Exercise 01: Establishing the Status Quo

[ragnarok]

Mengsk was never shown to be like this. Instead the opposite. Like I said, he has been shown to take into his fold anyone he can use, and tend to keep them. He keeps duke even if Raynor and him agreed he was not to be trusted.

Well, Duke was always just a mindless zombie in many ways. At least that was how he was viewed upon in the SC Ghost Nova book. But then again, since that book came out in 2007, you can argue this was via the SC2 lore. But even from the SC1 lore I never felt Duke was very smart, and certainly he seemed largely devoid of a conscience.

[GnaReffotsirk]

Well, if we take anything from the books and sc2 as truth, what's the point in a rehash?

[Nissa]

Mengsk was never shown to be like this. Instead the opposite. Like I said, he has been shown to take into his fold anyone he can use, and tend to keep them. He keeps duke even if Raynor and him agreed he was not to be trusted.

I assume this idea about mengsk comes from sc2. Maybe he does turn to be like this, but at that time he wasn't shown as having that character.

Watch this https://youtu.be/-j3X3EuCf98?t=28m0s 28 minutes to 33:33.

1. It seems the protoss and Zerg had a huge battle over there. Mengsk didn't want to take any part in that, or maybe he doesn't want to be implicated. Maybe he wants to believe the Confederate were helpless and weak, and that he can do better. So he left with his entire fleet before they get swallowed up in the chaos.

2. Several dozen protoss warships vs billions of Zerg. Imagine tarsonis as a wild battleground, and only a strike force can penetrate.

I'd imagine there was only a small window for Kerrigan to do her thing, and it was spent.

I'm not saying Mengsk wouldn't do this kind of thing, and abandon soldiers when he has to, or pulling them out would get in his way. But what I have a problem with is the idea that he intended to kill her by sending her down there.

Mengsk does not "keep" people, in the sense that he has any loyalty to them. They are either useful to him, potentially useful to him, or a threat. There is no emotional feeling for anyone, besides happiness in people liking him/doing what he wants. This is shown when Raynor revolts. Mengsk immediately goes from "yay, we got a victory" to violently raving about his maniacal goals. There is no attempt made to justify his own actions, to persuade Raynor to stay, to bribe Raynor to stay, or anything like that. Raynor simply declares that he will have nothing further to do with Mengsk, and Mengsk immediately slides him over to the "threat" subset.

Actually, you know what? We don't actually know if Mengsk sent her down there to kill her (books aside, as they don't count). Granted, it's reasonably plausible that Mengsk simply abandoned her when the opportunity presented herself, but given that Raynor seemed to think that the battle was tough, there is reasonable cause to believe in Tura's suicide mission view, now that I think about it. Granted, we don't know either way, but honestly, Mengsk is such a self-serving egoist, that I wouldn't put it past him to throw her away on purpose. Given that Blizzard allowed a novel to be published that makes Kerrigan responsible for Mengsk's death, they apparently thought that Mengsk did it on purpose.

But I also think this whole discussion has no plot potential. I mean, if you really want to go on discussing it, that's fine, but let's talk about how we can get missions.

Gna, I really wanted to talk to you about your original point about Mengsk thinking Kerrigan is his ideal citizen. Was that your idea, or someone else's? What did you mean by that?

[ragnarok]

Well, if we take anything from the books and sc2 as truth, what's the point in a rehash?

Yeah I know that. This is why many had argued that if Blizzard admitted that SC2 was in the science fantasy genre, it'd be more acceptable with the prophecy crap.

[Turalyon]

But I also think this whole discussion has no plot potential. I mean, if you really want to go on discussing it, that's fine, but let's talk about how we can get missions.

Gna, I really wanted to talk to you about your original point about Mengsk thinking Kerrigan is his ideal citizen.

The whole discussion of Sc1 Mengsk's motivation and thought processes in regards to Kerrigan has "no plot potential" and you want to drop it... but then you ask a question about what Mengsk thinks of Kerrigan? Huh?

[Nissa]

The whole discussion of Sc1 Mengsk's motivation and thought processes in regards to Kerrigan has "no plot potential" and you want to drop it... but then you ask a question about what Mengsk thinks of Kerrigan? Huh?

READ. THE. NOTES.

Apparently Gna listed it in there as some sort of plot related thing, as a way for Mengsk to control others. I don't understand it, which is why I was asking Gna about it.

[Turalyon]

READ. THE. NOTES.

Apparently Gna listed it in there as some sort of plot related thing, as a way for Mengsk to control others. I don't understand it, which is why I was asking Gna about it.

Eh, I was genuinely confused at you saying you wanted to stop talking about how Mengsk sees and treats others (specifically Kerrigan in this case) because it has no plot potential only to then ask about the very same thing you apparently don't want to talk about anymore because... it now has plot potential? That's what it sound like to me at any rate.

Anyhoo, I'm assuming you meant this?

In that one Starbow campaign I was trying to make, the Zerg created queens of their own, as a sort of survival mechanism for a hive cluster without a cerebrate. My reasoning behind it is that hives already have a defense mechanism to eventually spawn queens in case it gets abandoned or intentionally left to hold a location.

I was thinking about having Mengsk in the spin-off trying to figure out how Alan Schezar controlled zerg, but failed. Instead, having the psi disrupter schematics, he builds his own to contain a hive on a planet, started experimenting, and sought out to capture kerrigan.

