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Thread: The Last Jedi - Trailer

  1. #51

    Default Re: The Last Jedi - Trailer

    So... your point of contention seems to be that the ramming was done via FTL, not that the act of ramming in general was performed? Would you have accepted it if they rammed at lightspeed/not FTL speed instead? Because really, ramming in general is always a viable option but it's not really a good tactic to employ generally.
    Lightspeed is just as op. My point of contention is that ramming can be done at any speed much faster than the speed we usually see ships use during space battles AND that it has such an impact. If a FTL ram would be possible but would NOT be as devastating, I'd be ok with. If ramming is devastating but cannot be done at FTL speed, I'm ok with it.

    Because the First Order had more than just their capitol ship chasing them? They do seem to have a numbers advantage over the Rebels/Resistance afterall.
    Maybe you forgot but, when Holdo rams the main ship, she also destroys the entire fleet. This means that most likely this is another fleet that arrived and dropped stuff. I think it would have been better to show a bit of that instead of just "spawning" the new army.

    It's a conceit for sure, but name me any piece of fiction that doesn't use this tactic of denying information to the audience only to reveal an "aha"/payoff moment later and I'll gladly accede to your position.
    As always, there are good ways and bad ways to do this. In the plan's reveal, I should damn well understand why she thought it was a good idea to drag this out but unfortunately, we don't get anything because truth is, there is nothing to get. We're not denied information because that information doesn't exist; hence the plot hole. It's more of an "ok....?" moment than a "aha" moment if you ask me

    Conservation of detail? Maybe there were some volunteers loyal to Holdo that gladly sacrificed themselves to assist her. You have to keep in mind that if there were volunteers that remained, the idea was to keep floating on by and drawing the First Order attention, not to ram the enemy.
    They were hiding under a desk or something? You clearly see her alone in the command area. That would be an atrocious use of conservation of detail anyways. Having volunteers would enhance the drama if anything and at 0 to very little additional screen time too.

    Some people felt it was refreshing to see a little less heroism and a little more humanity in the movie -- while others were turned off to the movie for that very reason.
    That's weird to me. If anything, I'd like Star Wars to be more serious. I'm fine with the thematic of the film, I just hate the writing.

  2. #52

    Default Re: The Last Jedi - Trailer

    Quote Originally Posted by sandwich_bird View Post
    Lightspeed is just as op. My point of contention is that ramming can be done at any speed much faster than the speed we usually see ships use during space battles AND that it has such an impact. If a FTL ram would be possible but would NOT be as devastating, I'd be ok with. If ramming is devastating but cannot be done at FTL speed, I'm ok with it.
    Thing is, the minutiae behind how the ramming actually works, its speed and its end effect is kinda irrelevant to the plot progression, since either of those options you stated would still end up with what actually followed with the ram being FTL and devastating: the First Order was delayed enough due to this tactic for the Resistance to make it to the planet and form a "last defence". Heck, they could have it ram at normal thruster speed and do minimal damage and you'd still conceivably end up with the same result: Holdo being dead, the First Order delayed and in disarray from the surprise tactic for the Resistance transports to make it to the planet.

    As to the "devastating" effect, the consequence of it obviously wasn't that bad since Hux survived and the First Order were able to follow-up reasonably quickly by assaulting the planet.

    Quote Originally Posted by sandwich_bird View Post
    As always, there are good ways and bad ways to do this. In the plan's reveal, I should damn well understand why she thought it was a good idea to drag this out but unfortunately, we don't get anything because truth is, there is nothing to get. We're not denied information because that information doesn't exist; hence the plot hole. It's more of an "ok....?" moment than a "aha" moment if you ask me
    The Resistance had to "drag it out" to get closer to the planet Crait without drawing attention and reducing risk of exposing themselves too early. Also, we're never told how far Crait or Canto is relative to the fleet so whilst Finn was able to get to Canto and back comparatively quickly and Holdo didn't send out the evac transports to Crait earlier, one can infer that Canto was much closer/reachable with the transports than Crait was.

    The real issue, which I've already pointed out, is why the First Order is dragging this out since they have both advantage and initiative from the very beginning and fail to capitalise on either at any time. All I can come up with to explain this is that the First Order is just inept/idiotic - which Hux represents to a tee ironically.

    Quote Originally Posted by sandwich_bird View Post
    They were hiding under a desk or something? You clearly see her alone in the command area. That would be an atrocious use of conservation of detail anyways. Having volunteers would enhance the drama if anything and at 0 to very little additional screen time too.
    Maybe most of the other volunteers were in other parts of the ship to keep it running - like the engine room for example. It is a big ship you know.
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  3. #53

    Default Re: The Last Jedi - Trailer

    Heck, they could have it ram at normal thruster speed and do minimal damage and you'd still conceivably end up with the same result: Holdo being dead, the First Order delayed and in disarray from the surprise tactic for the Resistance transports to make it to the planet.
    Apart from questioning the lack of auto-pilot, I'd be ok with this if we forget everything else. I think I was clear that my issue with ramming at FTL and causing this much damage specifically is how it weakens the logic of space battles. I think that if it was that important to show that particular scene then it should have been done in a way that respects the unsaid logic of the universe. But anyways, guess I won't convince you


    As to the "devastating" effect, the consequence of it obviously wasn't that bad since Hux survived and the First Order were able to follow-up reasonably quickly by assaulting the planet.
    Huh, I don't even know how Hux survived that. You clearly see him blow up iirc. I don't even know how their ships can still function correctly after being split in 2 like that. You have to admit that what we see and what happens next is very contradictory.

