Nova: Covert Ops [SPOILERS]

[Turalyon]

Read it again: "Those running the program found that the Zerg are attuned to the psychic emanations of Ghosts."

This is what the game gives us as the cause for the attraction.

"Attuned" is not even a synonym for "attracted", nor does it even suggest why it actually "attracts" (if at all) in the first place. For example, saying "I'm attuned to the noise of city life" does not mean I'm attracted to noisy city life nor imply that the noise is why I came to live in the city.

Even if the words were interchangeable, what you're suggesting is very much like this example: It's been observed that when (a) food is presented to you, it's followed by b) you eating it and then concluding that (a) caused (b) or that presenting food to you at any time will cause you to eat it under any and all circumstances. This is blatantly untrue because it disregards the most likely cause of you to eat, like feeling hungry.

Since this is your only "evidence", your premise is entirely flawed.

In SC1 and Novert Ops the zerg respond to ghost signals because of the Overmind, in BW they respond to Kerrigan's signals, who was actually a former ghost because of the baby Overmind.

Fixed.

Overlaying your Overmind theory on top of this would render the game nonsensical.

I don't need to "overlay" anything nor is the theory ad hoc as you presume it to be. There is not enough evidence to suggest that psionic attraction is innate in the Zerg without the Overmind in Sc1 alone. To say so without reservation is an argument from ignorance. That's largely because the Zerg are never without the Overmind in Sc1 and because "attune" and "attraction" are not eveninterchangeable words. Much like the natural implication that the Overmind is metaphysically free-willed in the first instance, so is the Zerg being attracted to psionics because of the Overmind is inherent from the information contained in Sc1 and its manual. And, just like WoL says the Overmind was not metaphysically free-willed, Covert Ops suggests the Zerg are not attracted to psionics because of the Overmind.

With that basis, just saying, "well, the attraction was never due to the Overmind at all from Sc1 and has always been like that" or "it was never specifically stated that it was due to the Overmind so innate psionic attraction actually clears up any debate" is reminiscent of those defenses for the Overmind retcon.

nowhere is it explained/implied in SC1 that he lacks free will.

Some defenders would call this an argument from ignorance.

In fact, this is probably the worst example to illustrate your point given that Zeratul outright invalidates Amon's existence & the Overmind's slavery when he touched minds with the Overmind and learned everything about him. It's a full-blown contradiction.

*Winces at the weight of the Sc2 lore defence cap on my head* Not necessarily. This merely demonstrates absence of evidence not evidence of absence. Zeratul may well have known of the Overmind's slavery and Amon's existence through the contact but didn't mention it at the time because it was irrelevant/superfluous (although interesting to know to be sure) to addressing the important matter that the Overmind, free will or no, was still invading Aiur and wiping out their species at that very moment. I mean, even if he did blurt this out, it wouldn't have changed their subsequent actions against the Overmind anyway.

You seem to think I'm just dismissing your "implicit cue" for the mere fact that it's not outright stated anywhere, but I'm not. I'm dismissing it because it doesn't make any sense and my theory is more elegant.

Back at ya.

It makes no sense that baby Overmind would still be sending out the "assimilate human psychics" order

It makes no sense that a resurrected/ baby Overmind should exist at all, yet there it is. If one can stretch how the Psi Disruptor (which makes no sense that it should exist as well) counters but not counter the Psi-emitter, it ain't much of a stretch to explain why a baby Overmind would still want to be looking for psionics (you know, psionics being its main objective for wanting to assimilate the Protoss and all).

I disagree that Zerg are attracted just because the Overmind was looking for psychics.

It's more satisfying than your reason of "for plot convenience". Having the Zerg do things "just because"/"for no reason"/meaninglessly (which is what your theory ultimately encourages) is a disservice to the established Zerg history and serves to make them, disappointingly enough as it is already, as nothing more than generic plot devices.

Even in SC: Uprising, 10 years before SC1, zerg respond to human telepaths before the swarm ever invaded. This was presumably the first time they had ever interacted.

Using information that came out only after the initial game and justifying it because the information was in the chronologic past of that universe. Hmm, I wonder what else that applies to...

