Exercise 01: Establishing the Status Quo

[Turalyon]

Mengsk was never a long term thinker, and all of his actions have been very short-sighted and shallow -- using psi emitters, abandoning a psychic when he knew the Zerg were looking for them, accepting Kerri's help to retake Korhal, etc.

Wha? Only the last of these speak of Mengsk's short-sighted and shallow nature and guess what, that happened in BW. His use of the psi-emitters is a shrewd tactic for a specific purpose and to reach an ultimate goal. Mengsk does not know the Zerg are wanting to assimilate a psionic into their midst, he only knows they are attracted to psionics and seemingly destroy everything they are attracted to. His abandoning of Kerrigan can be seen as a pragmatic move - she was becoming unreliable and doubtful of his leadership but he wanted to make sure the Confederates didn't escape destruction. Might as well make use of her while he can and send her on a suicide mission where she can hopefully delay the Protoss long enough for the Zerg to completely overrun Tarsonis and the Confederates. If she dies against the Protoss, he still potentially win since the delay this would've caused might just be enough for the Zerg to amass on Tarsonic and/or the possibility that the Protoss will abandon rescuing Tarsonis with ground forces and just burn the world ilke they've done in the past - thereby killing the Confeds either way. If she holds off the Protoss for them to abandon any attempts to intervene (as she does so in the game), she'll still be hemmed in with the growing number of Zerg forces encroaching on the planet and be killed either way. There's no way he's gonna sacrifice even more people in the meatgrinder to attempt rescuing her and suffer losses he doesn't need nor want to incur - Kerrigan was enough of a sacrifice. All in all, it's a calculated win-win scenario for Mengsk all round.

"Evolving" is hands-off genetic change over time. Therefore it isn't evolution when the Zerg do it. Nitpick of the day.

"Evolution complete!" The Zerg Evo chamber would like a word with you.

The Zerg, being mindless, are basically the tools of anyone with the psi capacity to mess with them. Maybe we should try having the Protoss control some.

Eh, no thanks. I've had enough of Zerg being used narratively as artifice (especially after Sc2). The Zerg in BW were already nothing more than a plot device to be fought over. It's partly why they are so overpowered in BW - to justify why it's important to fight for control of them. They need to develop some agency on their own that is different from the hivemind (Sc1) and from being directly controlled by someone else (BW). I would like to see some exploration/expansion of "feral" Zerg as being more than just "useless/mindless".

[Visions of Khas]

With such high rates of mutation, I can see higher cognitive functions spontaneously arising in some feral colony -- especially with some accidental gene activation.

[Nissa]

Eh, i'm good with factional zerg, because of the fact that Kerrigan is no overmind and has no business somehow being able to control all of them, the Zerg by their very nature should be able to develop over time their own leaders, whether it be new cerebrates or some lower form of that altogether. Blizzard kind of fucked up when it came to BW's story telling especially on that aspect.

I don't think they did. It was simply a matter of there not being enough time to tell a story of factionalism. Besides, a lot of people just play the game and assume that Kerrigan is almighty and powerful at the end -- this isn't the case. She fought feral broods, had to use Mengsk's help to gain control of her forces, Raynor's help to destroy the disruptor, and in the end did not actually destroy the Dominion or the Protoss. She merely resisted their last ditch effort to put her out of comission. The only people she could destroy were the UED, who were an expeditionary force and not an established force in the K Sector.

I'm sorry but the Tal'Darim shouldn't exist. If there was really a third protoss faction we'd have heard at least something about them in SC1. They're a retroactive add-on that came out of nowhere, and also redundant since they're basically just edgier dark templar.

I second this motion. If I appeared to suggest otherwise, it is merely because I wanted to appear open to other people's opinions, assuming they had some good inspiration for this race. But of course the Tal'darim, as they presently exist, are complete crap.

Wha? Only the last of these speak of Mengsk's short-sighted and shallow nature and guess what, that happened in BW. His use of the psi-emitters is a shrewd tactic for a specific purpose and to reach an ultimate goal.