    The real issue, which I've already pointed out, is why the First Order is dragging this out since they have both advantage and initiative from the very beginning and fail to capitalise on either at any time. All I can come up with to explain this is that the First Order is just inept/idiotic - which Hux represents to a tee ironically.
    Yes, that is also a very idiotic plot point. Was there ever a reason for this? They come out of hyperspace, then they have a small skirmish where Ben blows up Leia and then it kinda just dies down and the chase follows.. I can't remember how it turned to this.

  4. #54

    Default Re: The Last Jedi - Trailer

    Quote Originally Posted by sandwich_bird View Post
    Apart from questioning the lack of auto-pilot, I'd be ok with this if we forget everything else. I think I was clear that my issue with ramming at FTL and causing this much damage specifically is how it weakens the logic of space battles. I think that if it was that important to show that particular scene then it should have been done in a way that respects the unsaid logic of the universe. But anyways, guess I won't convince you
    I acknowledge the issue, but it still kinda depends on whether they knew such devastation could ever be wrought using such a tactic, let alone whether a tactic like that would ever be practically utilised and considered "good". Maybe the amount of damage is only worthwhile and possible for large capital ships and the reason why we don't see it happening before is because it's inefficient and a waste of resources. The Resistance can't resort to it because of their limited resources/numbers and because such sacrifices would be Pyrrhic victories anyway. The First Order won't resort to it because it's a waste of a perfectly good ship on "unworthy" enemies that they can swat away with normal firepower.

    Quote Originally Posted by sandwich_bird View Post
    Huh, I don't even know how Hux survived that. You clearly see him blow up iirc. I don't even know how their ships can still function correctly after being split in 2 like that. You have to admit that what we see and what happens next is very contradictory.
    Maybe it's a case of seeing is not believing lol. Oh, those giant cracks and intense light you see issuing from multiple First Order ships? Just a flesh wound.

    Quote Originally Posted by sandwich_bird View Post
    Yes, that is also a very idiotic plot point. Was there ever a reason for this? They come out of hyperspace, then they have a small skirmish where Ben blows up Leia and then it kinda just dies down and the chase follows.. I can't remember how it turned to this.
    No reason is ever given since we don't really see the First Order side that much. When we do, Hux is being somewhat of an imbecile, so I'm guessing that's the reason.

    Given that the premise/core of the film is about this chase, the film is completely idiotic in its base conception really. Knowing that, I checked part of my brain at the door before seeing it so maybe that's why I'm more accepting of its other flaws compared to other people. *shrug*
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  5. #55
    DonnyZeDoof's Avatar Junior Member
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    Default Re: The Last Jedi - Trailer

    Why was the genius hacker guy sitting in the cell on casino planet when he could have just gotten out and got a good job from all those rich people?

  6. #56

    Default Re: The Last Jedi - Trailer

    Why was the genius hacker guy sitting in the cell on casino planet when he could have just gotten out and got a good job from all those rich people?
    I kinda thought he was recovering from a hangover, or was going to pull some kind of prank on the guard, before Rose and Finn arrived.
    Aaand sold.


    Be it through hallowed grounds or lands of sorrow
    The Forger's wake is bereft and fallow

    Is the residuum worth the cost of destruction and maiming;
    Or is the shaping a culling and exercise in taming?

    The road's goal is the Origin of Being
    But be wary through what thickets it winds.

  7. #57

    Default Re: The Last Jedi - Trailer

    Why do they assume hackers have an instant knowledge of all operating systems across all galaxies

  8. #58
    Junior Member
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    Default Re: The Last Jedi - Trailer

    SC2 is not that bad anyway opinion is anybody's opinion

  9. #59

    Default Re: The Last Jedi - Trailer

    "Luke was able to change the direction of those torpedoes 90 degrees into that exhaust port! That's pretty amazing if you ask me..."
    COOL!

    Now compare that to Rey, who's able to more than that with no training whatsoever.

    "Luke was able to go toe-to-toe with a trained and experienced Sith Lord without much in the way of training"
    In Episode V, and he wasn't "toe to toe" he was losing that fight all the way through, Rey, in her first movie was able to not
    only "go toe to toe" with an experienced !notsith lord but also DEFEAT HIM.

    "I covered this previously. All Jedi (even the notable masters like Yoda and Kenobi) come from "nobodies" since they're supposed to be celibate (and are for the vast majority) and that they recruit random children that have force capabilities. The complaint about Rey being so good without training is due simple because of the fact she was busy trying to stay alive on her own for most of her life after being abandoned. Unlike Luke, who was a simple kid working and living a dull life on the farm, Rey had to learn to be independent in order to survive."
    Having to be independent does not give you the ability to automatically know the force abilities that TRAINED Jedi haven't completely mastered.

    It takes 3 Movies for Luke to be able to do what Rey did in one.

    Face it, she's a Mary Sue, Luke is not.

  10. #60

    Default Re: The Last Jedi - Trailer

    Quote Originally Posted by KaiserStratosTygo View Post
    Now compare that to Rey, who's able to more than that with no training whatsoever.
    The only "insane" force ability she exhibited before being trained was a mind trick on that stormtrooper... which she probably learnt from Kylo when he was mind probing her a moment before.

    Quote Originally Posted by KaiserStratosTygo View Post
    In Episode V, and he wasn't "toe to toe" he was losing that fight all the way through, Rey, in her first movie was able to not
    only "go toe to toe" with an experienced !notsith lord but also DEFEAT HIM.
    Come to think of it, it's not really a good comparison to make. Kylo was at a distinct advantage having copped a bowcaster blast in his side prior to that fight.

    Quote Originally Posted by KaiserStratosTygo View Post
    Face it, she's a Mary Sue, Luke is not.
    Meh, all the main characters in SW are Sue's/Stu's imo. I mean, hell, the concept of Force-wielders and what they can do are nothing more than blatant excuse for Sue-ness really. That's what the franchise is all about.
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