Mm, nope. Someone's losing their edge.

Touché. Didn't think to look at the unit entries. Still, being sensitive/receptive/attuned to something does not mean they are also blindlessly attracted to that something.

[ragnarok]

I thought psi emitters were consistent in the first star craft.
For whatever reason, the individual Zerg minions were attracted to the psi emitters and would seek them out unless they were given other orders by their superiors
Early on, you had the Overmind and cerebrates noticing this pull on their minions so they decided to go in full force to investigate.
It's not very complicated

I thought it was more of a combination of the Overmind's actions and the Confederacy's emitters working way better than they thought, which lured the WHOLE of the swarm into the Koprulu sector

[Gradius]

I thought psi emitters were consistent in the first star craft.
For whatever reason, the individual Zerg minions were attracted to the psi emitters and would seek them out unless they were given other orders by their superiors
Early on, you had the Overmind and cerebrates noticing this pull on their minions so they decided to go in full force to investigate.
It's not very complicated

That's pretty much what I think.

"Attuned" is not even a synonym for "attracted", nor does it even suggest why it actually "attracts" (if at all) in the first place. For example, saying "I'm attuned to the noise of city life" does not mean I'm attracted to noisy city life nor imply that the noise is why I came to live in the city.

Even if the words were interchangeable, what you're suggesting is very much like this example: It's been observed that when (a) food is presented to you, it's followed by b) you eating it and then concluding that (a) caused (b) or that presenting food to you at any time will cause you to eat it under any and all circumstances. This is blatantly untrue because it disregards the most likely cause of you to eat, like feeling hungry.

Since this is your only "evidence", your premise is entirely flawed.

Zerg are attuned to Ghost signals:
"Those running the program found that the Zerg are attuned to the psychic emanations of Ghosts."

Zerg are attracted to Ghost signals:
"The Confederacy used these Psi Emitters to lure the Zerg into isolated containment areas."

Where's the confusion? I love how we've entered the nitpicking semantics phase of the debate where I provide all the evidence and you ignore it, and in the meantime I'm still waiting on a shred of evidence for the "Overmind said so" hypotheses that includes more than just rampant speculation.

I don't need to "overlay" anything nor is the theory ad hoc as you presume it to be. There is not enough evidence to suggest that psionic attraction is innate in the Zerg without the Overmind in Sc1 alone.

I'm quoting facts from the game, your hypotheses isn't even a working theory since it essentially creates even more plotholes in Brood War.

Some defenders would call this an argument from ignorance.

It's a direct contradiction.

*Winces at the weight of the Sc2 lore defence cap on my head* Not necessarily. This merely demonstrates absence of evidence not evidence of absence. Zeratul may well have known of the Overmind's slavery and Amon's existence through the contact but didn't mention it at the time because it was irrelevant/superfluous (although interesting to know to be sure) to addressing the important matter that the Overmind, free will or no, was still invading Aiur and wiping out their species at that very moment. I mean, even if he did blurt this out, it wouldn't have changed their subsequent actions against the Overmind anyway.

Incorrect. The fact that the Overmind is a mental slave in his own body and has an even more powerful master would change the tone/dialog immensely. Then Zeratul wouldn't be surprised at Duran making a hybrid, or not have any clue who Amon was, or dozens of other inconsistencies. Dialog where the Overmind states he wants to assimilate the protoss to finish the grand experiment is contradicted/retconned. He does not want that, nor is he finishing the work of the Xel'Naga, nor did he "grow beyond their constraints". Blatant contradiction.

Did you really think I've been railing against the Overmind retcon all these years just because "it's my opinion"? :P

It makes no sense that a resurrected/ baby Overmind should exist at all, yet there it is.

Yeah that's not how it works. You can't push whatever hypotheses you want because you don't like the mere existence of a plot device.

If one can stretch how the Psi Disruptor (which makes no sense that it should exist as well) counters but not counter the Psi-emitter,

It really isn't difficult. I understood this concept when I was a 10 year old. The psi disruptor impeded Kerrigan's control of her broods yet she still managed to retain a limited degree of control (aka countered yet not countered according to you). That's literally mission 1. The psi disruptor doesn't fully counter everything, as that would be stupid, just like it's also unreasonable to expect some psi emitters to fully counter such a large device as the disruptor beyond perhaps a focal area (Kerrigan's base/scv).

it ain't much of a stretch to explain why a baby Overmind would still want to be looking for psionics (you know, psionics being its main objective for wanting to assimilate the Protoss and all).