I could have explained myself better. It wasn't the use of the emitters themselves that was necessarily unwise, but the fact that he never considered the long term impact of it. He refused to acknowledge the moral differences between himself and his followers (Raynor, Kerrigan, the player, unseen others), and when he did, it was merely to use emitters behind Kerrigan's back and then dispose of her when she got too vocal about it.

He barely bothered justifying himself morally, and as a result, lost his most loyal agent (Kerrigan), other useful agents (Raynor and the player), as well as all the men and property destroyed when Raynor and the player made their escape. These three figures all ended up becoming Mengsk's enemies, and also a threat to his authority by the things that they witnessed. Remember when Tassadar went all nuts on Duke? It's a forgone conclusion that Raynor told Tassadar. Meaning that the Protoss know a lot more about Mengsk than he would like.

In other words, if Mengsk had considered his options better, and put some actual thought into how his followers would feel about him being morally bankrupt, then things would have gone better. He didn't think about it. In fact, right after he abandons Kerrigan, his first conversation with Raynor afterwards is him being all buddy-buddy, acting like Raynor didn't just get on his case for leaving people to die.

Mengsk is a blind fool.

Mengsk does not know the Zerg are wanting to assimilate a psionic into their midst, he only knows they are attracted to psionics and seemingly destroy everything they are attracted to. His abandoning of Kerrigan can be seen as a pragmatic move - she was becoming unreliable and doubtful of his leadership but he wanted to make sure the Confederates didn't escape destruction. Might as well make use of her while he can and send her on a suicide mission where she can hopefully delay the Protoss long enough....All in all, it's a calculated win-win scenario for Mengsk all round.

It is an assumption on your part that this was a suicide mission. Indeed, Raynor's dialogue at the end implies that it didn't need to be.

Mengsk did know that they wanted a psychic. Raynor even had a line about it, right in front of Mengskie-poo. What did Mengsk think they were going to do with a psychic? Take them out to dinner? They've all long known that the Zerg assimilate people. If the Zerg want a psychic, it's a reasonable assumption that they are going to either assimilate or study them. Mengsk never figured how this desire for psychics calculated into things when he used the psi emitters. Since Kerrigan was present when he used them, Mengsk basically pointed the way for the Zerg to find her.

But anyway, we shouldn't argue about something that wasn't really the point. All I was trying to say was that Mengsk is the sort of person who thinks in the present tense. He doesn't spend a lot of time thinking about what must happen in the long-term. (Though to be fair, he might have learned better at the end of BW, simply because he has to wait until he's strong enough to repel Kerrigan to get his revenge.) This means he isn't going to see Kerrigan in the way GNA described in the notes. You read the notes, right?

"Evolution complete!" The Zerg Evo chamber would like a word with you.

Yeah, well, it was wrong when the "evolution" chamber did it, and it's still wrong now. Again, nitpickily. Nit Pickle. Pickles. ...I'm hungry.

Eh, no thanks. I've had enough of Zerg being used narratively as artifice (especially after Sc2). The Zerg in BW were already nothing more than a plot device to be fought over. It's partly why they are so overpowered in BW - to justify why it's important to fight for control of them. They need to develop some agency on their own that is different from the hivemind (Sc1) and from being directly controlled by someone else (BW). I would like to see some exploration/expansion of "feral" Zerg as being more than just "useless/mindless".

We're having a difference of perception here. Namely, you have a wrong perception.

The Zerg were, as I just mentioned to Kaiser, not overpowered in BW. Indeed, the UED wouldn't have had as much time to putter around with the Dominion if the Zerg really were so powerful. Again, Kerrigan did not so much overwhelm her enemies as much as she outsmarted them, forced them to fulfill her whims, and depended very heavily on her enemies fighting each other instead of her. She did not fully defeat them at the end of BW (except the UED expeditionary force), she merely proved that she was a force to be reckoned with. The very fact that she "rested" and did not pursue her enemies after the battle of the three fleets presumes that, despite their own troubles, she herself did not have the resources to pursue full destruction of the UED and Protoss.

HOWEVER, that does not change that fact that it's perfectly fine for you not to want a "let's see who can control the Zerg" plotline again. I just think it would be fun if some group of Protoss, however small and of limited success, attempted to use their powers to do just that. After all, this is a discussion, and we should all be able to voice our preferences. Yes, let's definitely not do a retread of BW.

