I should feel joy."
    - Artanis.

  7. #47

    Default Re: The Last Jedi - Trailer

    I dunno, I kinda think JJ had a plan, or at least half of one. There were so many unanswered questions in the first film that somebody had to have an answer to some of them.
    TBF, JJ has a reputation for throwing random mysteries into a story without any planned resolution. A lot of the time he simply makes things up on the fly for the simple sake of having a mystery, logic be damned.

    I think Ryan Johnson was too concerned about defying the viewers' expectations. I found that, after watching the film the first time around -- and thoroughly shutting down the overly-analytical centers of my brain -- I felt a curious... nothing. I felt hollow. RJ was so concerned about defying expectations that he failed to stir emotion. On successive viewings, a lot of the plot points make logical sense: for example, Luke denied Kylo the kill he sought by not facing him directly, showing that Luke had taken his experience in the Dagobah cave to heart. (As Tassadar said, "So long as you remain so predictable, I need not face you at all.") At the same time, RJ denied the audience the sense of fulfillment they craved; it would have been amazing to see Luke go out in a blaze of glory. Hell, the HISHE video I posted with Luke freezing the walkers' blast bolts? I thought that was how things were going to go down -- and I was tremendously let down when it didn't.

    On the other hand, does RJ, as a story teller, owe that to his audience? Which route would have made for better story telling? That right there is an interesting debate. Is it better to stir emotion in the audience, or to stay true to the characters?
    Last edited by Visions of Khas; 02-22-2018 at 11:23 AM.
    Aaand sold.


    Be it through hallowed grounds or lands of sorrow
    The Forger's wake is bereft and fallow

    Is the residuum worth the cost of destruction and maiming;
    Or is the shaping a culling and exercise in taming?

    The road's goal is the Origin of Being
    But be wary through what thickets it winds.

  8. #48

    Default Re: The Last Jedi - Trailer

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    The kamikaze tactic worked the first and only time it was used because it was a genuine surprise/unexpected move.
    This is assuming that there's something that you can do about it. So long as you remain static, you're screwed. Blocking or dodging it is the equivalent of a human vs a bullet but much much worst because we're talking about FTL here. There's nothing you can do against it other than not being there in the first place. This brings us back to my main complaint about this whole thing; it should never be a viable move. It's just too overpowered and changes completely how star battles work.

    Also, the First Order weren't "eliminated" with that kamikaze attack. They still were able to muster enough forces to land and assault the planet afterward. The kamikaze tactic was really only to buy more time by throwing the First Order into momentary chaos.
    Well that's another plot hole/writing flaw for you. I have no idea how it went from "ship split in 2" to massive force deployment on the ground.

    The plan is never revealed in detail since it's never let on what the logistics of it were.
    And another one right there! There needs to be more explanations. Seriously, this whole plot arc isn't good at all...


    Sure, I can understand the need for pilots in small, fighter craft but yet you still see teams of pilots and controllers and "bridge" areas for large, un-maneuverable starships. So if AI can do such things on such on a capital ship, surely all those people being around are merely for decoration, right?
    That's a fair point but then I would ask why doesn't Holdo ,who's not a trained crew member afaik, need anyone else to complete the maneuver if these ships need all that personal to be piloted? Surely, if she can do it alone, so can almost anyone.

    It seems that most of the personnel is mostly there to relay tactical information and analysis.




    Quote Originally Posted by VoK
    TBF, JJ has a reputation for throwing random mysteries into a story without any planned resolution. A lot of the time he simply makes things up on the fly for the simple sake of having a mystery, logic be damned.
    No jokes, that's the guy who started Lost. No need to say more.

    Hell, the HISHE video I posted with Luke freezing the walkers' blast bolts? I thought that was how things were going to go down -- and I was tremendously let down when it didn't.
    To me, Luke only had to do "something" impressive. And he did! I feel like it stayed true to the character. Him randomly dying after though.. I have mixed feeling about it. I'm "ok" with the concept but the movie should have clearly shown us that this was physically draining Luke instead of just killing him once he was done.

    Is it better to stir emotion in the audience, or to stay true to the characters?
    To correctly stir emotion, you need to limit all the inconsistencies that would break immersion. If you don't stay true to the characters, you'll quickly find that the audience is less impacted by whatever dramatic moment you throw at it. So it can't be one or the other because you need one for the other.

    rambling: From the psychological perspective of a character, I feel like people are usually unfair in their expectations. It seems most people usually expect characters to always act consistently short of dramatic game changing events. This is contrary to real life where I find we make many actions that are contrary to what would be our expected persona. This is the realistic depth that people usually complain is lacking but when it is displayed, they'll say the actions aren't true to the character. I'm an offender of this myself which can be seen in this very thread. I did rant about the Asian chick move on Finn but in reality, it is 100% possible. All that to say that I think we never really want realism, we want surrealism. Something that makes enough sense to all our cognitive bias basically. It's not about staying true to the character in a realistic and logical way but staying true to what we think the truth is.