Sorry, it makes zero sense:

The baby Overmind is sending out orders to hunt for terran psychics when it's not even grown and has much bigger problems like the disruptor, or the UED pacifying it with drugs? Wouldn't its mental bandwidth be better spent on uniting the swarms, retaking control of Kerrigan, or otherwise securing its position? If you're saying the orders to hunt for human psychics is a vestigial genetic memory from the old Overmind, wouldn't that be highly inefficient to have the swarm led by a character that's not even conscious? Isn't this contradicted by the fact that Daggoth is taking temporary control of the swarm in the baby Overmind's stead? Why would Daggoth care about finding more psychic humans? He has bigger problems and can't control the one psychic human that's already in the swarm.

It's more satisfying than your reason of "for plot convenience". Having the Zerg do things "just because"/"for no reason"/meaninglessly (which is what your theory ultimately encourages) is a disservice to the established Zerg history and serves to make them, disappointingly enough as it is already, as nothing more than generic plot devices.

Given that there's no proof for your Overmind said so hypotheses to begin with, I don't see why you can't go on believing that the Overmind ordered the ghost signals investigated yet still recognize the fact from the game that zerg are just naturally attracted to psi emitters.

Using information that came out only after the initial game and justifying it because it's still in the original game.

Fixed.

[Turalyon]

Where's the confusion?

I think you're the one who's confused. I'm not even refuting that Zerg are attracted to Psi-emitters, I'm refuting that the Psi-emitters are the cause of the attraction.

I love how we've entered the nitpicking semantics phase of the debate where I provide all the evidence and you ignore it, and in the meantime I'm still waiting on a shred of evidence for the "Overmind said so" hypotheses that includes more than just rampant speculation.

I love how you keep insisting that what you call "evidence" is sufficient for a conclusion that is not even supported nor even remotely implied. I love how you can dismiss the systematic breakdown of your fallacious position as "nitpicking semantics" because you can't actually defend it with any similar sense of rigor.

As to evidence about the Overmind being the cause of Zerg attraction, I have all I need in the Zerg history of the manual (the section The Determinant in particular). Cutting it short: The Overmind and the Zerg are one, though the Overmind has supreme authority over the Zerg. The Overmind wants to a psionic individual and goes about seeking those with psionic capability. The Overmind is attracted to psionics. Because they are one, we can conclude that the Zerg are attracted to psionics and that any attraction at the Zerg level can be attributed to the Overmind.

One can also conclude that the Zerg alone/innately/without the Overmind are attracted to psionics but there is no basis or circumstantial evidence for this in Sc1 because the Zerg are never without the Overmind. Moreover, to insist that this is more correct over the Overmind as the cause of this attraction with what information we have in Sc1 is an argument from ignorance.

Your evidence relies on so-called implied cues (which I have proven to be incorrect implied cues) that are actually weaker than the heavily implied cues (some would call this direct evidence, but I won't because then you'd probably get mad at me) in The Determinant section of the Zerg history in manual suggesting the Overmind is the direct reason for any Zerg attraction to psionics.

I'm quoting facts from the game, your hypotheses isn't even a working theory since it essentially creates even more plotholes in Brood War.

The question of the origin of Zerg attraction to psionics is not even an overt and damaging plothole in BW, because there is an Overmind present there. It is a plot hole in Covert Ops however (unless it's revealed that the Overmind has comeback again ).

Did you really think I've been railing against the Overmind retcon all these years just because "it's my opinion"? :P

Although I could probably give a reasonable defence to those points you raised, if I put my mind to it, I have no inclination to do so since it's not worth it and I'd start hating myself . The retcon is more distasteful to me not because of any contradictions it may raise and how it neuters my beloved Zerg, but how it overtly it telegraphs itself as nothing more than a poorly conceived and presented plot device that sets an unhealthy precedent that absolutely anything can happen, at any time or any place, with no rhyme or reason.