On the other hand, I feel that your term "useless/mindless" is incorrect. Mindless does not equal uselessness. It's rather like the Borg in Star Trek. What made them so scary was their single-mindedness, their "purity of essence," if you will, in that they could act in perfect unity for the betterment of their race. And then they added the Borg Queen in one of the movie and ruined the austerity of it all.

In short, I would like Zerg who are focused and detailed, not human-like in leadership forms, but clann-like in the way that wolves or dolphins are. So whatever we do as far as Zerg leadership goes, our inspiration should spring from the fact that the Zerg are animals, and they therefore will approach leadership and community from a different angle than a human or Protoss would.

That being said, it is the true nature of the Zerg to be mindless. If you deny this, you basically deny Starcraft. They were always meant to be the Overmind's minions. Well, not that there isn't way to bring in some form of leadership. Maybe the Overmind wanted Kerrigan to test the independence vs loyalty conflict, and see if certain minions could be given more power.

TLDR: The Zerg were not overpowered in BW, but we can discuss the Zerg leadership thing.

[ragnarok]

With such high rates of mutation, I can see higher cognitive functions spontaneously arising in some feral colony -- especially with some accidental gene activation.

What kind of gene activations you have in mind?

[Turalyon]

Sorry for the derailing... couldn't help myself.

I could have explained myself better. It wasn't the use of the emitters themselves that was necessarily unwise, but the fact that he never considered the long term impact of it. He refused to acknowledge the moral differences between himself and his followers (Raynor, Kerrigan, the player, unseen others), and when he did, it was merely to use emitters behind Kerrigan's back and then dispose of her when she got too vocal about it.

He barely bothered justifying himself morally....

In other words, if Mengsk had considered his options better, and put some actual thought into how his followers would feel about him being morally bankrupt, then things would have gone better.

You expect a sociopath to consider the long term emotional and moral implications of their actions on others? What's evil and wrong to us, is considered pragmatism and utilitarian to him. He doesn't think about this stuff because it's actually not important and he thinks that everyone's "on the same page" if they continue to keep following him. From his POV, Kerrigan and Raynor are just as culpable and agreeable to the situation as he is by following him and accepting his orders. They did continue to work with him and use the psi emitters twice before the New Gettysburg incident afterall. Their disagreement was not followed up with action, so therefore they must be accepting of it at some level. If they've been able to stomach this and follow him this far, then New Gettysburg should be no different. Hard to fathom as it may be, some people do think like this...

and as a result, lost his most loyal agent (Kerrigan), other useful agents (Raynor and the player), as well as all the men and property destroyed when Raynor and the player made their escape.

He didn't think about it. In fact, right after he abandons Kerrigan, his first conversation with Raynor afterwards is him being all buddy-buddy, acting like Raynor didn't just get on his case for leaving people to die.

He knew he was going to lose Kerrigan, one way or another. To Mengsk, it was a calculated sacrifice for a pragmatic reason, not just or only for selfish reasons. It's why he seethes at the implication of Raynor's biting question about the "sacrifice" of Kerrigan being just a selfish thing on his part. In terms of utilitarian thinking, it was a meaningful sacrifice to Mengsk since he had lost a very useful tool that had helped him in the past but which he had to use at the time.

His intially friendly demeanour toward Raynor after the mission stems from this utilitarian thinking of the job being "well done". There's no point in moping, because the ends justify the means; it was worth it in the end. To Mengsk, everyone that has followed him so far, being complicit in horrendous, morally questionable actions up to this point has to see this as nothing but a great victory. Therefore, to have someone devalue both his means and ends after all they've been through together, would be considered offensive and hypocritical from Mengsk's POV. This might be difficult to comprehend for you, but his anger and rant at Raynor is because he probably thinks Raynor is actually being the prick/selfish person. Why should he feel more entitled to be angry just because something bad happened only to him at this one time? It was a sacrifice to and for all.

It's sort of like in Rogue One where Cassian rebuts Jyn's self-righteous insinuation that he's nothing but a stormtrooper himself. She's just joined the resistance only now because of some personal misfortune and naively condescends from her ivory tower, whilst he has spent his whole life doing morally questionable things in order to just survive because he had no choice/since the alternative was to die or give up.

