New StarCraft Comic: "The Keep"

[ragnarok]

I love you Tura, but sometimes you say the weirdest things outta nowhere. Yes, Aldy is best 'Toss and yes, Mengskie-poo is complicated, but the Overmind? All he ever was was a giant eyeball that wanted to conquer everyone. He has no character depth. Sure, his motives are somewhat mysterious and interesting as a result, but he himself isn't terribly deep or complicated. In fact, one reason I dislike him is because he's on the boring side.

That's because going by the SC1 lore, he thought his purpose was to assimilate everything, and in a way, misinterpreted the Xel'Naga's orders.

[Turalyon]

That's because going by the SC1 lore, he thought his purpose was to assimilate everything, and in a way, misinterpreted the Xel'Naga's orders.

At it again are we, Rag? By that, I mean, making presumptions of other peoples intent and taking that as fact as what they were intending? Sorry to say this but please don't speak on behalf or for others because you're terrible at it.

Either way, I fail to see how this (even if I did actually think this way) has anything to do with my thinking of it as a complex character. I have no idea what "misinterpreted the Xel'Naga's orders" is even supposed to be referring to since the Xel'Naga didn't give the Overmind an imperative beyond just it just merely being a representation of the gestalt consciousness of all Zerg.

I love you Tura, but sometimes you say the weirdest things outta nowhere.

Part of my charm, my dear.

Yes, Aldy is best 'Toss and yes, Mengskie-poo is complicated, but the Overmind? All he ever was was a giant eyeball that wanted to conquer everyone. He has no character depth. Sure, his motives are somewhat mysterious and interesting as a result, but he himself isn't terribly deep or complicated. In fact, one reason I dislike him is because he's on the boring side.

I'm not going to disagree here because you're right in some ways. However, in my defence I have to get a bit pedantic since I didn't exactly qualify what I meant when I said "complex" the first time. When I said "complex", I meant it in terms of the concept/idea of the character in and of itself. This is different from what you desribe as "complicated", which you are using to describe perceived "depth" of a character.

Still, if we want to talk about character depth, there is one interesting and unwholesome character quality that ties Aldaris, Mengsk and the Overmind together. It's that all of them are marked by hubris. The Overmind is especially ironic in this case because it unwittingly becomes a hypocrite and a victim of karmic retribution in pronouncing that the Protoss' "overweening pride be their downfall" because it turns out to be, retrospectively, foreshadowing it's own defeat because of it's over-confidence/overweening pride.

[Nissa]

Oh, you were talking about themes, not characters.

Nah, I still can't see the Overmind as terribly interesting. He's not complex the same way Mengsk and Aldaris are, and I don't like the latter two because they're bad guys and "hard to like", I like them because they are complicated, and their moral levels are only an aspect of their complexity. That, and Aldaris' hubris isn't hubris so much as a belief in the Protoss, regardless of the Protoss' actual circumstances. Mengsk loves himself and only himself, and the Overmind is more accepting of issues the Swarm faces. Actually, since I put it that way, I don't think the Overmind is necessarily all about hubris. I think he just sees life as some sort of grand narrative wherein the Zerg are on a mystical quest of conquest which will eventually end in their victory.

....Okay, that's hubris.

[ragnarok]

I have no idea what "misinterpreted the Xel'Naga's orders" is even supposed to be referring to since the Xel'Naga didn't give the Overmind an imperative beyond just it just merely being a representation of the gestalt consciousness of all Zerg.

Yes, but you'd think (even based on SC1 lore) that the Xel'Naga would have needed the Overmind to incorporate the Zerg characteristics into itself upon creation, which in turn meant the assimilation of species, and then the Overmind merely took this too far.

[GnaReffotsirk]

Aldaris followed what had been working for ages. But he seems to have an inquisitive nature. He gives you an opportunity to prove yourself, while doing his job if ever he was right, or you were wrong. He seems to like to give you a chance, or just let things run its course, not stall by argument and speculation, so as to execute actions that would be necessary.

1. He gave permission to assault the cerebrate by Tassadar's suggestion. Tassadar was an asshole for sending the executor here just to prove a point.
2. He allowed Zeratul to escape with Tassadar.
3. He allowed Artanis to be praetor. (Was artanis a rebel? Why does he have short tendrils?)
4. He submits himself to the Dark Templar's laws and customs.
5. He apparently knows the Conclave have been Tyrannical towards the Dark Templar.

And he says, "We shall see."

[Turalyon]

Nah, I still can't see the Overmind as terribly interesting. He's not complex the same way Mengsk and Aldaris are, and I don't like the latter two because they're bad guys and "hard to like", I like them because they are complicated, and their moral levels are only an aspect of their complexity.