You can't push whatever hypotheses you want because you don't like the mere existence of a plot device.

Huh. So somehow you can use the Psi-Disruptor (a plot device) to "push whatever hypothesis you want" but I can't do the same with the Overmind's continued existence in BW (a plot device). How quaint.

The psi disruptor doesn't fully counter everything, as that would be stupid, just like it's also unreasonable to expect some psi emitters to fully counter such a large device as the disruptor beyond perhaps a focal area (Kerrigan's base/scv).

It's unclear why a psi-emitter would even counter the disruptor since all it does it spit out an amplified Ghosts psionic imprint. I could use mental gymnastics but I hear that's a big no-no for you.

[Gradius]

I think you're the one who's confused. I'm not even refuting that Zerg are attracted to Psi-emitters, I'm refuting that the Psi-emitters are the cause of the attraction.

I love how you keep insisting that what you call "evidence" is sufficient for a conclusion that is not even supported nor even remotely implied. I love how you can dismiss the systematic breakdown of your fallacious position as "nitpicking semantics" because you can't actually defend it with any similar sense of rigor.

Sorry but ignoring quotes from the game that clearly give the ghost as the cause of the attraction does not constitute a "systematic breakdown" of anything. The game gives no other explanation and it's an explanation that makes the most sense, therefore it's the one being used.

I mean sure, it could be that the source behind the attraction was actually Santa Claus pulling the strings all along but that's an argument from ignorance and has as much evidence as your "Overmind said so" hypothesis. Too bad you can't apply the same "systematic breakdown" to your position. Give me a break. :P

As to evidence about the Overmind being the cause of Zerg attraction, I have all I need in the Zerg history of the manual (the section The Determinant in particular). Cutting it short: The Overmind and the Zerg are one, though the Overmind has supreme authority over the Zerg. The Overmind wants to a psionic individual and goes about seeking those with psionic capability. The Overmind is attracted to psionics. Because they are one, we can conclude that the Zerg are attracted to psionics and that any attraction at the Zerg level can be attributed to the Overmind.

One can also conclude that the Zerg alone/innately/without the Overmind are attracted to psionics but there is no basis or circumstantial evidence for this in Sc1 because the Zerg are never without the Overmind. Moreover, to insist that this is more correct over the Overmind as the cause of this attraction with what information we have in Sc1 is an argument from ignorance.

So you go on a giant lecture about the post hoc fallacy and how my conclusion isn't ever "remotely implied" even though I'm quoting the game, and in the meantime this is the best "evidence" you can come up with?

1) I'm not contesting the fact that the Overmind leads the swarm, I'm contesting the fact that theyre only attracted because the Overmind said so. Find something relevant.

2) The Overmind also delegates orders to inferiors. Overlords are responsible for actually issuing orders to individual units. The attraction to psi emitters could be innate at any level. So your Overmind said so hypotheses isn't the only possible reason for attraction to psi emitters, aka post hoc fallacy. Sound familiar?

3) Again maybe the Overmind is both looking for psychics and Zerg can both be attracted to psi emitters. They're not mutually exclusive. You're the one making the claim that they're only attracted because of the Overmind and that this is therefore a problem in future installments, even though NONE of the games actually say that. Therefore the burden of proof is on you. That's just how debates work.

4) Feel free to at any point actually address all the plot holes your hypothesis creates in BW. Until then your hypothesis can be dismissed as mere speculation.

It's unclear why a psi-emitter would even counter the disruptor since all it does it spit out an amplified Ghosts psionic imprint. I could use mental gymnastics but I hear that's a big no-no for you.

A psi emitter emits a psi signal and the disruptor disrupts it. Let me know if you have any other questions. :P

[Visions of Khas]

Psi disruptors do not directly interfere with psionic waveforms. Rather, they emit Sigma radiation which disrupts psi-receptive cellular tissue in zerg. Go back over Stettman's notes in WoL.

[Gradius]

Psi disruptors do not directly interfere with psionic waveforms. Rather, they emit Sigma radiation which disrupts psi-receptive cellular tissue in zerg. Go back over Stettman's notes in WoL.