Mengsk is a blind fool.

Blind? Sure, why not. But a fool? That's questionable... up until BW cements it that is.

It is an assumption on your part that this was a suicide mission. Indeed, Raynor's dialogue at the end implies that it didn't need to be.

You don't think being sandwiched between two alien races that are orders of magnitude more powerful than the Confederates they were normally fighting and being told to not only attack one but not the other, whilst both are clearly hostile toward you, is not suicidal? Ok.... Raynor implies it's doesn't have to be suicidal because he's imploring Kerrigan to get the hell out of dodge and hoping she has a shred of sense to just leave.

Mengsk did know that they wanted a psychic. Raynor even had a line about it, right in front of Mengskie-poo. What did Mengsk think they were going to do with a psychic? Take them out to dinner?

They've all long known that the Zerg assimilate people. If the Zerg want a psychic, it's a reasonable assumption that they are going to either assimilate or study them.

No. All they know is that Zerg are attracted to psionics. Raynor makes a glib remark about "the Zerg are here for you darlin'?" but that's about it. The why still actually eludes them. Besides, Mengsk actually assumes the Zerg were a creation of the Confeds in that very same debriefing - we know he's wrong but he doesn't. Therefore, we can't assume that he knows that the Zerg are actually led by some hivemind intelligence that is looking for a psionic to assimilate into its fold. You have to be careful about your hindsight bias and special knowledge that the characters don't have.

All I was trying to say was that Mengsk is the sort of person who thinks in the present tense. He doesn't spend a lot of time thinking about what must happen in the long-term.

I disagree. This very much describes Mengsk in BW, but not Sc1.

The Zerg were, as I just mentioned to Kaiser, not overpowered in BW. Indeed, the UED wouldn't have had as much time to putter around with the Dominion if the Zerg really were so powerful. Again, Kerrigan did not so much overwhelm her enemies as much as she outsmarted them, forced them to fulfill her whims, and depended very heavily on her enemies fighting each other instead of her. She did not fully defeat them at the end of BW (except the UED expeditionary force), she merely proved that she was a force to be reckoned with. The very fact that she "rested" and did not pursue her enemies after the battle of the three fleets presumes that, despite their own troubles, she herself did not have the resources to pursue full destruction of the UED and Protoss.

Wasn't necessarily talking about Kerrigan being overpowered but the Zerg generally in terms of serving the plot of BW. They are such a threat in BW, the Dark Templar on Shakuras are losing to them (you know the biggest threat to the Zerg in Sc1 when the Overmind was still around...) despite being "feral"/having no Overmind. They just happen to grow another Overmind and carry on as if nothing happened to them at all. They are the MacGuffin the UED intend to use to take over the sector. It takes another MacGuffin out of nowhere to even weaken this already supposedly weak neo-Overmind/Zerg. The battle depicted in Omega was done all alone by a mere cerebrate versus all the forces each faction could muster against her at the time.

That Kerrigan "rested" is only evidence that she "rested" (or gave them a reprieve in her own words), not evidence she doesn't have capability or resources to kill them all if she wanted to. That she could completely destroy the UED, the most powerful force in the K sector at the time, actually suggests she also has the means to go on to destroy Mengsk (who had to go asking for favours to even be in that final fight in the first place) and the Protoss (who were struggling and losing against feral Zerg in The Stand, had Shakuras devastated by the Temples energies and their power grid of Talematros knocked out) if she wanted to. She's being snide by saying "I think I will allow them a reprieve. For in time I will seek to test their resolve, and their strengths" because she wants to make a sport of them/ to see them try and resist her. They can't do this in the state they're in at the end of BW, so she's going to wait for them to build-up before roflstomping them. To then go and say she's just actually straight out lying, that the Zerg are too weak to kill the others is ungrounded supposition.

In short, I would like Zerg who are focused and detailed, not human-like in leadership forms, but clann-like in the way that wolves or dolphins are. So whatever we do as far as Zerg leadership goes, our inspiration should spring from the fact that the Zerg are animals, and they therefore will approach leadership and community from a different angle than a human or Protoss would.

In agreement here.