His scientist thought by using Kerrigan as a means of control by putting her in a tank and using psionically gifted people/children to control the zerg. He would use the Zerg to defeat his rivals, just like he used the zerg to destroy the confederacy's planet.

His control of the Zerg would be limited, and he will not be able to bring this to fruition.

My purpose for having this in, is a setup for Kerrigan and Mengsk's relationship in the story. I thought it would be okay since Mengsk has always used Kerrigan as a tool, and this would not be anything new, but this his playing god over kerrigan, and over confidence (as an abuser) might get him destroyed

Not really anything to do with Mengsk thinking Kerrigan's an "ideal citizen" here but it does have some plot related stuff... though I kinda gave a rebuttal to this, too (about the abuser/abused relationship of the two having gone full circle since BW and it being repetitious and contrived to have Mengsk be the abuser again). Sorry for being a buzzkill.

[GnaReffotsirk]

It wasn't my idea. I think it was submitted by VoK. I deliberately removed who said what to distance ourselves from what we say, and so approach things more objectively.

The Mengsk-Kerrigan relationship is essential. It shaped the very plot that is sc2.

In sc2, it is implied that Mengsk deliberately killed kerrigan, and so the revenge plot comes about, and everything else with it.

Putting that aside, we know a few things about what really happened, if we consider character reactions to what happened on the planet.

1. Raynor believes Mengsk "sacrificed" her. By that, he believes there could have been a way to get her out of there. If we put that into question, however, Mengsk's lawyer might try to say Raynor is delusional in that regard, and that it was too risky.

He could say, "Raynor, why didn't you try and save her then, if what you say is true, that Mengsk could have sent a dropship and picked her up? Maybe it was so rough down there, you needed an entire fleet to rescue her? You needed Mengsk to send the entire fleet or a large force to clear an LZ for her pickup? Wouldn't it be unwise to do that, considering sending her down there in the first place required an insertion team at 200% infiltration? You send a small team, then pick them up with an entire fleet?"

2. Kerrigan wants to see Mengsk suffer, as his empire crumbles. (I have no formed opinion on this yet.)

3. Duke remained loyal, and was one of the people whom mengsk uses to keep his empire running. Dugalle pointed this out, that Mengsk is nothing without the people around him.

You have a point there Nissa, and I'm not rejecting everything you say. These are ideas we've been asked to accept, which I find no grounds for. Kerrigan's revenge? She went down there willingly in the first place, knowing the risk.

And what she was saying about Mengsk turning around was about the Zerg. It seems she believes they could control the Zerg, and Mengsk would steer away the Zerg once the confederates are dead.

This is where I am coming from. And here's my thoughts:

Mengsk lied to them, and played with power beyond his control. He underestimated the power of the psi emitters which lured billions of zerg, causing several protoss warships to arrive. Now he needs kerrigan to hold off the Protoss a while until the confederate are either weakened or fallen.

But things got out of hand, and he took off.

It must have been like a flash flood of Zerg suddenly appearing and washing over Tarsonis. The intensity was too much, and he needed more time, so he keeps pushing, while kerrigan's chance for escape narrows down. But he keeps pushing, pushing, all he wants is victory now. Victory, no matter the cost.

I agree with you on the idea that Mengsk doesn't value life as Raynor does. That contrast is somewhat shown there. Mengsk proves to Raynor to be just like the confederates who would abandon him and the Magistrate's people to the Zerg.

[ragnarok]

The Mengsk-Kerrigan relationship is essential. It shaped the very plot that is sc2.

In sc2, it is implied that Mengsk deliberately killed kerrigan, and so the revenge plot comes about, and everything else with it.

Tell me something GNA, did you believe the whole Mengsk never forgave her for killing his father as something part of the SC2 lore only, or was it touched upon in the SC1 lore?

[Turalyon]

The Mengsk-Kerrigan relationship is essential. It shaped the very plot that is sc2.

In sc2, it is implied that Mengsk deliberately killed kerrigan, and so the revenge plot comes about, and everything else with it.

It shaped Kerrigan's actions in BW first though.

These are ideas we've been asked to accept, which I find no grounds for. Kerrigan's revenge? She went down there willingly in the first place, knowing the risk.

But BW certifies that Kerrigan was out for revenge: "You practically fed me to the Zerg on Tarsonis, you're directly responsible for the hell I've been through. Did you honestly believe I would let you get away with that?"

This mentality in BW is an extension of the naivete she exhibits in Sc1. She really can't take responsibility for her own actions in Sc1 because of this naivete, which then graduates to her forceful denial of her own culpability in how she got to her current situation in BW by just blaming Mengsk wholly. Much like how a child becomes a petulant teenager really.

Tell me something GNA, did you believe the whole Mengsk never forgave her for killing his father as something part of the SC2 lore only, or was it touched upon in the SC1 lore?

Kerrigan killing Mengsk's father happened in the EU after Sc1 came out to "explain" why Mengsk left her on Tarsonis in New Gettysburg. It's additive retroactive continuity and was never remotely suggested at in the Sc1 manual's Terran History beyond saying that Ghosts were sent to assasinate Angus Mengsk. To outright say it was definitely Kerrigan who killed Angus Mengsk back then would've been judged as nothing but "wild mass guessing" at the time.