So? It still does not preclude psi emitters from counteracting the effect. Kerrigan could counteract the psi disrupter's effect to a degree just by concentrating more.

[Turalyon]

Sorry but ignoring quotes from the game that clearly give the ghost as the cause of the attraction does not constitute a "systematic breakdown" of anything.

How have I ignored the quotes you gave when I went on to break them down and reveal how they don't even support your fallacious conclusion?

I mean sure, it could be that the source behind the attraction was actually Santa Claus pulling the strings all along but that's an argument from ignorance and has as much evidence as your "Overmind said so" hypothesis.

Please enlighten me as to how Santa Claus is just as plausible as the Overmind as being the reason behind the Zerg attraction to psionics using the Sc1 manual as a source. Way to clutch the strawman!

So you go on a giant lecture about the post hoc fallacy and how my conclusion isn't ever "remotely implied" even though I'm quoting the game, and in the meantime this is the best "evidence" you can come up with?

So now you want to compare evidence? Well, given that I've proven that the quotes you've provided are not even adequate to support your claims, you don't even technically have any evidence. You can't even offer a reasoned rebuttal to my argument beyond insisting still on the quotes having some magical quality that supports your fallacious conclusion. What little evidence I do have trumps your "evidence" already by default.

I'm contesting the fact that theyre only attracted because the Overmind said so.

You have failed to do so convincingly. There is no way you can conclude from Sc1 alone that Zerg without an Overmind are inherently attracted to psionics because the Zerg are never without the Overmind when being attracted psionics in Sc1. To do so is an argument from ignorance.

The Overmind also delegates orders to inferiors. Overlords are responsible for actually issuing orders to individual units. The attraction to psi emitters could be innate at any level.

How does being issued orders from Overlords have anything to do with the idea of Zerg without Overmind direction being innately attracted to psionics? For these two mutually exclusive observations to even inform one another would require "mental gymnastics" from the layman.

Again maybe the Overmind is both looking for psychics and Zerg can both be attracted to psi emitters. They're not mutually exclusive.

What gives you reason to say that they're not mutually exclusive beyond making an appeal to ignorance?

You're the one making the claim that they're only attracted because of the Overmind and that this is therefore a problem in future installments, even though NONE of the games actually say that.

I'm seeing how easily this line of reasoning can also be applied to justify the Overmind free-will retcon: "I'm the one making the claim that the Overmind always had freewill and that this is therefore a problem in future installments (because of WoL introducing this retcon and creating a problem), even though NONE of the games actually say that (that the Overmind always had free-will)" and how unreasonable it is, yet this line of argument is somehow appropriate now.

Feel free to at any point actually address all the plot holes your hypothesis creates in BW.

None.

A psi emitter emits a psi signal and the disruptor disrupts it. Let me know if you have any other questions. :P

You forgot the bit about when the disruptor doesn't always disrupt or incompletely disrupts the psi signal from the psi emitter because the psi emitter still works even though the disruptor disrupts it.... so yeah, it's very clear... like mud.

[Gradius]

How have I ignored the quotes you gave when I went on to break them down and reveal how they don't even support your fallacious conclusion?

"The emitters broadcast the neural imprint of a Ghost, but at a much greater magnitude. These things reach across worlds."
"the Psi Emitters reached out to the far corners of the Terran Sector, luring billions of Zerg to the capitol world of Tarsonis."

That's all the game says on the topic of psi emitters. A terran psychic channeling into them lures zerg to them. That's it. How are quotes from the game a "fallacious conclusion"? -_-

Stop ignoring evidence.

Please enlighten me as to how Santa Claus is just as plausible as the Overmind as being the reason behind the Zerg attraction to psionics using the Sc1 manual as a source. Way to clutch the strawman!

Uhm, neither of those things are in the manual. That's my point.

So now you want to compare evidence? Well, given that I've proven that the quotes you've provided are not even adequate to support your claims, you don't even technically have any evidence. You can't even offer a reasoned rebuttal to my argument beyond insisting still on the quotes having some magical quality that supports your fallacious conclusion. What little evidence I do have trumps your "evidence" already by default.