That being said, it is the true nature of the Zerg to be mindless. If you deny this, you basically deny Starcraft. They were always meant to be the Overmind's minions. Well, not that there isn't way to bring in some form of leadership. Maybe the Overmind wanted Kerrigan to test the independence vs loyalty conflict, and see if certain minions could be given more power.

Not denying their nature, it's just that I'm not wanting them to be enslaved to that ideal since it stagnates progress for them as a race. Genuine change coming out from their current circumstances (not a change due to some hitherto unknown retcon) is what's needed.

[GnaReffotsirk]

In that one Starbow campaign I was trying to make, the Zerg created queens of their own, as a sort of survival mechanism for a hive cluster without a cerebrate. My reasoning behind it is that hives already have a defense mechanism to eventually spawn queens in case it gets abandoned or intentionally left to hold a location.

I was thinking about having Mengsk in the spin-off trying to figure out how Alan Schezar controlled zerg, but failed. Instead, having the psi disrupter schematics, he builds his own to contain a hive on a planet, started experimenting, and sought out to capture kerrigan.

His scientist thought by using Kerrigan as a means of control by putting her in a tank and using psionically gifted people/children to control the zerg. He would use the Zerg to defeat his rivals, just like he used the zerg to destroy the confederacy's planet.

His control of the Zerg would be limited, and he will not be able to bring this to fruition.

My purpose for having this in, is a setup for Kerrigan and Mengsk's relationship in the story. I thought it would be okay since Mengsk has always used Kerrigan as a tool, and this would not be anything new, but this his playing god over kerrigan, and over confidence (as an abuser) might get him destroyed

[Nissa]

You expect a sociopath to consider the long term emotional and moral implications of their actions on others?

This is exactly what I was trying to say about Mengsk. He's too sociopathic to think about the future. Had you read the notes, you would know that my objection came from Gna's (or whoever said it) idea that Mengsk's intention for Kerrigan was to create a society of how he wanted his citizens to be. In criticizing Mengsk's ability to think long term, I am emphasizing his insanity, NOT implying that he should have known better.

B) Kerrigan was raised by Mengsk into a tactical and strategic leader. Skilled in subversion and intrigue. A protege.
b-1) Kerrigan is a weapon, cast aside as nothing more than an object.
b-2) Kerrigan is an enemy made by Mengsk for himself. A personal point of humiliation (requires elaboration).
b-3) A personal experiment, project. The best weapon, of absolute and utter loyalty. A prototype of sorts for what Mengsk would do with the Sector, once he gains control.

Context man, context. Read the dang notes already.

Blind? Sure, why not. But a fool? That's questionable... up until BW cements it that is.

He be a fool, because he thinks he can still be all buddy buddy with Raynor after brutally abandoning Kerri and the other people with her. Indicates obvious lack of ability to understand people who are not himself.

You don't think being sandwiched between two alien races that are orders of magnitude more powerful than the Confederates they were normally fighting and being told to not only attack one but not the other, whilst both are clearly hostile toward you, is not suicidal? Ok.... Raynor implies it's doesn't have to be suicidal because he's imploring Kerrigan to get the hell out of dodge and hoping she has a shred of sense to just leave.

The trouble is, the game does not make it clear that it's suicidal. It could go either way. Given that Mengsk started out as a mere rebel leader who didn't have the capacity to take over Korhal without the help of the psi emitters, technically speaking, every mission is a suicide mission, more or less.

I'm not saying your assumption is unreasonable, I'm just saying it's an assumption.

No. All they know is that Zerg are attracted to psionics. Raynor makes a glib remark about "the Zerg are here for you darlin'?" but that's about it. The why still actually eludes them. Besides, Mengsk actually assumes the Zerg were a creation of the Confeds in that very same debriefing - we know he's wrong but he doesn't. Therefore, we can't assume that he knows that the Zerg are actually led by some hivemind intelligence that is looking for a psionic to assimilate into its fold. You have to be careful about your hindsight bias and special knowledge that the characters don't have.

You're cute. And no. If (a) they know that the Zerg are attracted to psionics and (b) psi emitters emit false psionic signals, they'd have to be stupid and blind not to realize that they're playing with fire. Sure, they didn't know the Overmind had plans for a queen of blades, specifically, but again, logically speaking, what would a race that genetically assimilates others is going to do with a psionic? Raynor has literally seen an infested base before, and Mengsk reveals that he's known about the Zerg for even longer.

