Should depot submerge be a research?

[ArcherofAiur]

The theoretical number crunching balance machine says it's imbalanced, and while that TNCB is usually right

lol what?


Im not going to be convinced till I see a bunch of scientific looking equations and a pretty graph with one line rocketing off the chart

[DemolitionSquid]

lol what?


Im not going to be convinced till I see a bunch of scientific looking equations and a pretty graph with one line rocketing off the chart

If memory serves, not even that seems to convince you of imbalance.

[ArcherofAiur]

Ok ive crunched the numbers using the TNCB and plotted how hard it is for each of the races to scout at time X.



We can clearly see that Terran is, in fact, imbalanced. And if anyone is wondering the loop at time point "RR" is when Terrans reapers are running circles around your probes.

[Pandonetho]

I'm against this. There is no reason to not wall, ever. whether submerge is researched or not. There is no mobility to lose with new pathing AND the fact that only until you hit tank tech will mobility out your choke be an issue. What, so then are people who support making it researchable going to support having it researched after tank tech to balance out the "mobility" trade off?

Making it researchable solves no problems IMO. Lifting one barracks will cause you to lose production yes, but that's only 1 marine you're losing production for, because once you move out you land and continue to produce. Actually in fact, most people after gaining their initial forces just move their rax out of the way for the rest of the game.

[DemolitionSquid]

I think the solution here lies not with fixing the depots, but tweaking the workers. Workers should be able to pass between buildings effortlessly, and be the only units who can do so. The only foreseeable issue with this is worker rushes, but they usually happen before any buildings are even made.

[Santrega]

There is no reason this should be researched. Considering the UI improvements, a player will simply move one scv out and wall in anyway. Reapers will allow him to get into the opponents base anyway, so that doesnt hurt his harassment, and you simply build CC's lift off and move to a new base, while preparing to use mules as soon as they get there to get harvesting moving right away at that base.

I really dont see how making this require research will stop wall-ins. It really is the only way to protect yourself against scouting/early rushes as a terran player.

[Blazur]

It really is the only way to protect yourself against scouting/early rushes as a terran player.

Naturally. But just try and think about it conceptually from the perspective of players facing off against Terrans. Does it sound fun repeatedly running up against a blockade at the top of a choke? Both Protoss and Zerg tier 1 infantry are melee, meaning any blockades using them can be bested with range or by slowly dwindling away at the army. Terrans on the other have range with nearly all their initial units (excluding the hellion), meaning they can easily hide behind the wall and even repair it if it's in trouble...making it incredibly difficult to blast through early on.

This doesn't sound annoying to anybody else? Imagine having 10 games in a row start off in this same fashion.

[DemolitionSquid]

Welcome to how I feel about the macro mechanics, Blazur.

Also, read my last post again and comment on it

[Blazur]

Welcome to how I feel about the macro mechanics, Blazur.

Also, read my last post again and comment on it

I hear ya. As for your suggestion, I believe there's more to it than simply blocking passage of workers. It's simply too easy for Terran players to remain completely near harmless from any ground troops early on in the game, and this supply depot wall tactic is a borderline cheese strategy that's too easy and a no-brainer. I wish there was some cost or delay involved with getting this type of setup, because I'm not fond of the idea of having to constantly face off against it.

Zerg at least have the option to punch through it using banelings. Protoss might be able to push their way through using brute force with zealots. So while there are some solutions, it's the notion that we'll always have to deal with this blockage on select maps that I'm generally unhappy with. Because you know damn well every single Terran player will open up with this tactic.

[ArcherofAiur]

Naturally. But just try and think about it conceptually from the perspective of players facing off against Terrans. Does it sound fun repeatedly running up against a blockade at the top of a choke?

That was how it was in Starcraft 1. And it is fun. Why not get mad at bases having chokes, harrasment cliffs or natural expansions?