Sorry, but banging your head against the wall and pretending the quotes say something else isn't a valid debate tactic.

Your "systematic breakdown" basically consists of badgering me about why the cause of attraction to psi emitters couldn't be caused by something besides what it says in the game. You're saying "It's from a limited perspective - the Terran perspective." But guess what? The "terran perspective" is also the audience perspective unless otherwise stated somewhere, and it's not my obligation to prove that the attraction isn't due to santa claus or literally anything else that's not what the audience is given at face value. Essentially, your position is the epitome of argument from ignorance, like an example that you'd expect to find in wikipedia if you ever looked the term up.

You're making the extraordinary claim, so the burden of proof is on you. Unfortunately, your hypothesis is stated nowhere, so...that sucks!

You have failed to do so convincingly. There is no way you can conclude from Sc1 alone that Zerg without an Overmind are inherently attracted to psionics because the Zerg are never without the Overmind when being attracted psionics in Sc1. To do so is an argument from ignorance.

Zerg without an Overmind? Pretty irrelevant to the topic at hand. I'm literally quoting the game, that the zerg are attracted to psionics. Nice try switching goalposts though. <_<

How does being issued orders from Overlords have anything to do with the idea of Zerg without Overmind direction being innately attracted to psionics? For these two mutually exclusive observations to even inform one another would require "mental gymnastics" from the layman.

I'm sorry that common sense is now mental gymnastics. Not all underlings are going to have the same desires/drives as their superiors, and the Overmind can override any other action of a subordinate if he so chooses. I thought that was obvious, and it's your job to prove it wrong.

What gives you reason to say that they're not mutually exclusive beyond making an appeal to ignorance?

So when you "systematically disassemble" my position by going on a giant rant on the post-hoc fallacy, that just because x follows y, doesn't mean x caused y, it's awesome and you're a genius. But when I do literally the same exact thing to you by pointing out that what you think is happening could actually be caused by something else, it's an argument from ignorance. Cool double standards bro.

I'm seeing how easily this line of reasoning can also be applied to justify the Overmind free-will retcon: "I'm the one making the claim that the Overmind always had freewill

It's not just me making the claim that the Overmind wasn't enslaved by Amon, it's a concept that's fully invalidated by the original game. Again, I didn't base my position on pure opinion like you admit you did. Find a different strawman to attack. We literally just talked about this.

None.

Start working on this quote then:

The baby Overmind is sending out orders to hunt for terran psychics when it's not even grown and has much bigger problems like the disruptor, or the UED pacifying it with drugs? Wouldn't its mental bandwidth be better spent on uniting the swarms, retaking control of Kerrigan, or otherwise securing its position? If you're saying the orders to hunt for human psychics is a vestigial genetic memory from the old Overmind, wouldn't that be highly inefficient to have the swarm led by a character that's not even conscious? Isn't this contradicted by the fact that Daggoth is taking temporary control of the swarm in the baby Overmind's stead? Why would Daggoth care about finding more psychic humans? He has bigger problems and can't control the one psychic human that's already in the swarm.

Because as of now your hypotheses makes zero freaking sense and it's laughable that you think it should take precedence over actual quotes from the game that don't create plotholes.

You forgot the bit about when the disruptor doesn't always disrupt or incompletely disrupts Kerrigan's orders because Kerrigan's orders still work even though the disruptor disrupts them.... so yeah, it's very clear... like mud.

Fixed.

Again, when you finally figure out how Kerrigan can still control zerg even though the disruptor is active, you'll figure out the psi emitter too.

[Turalyon]

How are quotes from the game a "fallacious conclusion"? -_-

Your conflating these quotes as being evidence for your fallacious conclusion that the cause of the Zerg attraction is "just because" when they are clearly not.

Those quotes do not even imply why they are being lured (which is what we're trying to determine).

"The emitters broadcast the neural imprint of a Ghost, but at a much greater magnitude. These things reach across worlds."

There is nothing in that quote that supports the notion that Zerg without an Overmind would be innately attracted to psionics.

"the Psi Emitters reached out to the far corners of the Terran Sector, luring billions of Zerg to the capitol world of Tarsonis."