In other words,
(a) Zerg assimilate humans.
(b) The swarm wants psionics.
(c) Psi emitters emit psionic waves.

Anyone with logical capabilities can logically assume that the Zerg want to assimilate psychics, and that using psi emitters in this capacity will attract them to whoever puts the emitters in place.

Duh.

Bah, humbug. I'm done arguing with things irrelevant to the thread. Tura, I love ya, but I really don't want to nitpick things that don't matter with you.

[Nissa]

In that one Starbow campaign I was trying to make, the Zerg created queens of their own, as a sort of survival mechanism for a hive cluster without a cerebrate. My reasoning behind it is that hives already have a defense mechanism to eventually spawn queens in case it gets abandoned or intentionally left to hold a location.

I was thinking about having Mengsk in the spin-off trying to figure out how Alan Schezar controlled zerg, but failed. Instead, having the psi disrupter schematics, he builds his own to contain a hive on a planet, started experimenting, and sought out to capture kerrigan.

His scientist thought by using Kerrigan as a means of control by putting her in a tank and using psionically gifted people/children to control the zerg. He would use the Zerg to defeat his rivals, just like he used the zerg to destroy the confederacy's planet.

His control of the Zerg would be limited, and he will not be able to bring this to fruition.

My purpose for having this in, is a setup for Kerrigan and Mengsk's relationship in the story. I thought it would be okay since Mengsk has always used Kerrigan as a tool, and this would not be anything new, but this his playing god over kerrigan, and over confidence (as an abuser) might get him destroyed

You really have some ideas about Mengsk. Honestly, Mengsk isn't that long term. I kinda imagined that he's become skeptical about all psychics, and has put a lot of money into anti-psionic technology, in name to be used as defense against the Protoss, but really to stop ghosts from being able to have the advantage over him.

I also had a demi-redemption plot for Mengsk, but that's neither here nor there.

As for your queens thing, I kinda like that. We could use queen units (the pre-extant ones) as leaders who keep things going in the meantime, like you said, and they are automatically set to obey the last orders they were given by their no longer present authority (cerebrate, Kerrigan, whoever). Then maybe over time some got ideas of their own.

[Gradius]

He be a fool, because he thinks he can still be all buddy buddy with Raynor after brutally abandoning Kerri and the other people with her.

I don't think he actually did. He didn't miss a beat and had a response all ready for when Raynor told him to piss off. I think his hope was that Raynor's self interest would take precedence and he would suck it up and forget about it, because Mengsk is the law now, as Raynor had put it. Raynor essentially condemned himself to a life as a fugitive/criminal by going against him.

In other words,(a) Zerg assimilate humans.
(b) The swarm wants psionics.
(c) Psi emitters emit psionic waves.


Anyone with logical capabilities can logically assume that the Zerg want to assimilate psychics, and that using psi emitters in this capacity will attract them to whoever puts the emitters in place.


Duh.

Every human they've seen who was assimilated was stripped of their intellect and free will and turned into a suicidal brainless drone.

Other possible reasons they're attracted to psychic signals from the terrans' point of view:
1) Glitch in their hivemind programming.
2) Glitch in their biological programming. Flies can be attracted to light. Zerg can be attracted to psionics.
3) They're mistaking the psychic signal for their real target: the protoss.

Zerg have killed ghosts before, and it's not like they roll over and die when they see Kerrigan. She still had to fight them in the New Gettysburg cinematic. Mengsk, who has very limited information on zerg, somehow being expected to know they don't actually want to kill Kerrigan and instead want to turn her into their all-powerful queen is preposterous. A classic example of hindsight bias.

[Nissa]

Uggh....Gradius, did you read my post? I'm not saying that Mengsk should have known that they were going to make the queen of blades. I said specifically that. I said that they knew that the Zerg wanted psychics, and they knew that the Zerg assimilated people. Thus Mengsk, or any person in his organization with any degree of a brain, would realize that the Zerg are likely going to assimilate psychics.

*sigh*