Hellion Visuals

[DemolitionSquid]

If you want to attack ground with an air unit, build a Banshee.
If you want to attack ground with an anti-air unit, build a Viking.

As Nicol said before - the ground form is not the point. It simply gives it versatility. It lets it be good at its AA abilities like the Wraith and Goliath, but also be good at its AG abilities, something the Wraith and Goliath were never good at.

[Aldrius]

So you basically want another Wraith?

That's EXACTLY what I said. Glad to see reading comprehension isn't dead.

That's not exciting. The way I think a ground unit transforming into an air unit would be.

Siege tanks need to transform just to be useful, so does that mean they're a terrible unit?

Except that's not true at all. The tank form is perfectly usable. It's just that most people CHOOSE not to use it. And generally speaking the way Terran players play, siege mode is more useful.

It's all situational, saying "oh it has to change into a ground unit just to attack ground is bad" is completely arbitrary and I see no basis behind this claim.

How is it arbitrary?

Flat-out. Transforming into a ground unit provides little benefit and A LOT of punishment. That's not arbitrary by any means.

I don't know. That sounds like the same foundation that goes into the "Medivacs are BAD" argument. I mean, they're only nerfed Medics; harder to tech to, harder to keep alive, cost more resources...

Not at all. Med-evacs can fly, can transport, heal faster. You need less food for an army that both has healing and transportation. Don't need the transportation time to bring a medic along too.

Name me one MEANINGFUL, fairly broad benefit that the Viking ground form provides. Besides being able to attack ground targets.

As Nicol said before - the ground form is not the point.

The point is that it's two units in one, the key is that TRANSFORMING aspect. And right now it's just wholly unexciting. Because it essentially goes from a higher-tier unit and transforms into a lower-tier unit.

[pure.Wasted]

Flat-out. Transforming into a ground unit provides little benefit and A LOT of punishment. That's not arbitrary by any means.

"A LOT of punishment" as opposed to what? Being able to attack ground from the air, or not being able to attack ground at all?

If you want the former, tough cookies. You might as well be crying that the Medic needs to come back, because it provided more obvious advantages to the Terran. More obvious advantages =! better for gameplay.

Name me one MEANINGFUL, fairly broad benefit that the Viking ground form provides. Besides being able to attack ground targets.

Why the 'besides'? That's like saying, 'name the benefits to burrowing a Lurker, OTHER than gaining an attack.' It's a pretty big benefit...

[unentschieden]

Name me one MEANINGFUL, fairly broad benefit that the Viking ground form provides. Besides being able to attack ground targets.

Curiously, the ground mode is FASTER. Yeah I´m also suprised.
But even if it wasn´t, the ground form is a evasion tool against any anti-air enemys.

[Norfindel]

Take a look at the composition of that Terran army. That's Terran Metal, front and center.

Take out the Thor's anti-air guns, and now it dies to anything and everything in the air. Banshees, Mutalisks, Phoenix/Void Rays. Basic AtG units will slaughter everything produced from the Factory.

Thors weren't going to stop a concerted air attack from Void Rays to begin with. But without their anti-air, the Terrans would have been even more vulnerable to flying attackers.

Aren't Vikings supposed to take the role of the Goliath's anti-air role? Giving 10x4 (+4 vs Light) attack with splash and 10 range to this 400 hp unit looks pretty much like excluding light air units from the game in that area. At least the Thor cost a bunch of resources, but i'm not convinced about very tough units that completely prevent some types of units from being used. That is rock-paper-scissors gameplay, right? Wasn't it supposed to be toned down? The same seems to happend with the Planetary Fortress, it completely renders some unit types useless.

What if you *need* that units in the area to fight another threat?

[unentschieden]

Aren't Vikings supposed to take the role of the Goliath's anti-air role? Giving 10x4 (+4 vs Light) attack with splash and 10 range to this 400 hp unit looks pretty much like excluding light air units from the game in that area. At least the Thor cost a bunch of resources, but i'm not convinced about very tough units that completely prevent some types of units from being used. That is rock-paper-scissors gameplay, right? Wasn't it supposed to be toned down? The same seems to happend with the Planetary Fortress, it completely renders some unit types useless.

What if you *need* that units in the area to fight another threat?

That is the point of the unit though. You might as well complain that Tanks in SC:BW dominate groundunits.

