The Last Jedi - Trailer

[Turalyon]

Eh, TFA gets flak for being too similar to the original series when it was made ostensibly in response to the prequels being too far removed from the feels of the original. Then, TLJ gets flak for being different to TFA and the originals when it probably was made this way in response to the reaction that TFA was unoriginal. We fans are a fickle bunch.

I quite like the subversions that take place in TLJ because it dares to do something different and not just for the sake of spectacle (like what the prequels seem to be and what TFA almost threatens to be). The challenging of the Jedi ideals by Luke in TLJ and the concept of there being gray (which goes beyond Jedi or Sith ideals) reminds me of two of my favourite SW characters in the old Knights of the Old Republic games, Jolee Bindo and Kreia.

I don't have much hope for the Solo prequel. It's going to suffer from the weight of expectation surrounding the main character and them never ever being met, much in the way the prequels turned out with its focus on Anakin. At least it'll be only one film and get to the point quicker than the prequels did. I much prefer the style of Rogue One in terms of SW prequels in that we know the outcome of the characters for sure but we don't have any expectations about the characters themselves because they're mostly unknown. It makes the whole thing a lot more interesting because it then becomes not about getting to that final outcome but rather, why we should care about getting to that final outcome.

[TheEconomist]

Let's be honest here. TFA wasn't similiar to A New Hope, it was the same movie.

Of course, a fan base as large as Star Wars is going to be piss large numbers of people off with any decision, and therefore, the fan base will seem schizophrenic, however, it's not unreasonable to want a Star Wars that feels like the originals but isn't the same fucking movie repackaged. I think The Last Jedi does this, but then, again I'm only a passive fan of Star Wars, my girlfriend, a huge Star Wars fan, has extremely mixed feelings about it.

[sandwich_bird]

Then, TLJ gets flak for being different to TFA and the originals when it probably was made this way in response to the reaction that TFA was unoriginal. We fans are a fickle bunch.

I think The Last Jedi does this, but then, again I'm only a passive fan of Star Wars

I'm also a passive fan, but the problem with TLJ is not that it's too different, the problem is that the writing is just bad. I'm surprised that you'd even praise it Tura, I would have expected you to pull out the Doylsit/watsonian stuff Because god knows if there's a story that suffers from overly Doylist writing, it's TLJ.

[Nissa]

It basically came down to, "The Jedi'sv actions led to Darth Vader." There's a little more nuance than that; Luke admits the Jedi of old were complacent and arrogant and unchanging, leading to their defeat at the hands of Sidious and Vader.

Uh...that's like saying that computers lead to adultery so we should get rid of computers. Anything that's genuinely good is capable of being genuinely bad.

But now you're thinking, "Well, what about YOUR contribution to the Jedi order, Luke?" To which Luke hems and haws before finally admiting "I done goofed with Kylo," and is running from his problems... Which, honestly, is kinda what Jedi Masters do. This, however, is key in humanizing the Jedi; Luke goes into detail about how Jedi are frequently venerated as demigods. The biggest theme of the movie is about humanizing both sides of the conflict, and humanity consists largely of failure. Lots and Lots of failure.

I didn't like TLJ on my first viewing, but it got better on successive viewings.

How would Luke even know about that arrogance stuff? He never met any Jedi besides Kenobi and Vader. On what does he base his comments? That kind of thing automatically makes the prequels relevant, when they really should have pretended that the prequels didn't exist.

Also, imo the Force is the only interesting thing about Star Wars. Without the Force, it's basically nothing.

[Turalyon]

I'm also a passive fan, but the problem with TLJ is not that it's too different, the problem is that the writing is just bad. I'm surprised that you'd even praise it Tura, I would have expected you to pull out the Doylsit/watsonian stuff Because god knows if there's a story that suffers from overly Doylist writing, it's TLJ.

Well, I am the guy that likes the Overmind campaign/Zerg in Sc1 despite it being the weakest in terms of narrative and plotting, so I'm hardly the best judge of things.

I'm curious to know what you mean here though. I don't always hold that overt/observable Doylist influence on a work is necessarily a sign of bad writing. Afterall, there are auteur creators (Quentin Tarantino for example) whose works that can still be considered "good" in terms of writing despite them having a recognisable style, theme and influence that is all obviously Doylist in nature. And, there are some works that are much better due to Doylist reasons - like Ridley Scott's version of Blade Runner compared to the theatrical version for example.

I can definitely say that there are a lot of subverted expectations in TLJ though. Sure, some of them are a little forced and Doylist in derivation but they're not entirely out of the realm of possibility on a Watsonian level since it is the Star Wars universe afterall, where magical and crazy happenstance is de riguer.

[sandwich_bird]

Well, I am the guy that likes the Overmind campaign/Zerg in Sc1 despite it being the weakest in terms of narrative and plotting, so I'm hardly the best judge of things.

I'm curious to know what you mean here though. I don't always hold that overt/observable Doylist influence on a work is necessarily a sign of bad writing. Afterall, there are auteur creators (Quentin Tarantino for example) whose works that can still be considered "good" in terms of writing despite them having a recognisable style, theme and influence that is all obviously Doylist in nature. And, there are some works that are much better due to Doylist reasons - like Ridley Scott's version of Blade Runner compared to the theatrical version for example.