How does this support the notion that feral Zerg are innately attracted to psionics to the exclusion and priority over the presence of the Overmind? The Overmind is still the will of the Zerg at this point.

Uhm, neither of those things are in the manual. That's my point.

Excerpt from The Determinant in the Zerg history of the manual. "Despite innumberable victories, the Overmind was greatly disturbed. The Overmind was aware that the Protoss had become a highly psionic race, able to bend and warp the very fabric of reality to their whims. It sought a way to counter the awesome might of the Protoss, but found no answers among the genetic strains it devoured.

On the verge of despair, the Overmind made an amazing discovery. One of its deep-space probes had relayed the location and vital statistics of a race that occupied a series of nondescript worlds, right under the shadow of the Protoss.

The new race, called Humanity, was mere generations away from developing into a formidable psionic power. But the Overmind also knew that Humanity was still in its infant stages, hardly capable of defending itself against the ravenous Zerg. Although a short-lived and seemingly frail species, the Overmind knew that Humanity would be the final determinant in its victory over the Protoss. If it could assimilate the psionic potential of Humanity, the Overmind would have the ability to combat the Protoss on its own terms."

Your turn to find the reference that Santa Claus is the more reasonable explanation behind the Zerg attraction to psionics than the Overmind.

Sorry, but banging your head against the wall and pretending the quotes say something else isn't a valid debate tactic.

Neither is putting fingers in your ears and going "lalalalalala".

Your "systematic breakdown" basically consists of badgering me about why the cause of attraction to psi emitters couldn't be caused by something besides what it says in the game.

Huh, isn't this the whole point of this discussion, to nut out the cause of Zerg attraction to psionics? I've demonstrated that your quotes don't even imply even a specific cause and that your subsequent conclusion for the cause of Zerg attraction to psionics amounts to a giant shrug of "well, stuff happens". Worse, your conclusion has the unfortunate implication of minimising/denying the Zerg their motivations and their identity as nothing more than covenient plotting in the story of Sc1, which is bad enough considering in BW, the Zerg are indeed nothing more than plot device/artifice. Ain't no way I'm gonna drink that Kool-aid without pitching a hissy fit.

You're saying "It's from a limited perspective - the Terran perspective." But guess what? The "terran perspective" is also the audience perspective unless otherwise stated somewhere

By that same accord, are we then to trust what Mengsk says in that "the Zerg are a secret weapon developed by the Confederacy"? He believes "the aliens were their creation", so we should, too, right?

You're making the extraordinary claim, so the burden of proof is on you. Unfortunately, your hypothesis is stated nowhere, so...that sucks!

What makes my claim so extraordinary? The conceit of the story behind the Zerg has the Overmind deciding to attacking the Terrans only because of their psionic potential and yet, on your own whim, that's disregarded as proof as to why the Zerg are attracted to psionics.

Not only do you deny that, but you then claim that Zerg, feral or no, are innately attracted to psionics when there is no proof in Sc1 that feral Zerg are attracted to psionics. You then use quotes that do not even imply such a thing (by claiming "attunement" is defined as attraction/the reason for the attraction when any dictionary will prove you wrong). The weight of your evidence has been dismantled at every level and you've yet to counter my evidence beyond "I don't like it because it creates imaginary plotholes". So, who is really making the extraordinary claim of the two, here?

I'm literally quoting the game, that the zerg are attracted to psionics.

When did I ever dispute this? I thought that the point of all this was that we were trying to get at the reason as to why they are attracted to psionics.

I'm sorry that common sense is now mental gymnastics. Not all underlings are going to have the same desires/drives as their superiors, and the Overmind can override any other action of a subordinate if he so chooses. I thought that was obvious, and it's your job to prove it wrong.

Let me rephrase, how does being controlled through psionics of one type in any way correspond or inform you that that very thing be controlled is also innately attracted to psionics of another type? The explanation you gave would not be readily apparent to the lay person. Besides, I think of the Overmind and all the Zerg as one organism, unified in purpose and thought.

So when you "systematically disassemble" my position by going on a giant rant on the post-hoc fallacy, that just because x follows y, doesn't mean x caused y, it's awesome and you're a genius. But when I do literally the same exact thing to you by pointing out that what you think is happening could actually be caused by something else, it's an argument from ignorance. Cool double standards bro.