You get Thors to ward against light air and help with some other issues. Notice that I write "ward". Light air would simply avoid the Thor and fly somewhere where they can attack - just like in SC:BW.
What are light airunits in SC2 anyway?
Observers? Cloaked and detection might not be crucial against Terrans (depends on Banshee performance).
Phoenix? Anti-air, they would most likely fly to a expansion and lift SCVs.
Corrupter? Anti air.
Mutalisks? Possibly the most valid concern but according to reports people just bunch them up and onesalvio Thors...
Banshees? Cloak.
Vikings? Anti-air.

The Thor would prevent usage of these units if they were supposed to be engaging it head on but usually they have other targets/roles than the Terran Mech ball.

[Nicol Bolas]

Aren't Vikings supposed to take the role of the Goliath's anti-air role?

No.

Due to the cheapness and power of the Goliath's GtA, it became the single answer for all anti-air needs. Light, heavy, etc, it was a great answer for dealing with anything.

The Thor is good at one kind of air: tight groups. They can stop Mutalisk balls and ward off certain uses of Phoenixes. But they are not a strong counter for most kinds of air units.

What are light airunits in SC2 anyway?

Quite a few of those units are armored.

Anyway, the Thor is a good thing to make certain kinds of units go away. But the power of the Thor's anti-air attack is in their AoE; if you bring 6 Banshees in a spread formation, you can still do significant damage without too much problem.

[Norfindel]

And yeah, if the ground is soft enough wheels will sink in, but Creep usually solidifies, actually becomes brittle, so that would not be much of a problem.

Dune buggies. If you use large wheels, they can get traction in soft terrain.

Ok, big wheels have better traction, but hovercrafts do hover, and move by action and reaction, not even touching the ground, so they don't even use traction.

The Liberty's Crusade explanation was pathetic technobabble, i wouldn't take that too seriously. "Transducer coils"? What kind on energy do this coils convert into what, and how do the Creep prevents it?

Moreover, Blizzard's canon means jack, because in one of the comics, the Vultures fly. Are we supposed to believe than Vultures at such heights would be affected by terrain? Blizzard's lore contradicts itself...

No.

Due to the cheapness and power of the Goliath's GtA, it became the single answer for all anti-air needs. Light, heavy, etc, it was a great answer for dealing with anything.

The Thor is good at one kind of air: tight groups. They can stop Mutalisk balls and ward off certain uses of Phoenixes. But they are not a strong counter for most kinds of air units.

I was talking about the Vikings taking the Anti-air role of the Goliaths. Goliaths with the upgrade had insane range and pretty high damage, but at least Vikings can fly and chase the enemy air units, and can go ground if overwhelmed by air-only units. So, i think that Vikings are going to be more vulnerable to counter-attack, but at least you can double-pump them.

I know that the Thor isn't effective against all air, but it's stats look brutally effective against light units. Void Rays aren't precisely cheap, and i won't be happy to run them into a Viking field, which the Phoenix could fight while the Void Rays do what they are good to. That's why i don't like brutally effective attacks. Remember the Corsairs? That was brutally effective.

[Pandonetho]

Except that's not true at all. The tank form is perfectly usable. It's just that most people CHOOSE not to use it. And generally speaking the way Terran players play, siege mode is more useful.

No, it's not. Sure it's "perfectly" usable, so how come the viking ground form isn't? Stop using a double standard. "The viking has to transform to use a weaker ground attack" is suddenly worse than "The siege tank has to transform just to be more useful"?

Nicol's point about most units having a ground attack of some form meaning that having to transform to a ground unit is a disadvantage, is bull.

Do the math, Vikings being able to do more damage in ground form than the Wraith can with its belly mounted laser while having to be a ground unit is actually worth the trade off. First we all have to acknowledge the fact that any AtA attack is automatically rendered useless against the viking making it better than wraiths for bypassing AtA defenses. Also, the ground form viking is similar to goliath in a way, it owns the shit out of marines, zerglings, and all sorts of other infantry.

What's a better choice? Using goliaths against Hydralisks, or using wraiths? You tell me.

[Nicol Bolas]

Do the math, Vikings being able to do more damage in ground form than the Wraith can with its belly mounted laser while having to be a ground unit is actually worth the trade off.

I never said it wasn't worth the tradeoff. I said that having to go to ground is a disadvantage. You know, just like doing more damage is an advantage. When you put them together, you get a disadvantage coupled with an advantage: a tradeoff.

Also, the ground form viking is similar to goliath in a way, it owns the shit out of marines, zerglings, and all sorts of other infantry.

That remains to be seen. I'd want to see it actually "owning the shit" out of these units before accepting that claim.