I can definitely say that there are a lot of subverted expectations in TLJ though. Sure, some of them are a little forced and Doylist in derivation but they're not entirely out of the realm of possibility on a Watsonian level since it is the Star Wars universe afterall, where magical and crazy happenstance is de riguer.

It is not necessarily a bad thing as you say but there are specific contexts necessary to make it work. Even then, not every Doylist influences are automatically permissible because you opened the gate. To go back to TLJ, things like the remote force ghost or Leia weird space physics are permitted. Things like Oldo(?) ramming her ship and deus ex machina secret cave backdoors are not permitted. That's just god awful writing.

[Turalyon]

Things like Oldo(?) ramming her ship and deus ex machina secret cave backdoors are not permitted. That's just god awful writing.

Interesting. Why do you think those things are not permitted?

Holdo only considers and does the ramming maneuver as a last resort since her tactic of secretly sending away the transport ships (the remnants of the Resistance) whilst keeping the First Order fleet attention on her was failing. She had already taken on the role of sacrificial lamb by sending everyone away on those transports... and they were being targeted and blown apart anyway! She was already dead with that initial gambit and now even that was going to hell in a hand-basket. She had no recourse but to take some action to try and ensure some of those transports got to the planet. Her firing back would've done nothing since the First Order fleet knew the Resistance was in those transports and would've remained focusing fire on those transports.

What's so DEM about a cave backdoor? It is a rebel hold-out afterall, you'd expect them to have contingencies rather than have one mainline exit to their bases in case they get raided. It's potentially foreshadowed by the presence of those native crystal dogs things that then "disappear" because they found a way out and the appearance of "Luke" (up until he's later revealed to be a force projection that is), who would have had to realistically enter that hold-out via a backdoor (if he was indeed a physical presence) since the main gate was shut.

[Mislagnissa]

I found TLJ to be a cluster frag. It is full of cliches, it overturns cliches, key plot points would not have happened if not for idiotic behavior (How It Should Have Ended had a field day with this), there is so much uneven pacing, seemingly interesting plot threads go nowhere, major characters are walking stereotypes with little depth, most of the new characters die off to motivate the returning characters, plot threads introduced earlier go nowhere or are violently severed, plot devices and deus ex machinas show up when convenient.

Honestly the only part I found entertaining were the racist nerds online complaining about the diversity quota. I had no problem with the characters including a black dude, an Asian chick and a Latino. What I did have a problem with was that they were bland. Even if the racist nerds got their pipe dream of all-white casting, the characters would still be bland. The obvious lack of care given to the tokens makes the writers look racist.

I am hopeful that the Wrinkle in Time movie will have better written characters, given that women writers are generally better at that than men. Having Mrs. Who quote Justin Bieber was godawful, though. It makes her look vapid, outdated and out of touch with reality. If they had to make her spit word salad I would have preferred her picking up radio stations and stitching together random song lyrics to communicate, or spouting endearing nonsense like "That'll put marzipan in your pie plate, bingo," "Mists of dreams drip along the nascent echo and love no more," or my personal favorite "Do you know what you were when I was young? You were the muck at our feet! We called you the ooze that eats itself. You were pretty at night, you sparkled and you stank! You still stink of it!"

[sandwich_bird]

Interesting. Why do you think those things are not permitted?

Regarding Holdo:

If it's that easy to blow up a star destroyer, why don't anyone ever do that? Why do they even bother with conventional space battles when they can just launch any crappy ship at a hyperspeed and destroy anything? In thousands of years of space warfare, this never happened. It's assumed by the audience that it was just impossible because why else would you not use a strategy that obvious? By allowing Holdo to do this you mess up the entire fake reality that allows for star wars to work the way it works.

Why not do this before the other ships get blow up? Why even consider this as a last resort? Again, if it's possible, what kind of garbage commander would not think of this first?

Why does she has to pilot it? Hello, this is starwars, everyone and their grandma has auto pilot droids. Why not use them?

She uses all the fuel for the last transport ships but still has enough fuel to launch in hyperspeed? Are star destroyers big enough to be hit in hyperspeed?

You can come up with all kind of explanations for this stuff but the real reason why this happened is because the crappy writer wanted you to feel bad about hating Holdo before. He wanted a heroic drama moment. This, at the expense of way too much conceit.

Regarding the cave:

"the robot has analyzed the cave system, there is no way in or out other than the big door. We shall make our last stand!"
*sends crappy anime ships in an attempt to destroy the canon thingy*
*Finn decides to sacrifice himself*
*Asian chick who specifically state that she highly value heroic sacrifices rams Finn in a way that would obviously kill them both*
*both of them magically teleport back in the cave*
*no last stand actually take place*
"well I guess we're screwed guys! Oh wait! The magic foxes have decided at this specific moment to show us this obvious large opening that we were too retarded to see 10 mins before! Brilliant! It will surely bring us out to a blocked exit where our untrained friend with master jedi powers will open the way"

[Visions of Khas]

I'mma jus' leave dis here...