I don't mind this, it's a personal taste thing in the end anyways. What you see as mundane as tepid, others can see as being interesting.

I do agree that the Overmind is "not complex in the same way as Mengsk and Aldaris are" though, just not that because it is a different type of complex, that it's any less interesting to think about. Oh and I'm sorry if I inferred that you or that most people who liked these three were in any way "bad fans" (people who like characters because they are bad guys/unlikable) even though I know there are some who are actually such - not that I'm against them or anything, mind you. I didn't think I said or intended this at the time.

That, and Aldaris' hubris isn't hubris so much as a belief in the Protoss, regardless of the Protoss' actual circumstances.

It's one of those "you say toma(r)to, I say tota(y)to" things, huh?

Still hubris though. Whether you consider that good or bad is up to you. Whatever it is, it still makes Aldaris a great character either way.

Mengsk loves himself and only himself

I like to be contrarian when it comes to interpreting Mengsk because the game allows it. Sure, Mengsk's final rant/reveal marks him as an unstable, selfish man (for all time?) and that previous hints at his impatience for those who resist him as a potential powder keg, but I'd like to think that this reveal doesn't overshadow all his previous actions that, moral, personal and psychological considerations aside, can be justified on a pragmatic, utilitarian level. Mengsk egomania feels more scary to me when I consider that his anger at Raynor is not about him being selfish but if Mengsk feels that he's being selfless. The "I will rule this sector or see it burnt to ashes around me" line is seen as a selfish tantrum-y threat of "it's I either do this or I will do that", but I sometimes like to consider it that Mengsk is stating that "I have to do this (rule the sector) or that other thing (seeing it burnt to ashes and not necessarily by his hand) would happen".

It's funny in a way that this last speech in The Hammer Falls forever damns Mengsk as being the "baddest of bad people" to most viewers (due to being forced into Raynor's perspective no doubt - Mengsk still is an idealistic rebel crusader even if he's "The Man" now, just not Raynor's concept of "idealistic"), whilst Aldaris' last speech in Eye of the Storm doesn't absolve him in the eyes of viewers. I guess people must like cateogrising people as villains since it's easier on them to do so.

Actually, since I put it that way, I don't think the Overmind is necessarily all about hubris. I think he just sees life as some sort of grand narrative wherein the Zerg are on a mystical quest of conquest which will eventually end in their victory.

....Okay, that's hubris.

Haha, now you're getting it! That's how I see the Overmind chapter in some ways (weakest as it is comparatively to the other Sc1 Episodes in terms of narrative/storytelling). Much as I am a Zerg fan, the grandiose, seemingly god-like Overmind who "respects" the Protoss as a worthwhile enemy but sees their pride as a weakness, really is unaware of its own hypocrisy/that it shares the same weakness. It's great because the game never hints at it so much, but it's there if you look for it.

Yes, but you'd think (even based on SC1 lore) that the Xel'Naga would have needed the Overmind to incorporate the Zerg characteristics into itself upon creation, which in turn meant the assimilation of species, and then the Overmind merely took this too far.

Sorry, but I don't understand what you're trying to say here. According to original lore, the Xel'Naga already incorporated the "Zerg characteristics" into the Overmind upon it's creation as a means to help them maintain purity of essence (a lesson learnt from their failure with the Protoss) because it's, by design, the gestalt consciousness of the Zerg. It literally is the will of each and all the Zerg at the same time. Simpler still, it is the Zerg.

[ragnarok]

Aldaris followed what had been working for ages. But he seems to have an inquisitive nature. He gives you an opportunity to prove yourself, while doing his job if ever he was right, or you were wrong. He seems to like to give you a chance, or just let things run its course, not stall by argument and speculation, so as to execute actions that would be necessary.

1. He gave permission to assault the cerebrate by Tassadar's suggestion. Tassadar was an asshole for sending the executor here just to prove a point.
2. He allowed Zeratul to escape with Tassadar.
3. He allowed Artanis to be praetor. (Was artanis a rebel? Why does he have short tendrils?)
4. He submits himself to the Dark Templar's laws and customs.
5. He apparently knows the Conclave have been Tyrannical towards the Dark Templar.

And he says, "We shall see."

True, but it seems like despite saying that, Aldaris has already convinced himself he'll be proven right in the end. I personally felt he was still very reluctant to admit error to Tassadar at the beginning of the "Eye of the Storm" mission.

[TheEconomist]

Maybe this was already said, but this comic is free on Amazon right now.

A bunch of the Overwatch comics are free right now too, if anyone cares.

[ragnarok]

I already read it online anyway, so it doesn't matter

[Gradius]

I already read it online anyway, so it doesn't matter

There are other people in existence besides you, so yes, it does. :P

That being said, it was free since it came out.