  9. #49

    Default Re: The Last Jedi - Trailer

    To me, Luke only had to do "something" impressive. And he did! I feel like it stayed true to the character. Him randomly dying after though.. I have mixed feeling about it. I'm "ok" with the concept but the movie should have clearly shown us that this was physically draining Luke instead of just killing him once he was done.
    I agree. Maybe we could have had indications earlier in the film of an underlying infirmity; he gets winded too easily, or even the slightest use of the Force leads to exhaustion. I mean, I understood why he died at the time, but it still felt underwhelming.

    From the psychological perspective of a character, I feel like people are usually unfair in their expectations. It seems most people usually expect characters to always act consistently short of dramatic game changing events.

    I think RJ was also trying to push this with the fact the Jedi aren't mythical superbeings, something even the people of a galaxy far away didn't understand. So Luke, only a man, gave the galaxy something they needed in a time of darkness: not a man, but a myth.

    All that to say that I think we never really want realism, we want surrealism.
    That's a good way to put it, and I think is the big thing about TLJ that's dividing people. Some people felt it was refreshing to see a little less heroism and a little more humanity in the movie -- while others were turned off to the movie for that very reason.
    Aaand sold.


    Be it through hallowed grounds or lands of sorrow
    The Forger's wake is bereft and fallow

    Is the residuum worth the cost of destruction and maiming;
    Or is the shaping a culling and exercise in taming?

    The road's goal is the Origin of Being
    But be wary through what thickets it winds.

  10. #50

    Default Re: The Last Jedi - Trailer

    Quote Originally Posted by Nissa View Post
    Which is sad, because this was one of the major reasons why the prequels failed: money > planning.
    Really? I think the prequels "failed" (using that term very loosely here) was because it was too controlled and planned out by George Lucas. I had heard somewhere that Lucas wasn't entirely happy during the production of the original trilogy due to limitations of tech and clashing opinions whereas by the time the prequels happened he had built enough clout to have much more creative control over how the prequels developed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Visions of Khas View Post
    On the other hand, does RJ, as a story teller, owe that to his audience?
    I dunno. Abrams banked heavily into nostalgia and familiarity in his take as a response to the prequels not having the feel of the originals - and got criticised for it. Johnson decides to respond to that and put his spin on it by attempting to make things fresh and unexpected to try and break the familiarity/sameness of TFA to the originals - and got heavily criticised by fans for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Visions of Khas View Post
    Which route would have made for better story telling? That right there is an interesting debate. Is it better to stir emotion in the audience, or to stay true to the characters?
    Both - or rather the illusion of both. The way to get either is to use conceits/tropes effectively to create willing suspension of disbelief. It's why it's an art I suppose.

    Quote Originally Posted by sandwich_bird View Post
    This is assuming that there's something that you can do about it. So long as you remain static, you're screwed. Blocking or dodging it is the equivalent of a human vs a bullet but much much worst because we're talking about FTL here. There's nothing you can do against it other than not being there in the first place. This brings us back to my main complaint about this whole thing; it should never be a viable move. It's just too overpowered and changes completely how star battles work.
    So... your point of contention seems to be that the ramming was done via FTL, not that the act of ramming in general was performed? Would you have accepted it if they rammed at lightspeed/not FTL speed instead? Because really, ramming in general is always a viable option but it's not really a good tactic to employ generally.

    Quote Originally Posted by sandwich_bird View Post
    Well that's another plot hole/writing flaw for you. I have no idea how it went from "ship split in 2" to massive force deployment on the ground.
    Because the First Order had more than just their capitol ship chasing them? They do seem to have a numbers advantage over the Rebels/Resistance afterall.

    Quote Originally Posted by sandwich_bird View Post
    And another one right there! There needs to be more explanations. Seriously, this whole plot arc isn't good at all...
    It's a conceit for sure, but name me any piece of fiction that doesn't use this tactic of denying information to the audience only to reveal an "aha"/payoff moment later and I'll gladly accede to your position.

    Quote Originally Posted by sandwich_bird View Post
    That's a fair point but then I would ask why doesn't Holdo ,who's not a trained crew member afaik, need anyone else to complete the maneuver if these ships need all that personal to be piloted? Surely, if she can do it alone, so can almost anyone.
    Conservation of detail? Maybe there were some volunteers loyal to Holdo that gladly sacrificed themselves to assist her. You have to keep in mind that if there were volunteers that remained, the idea was to keep floating on by and drawing the First Order attention, not to ram the enemy.

    Quote Originally Posted by sandwich_bird View Post
    To me, Luke only had to do "something" impressive. And he did! I feel like it stayed true to the character. Him randomly dying after though.. I have mixed feeling about it. I'm "ok" with the concept but the movie should have clearly shown us that this was physically draining Luke instead of just killing him once he was done.
    I also felt something was amiss about his abrupt "death". It would've been interesting if Luke's death was due to him deciding to die/become one with the force at that moment now that he's redeemed himself, rather than just because he was exhausted from the effort.
    Yes, that's right! That is indeed ME on the right.


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