Didn't mean to sound "all superior", it was a genuine question. You started off the statement with a supposition ("Again maybe the Overmind....") and then ended it with a definitive declaration and it confused me.

Also, I don't see where you've pointed out a post-hoc fallacy. The manual establishes that the Overmind and the Zerg in general are one, that the will of the Zerg is the Overmind and that the attraction to psionics came from the Overmind specifically (it wanted a psionic). That's plenty to establish "x caused y". Whilst the possibility exists that feral Zerg (those without the Overmind) can still be attracted to psionics on their lonesome, it remains as an argument from ignorance since there's actually no evidence, circumstantial (your quotes purport to be this but are proven to be just hearsay) or otherwise to support the notion at that point in time.

It's not just me making the claim that the Overmind wasn't enslaved by Amon, it's a concept that's fully invalidated by the original game.....We literally just talked about this.

Yeah, I know. I was just stating that largely because if I did adopt the reasoning you just gave, I would be accused rightly of being inconsistent, cherry-picking and hypocritical in my thinking. Your demand that I give you evidence that directly says "the Overmind is the specific cause of the observed Zerg attraction to psionics" is as unreasonable as those who ask for evidence that directly says "the Overmind was always metaphysically free from the start".

The baby Overmind is sending out orders to hunt for terran psychics when it's not even grown and has much bigger problems like the disruptor, or the UED pacifying it with drugs?

Why not? Acquiring psionics is the key to it's ultimate victory is it not? Besides, we are talking about the presence/existence of mere attraction to psionics (the presence of the Overmind is enough to ensure at least that), not a specific act of attraction in "actively sending out orders to hunt for Terran psyhics".

Wouldn't its mental bandwidth be better spent on uniting the swarms, retaking control of Kerrigan, or otherwise securing its position?

Who says it wasn't trying to do all this? We don't know since the neo-Overmind is a plot-device with no precedent nor is it given any point of view. All we know is that it doesn't have enough strength in that moment to do anything of those overtly large tasks but that it eventually could given enough time. In the meantime, why not continue passively looking for a secret weapon and jumping at a possible opportunity whenever it presents itself?

If you're saying the orders to hunt for human psychics is a vestigial genetic memory from the old Overmind, wouldn't that be highly inefficient to have the swarm led by a character that's not even conscious? Isn't this contradicted by the fact that Daggoth is taking temporary control of the swarm in the baby Overmind's stead? Why would Daggoth care about finding more psychic humans? He has bigger problems and can't control the one psychic human that's already in the swarm.

There is no Daggoth (as a single entity) in BW, since it had already merged with other cerebrates in order to create this neo-Overmind (Kerrigan says so in The Quest of the Uraj... unless she's lying ), so I guess you can blame Daggoth for making the Swarm supposedly "highly inefficient" and "led by a character that's not even conscious".

Fixed.

What did you fix? It still says "so yeah, it's very clear... like mud" at the end.

Again, when you finally figure out how Kerrigan can still control zerg even though the disruptor is active, you'll figure out the psi emitter too.

Well, you did say "A psi emitter emits a psi signal and the disruptor disrupts it" first and then changed your mind by correcting my addition to your quote by saying the psi disruptor only disrupts Kerrigan's orders. So which is it? Also, Mengsk's speech in Reign of Fire implies that the psi emitter is not the thing that even directly enables Kerrigan to control the Zerg since "the Emitter should be able to get the attention of any renegade Zerg near it. The SCV will then be able to lure the Zerg back to your base. Once the Zerg arrive there, you'll be able to assert direct control over them", only for the gameplay to then demonstrate that the emitter-holding-SCV actually is able to allow direct player control over neutral Zerg by going near them. What's weirder still is that they even need the Psi-emitter at all since they start the mission by disabling the Psi-Disruptor's primary generator so it shouldn't be working anyway/Kerrigan should've been able to control the Zerg without a Psi-emitter (which doesn't allow direct control of Zerg anyway according to Mengsk)! Do I start with the mental gymnastics now?