Should depot submerge be a research?

[Blazur]

First of all I think it's really clever how they allow for submersion of supply depots so you can use them as walls without any repercussions. However, the latest battle report demonstrates a scenario which is likely to be used in every single game while playing against Terran players. Given one choke into a base, you can always expect Terran's to wall it off with depots essentially cutting short any early-game harassment or reconnaissance.

Terran's would be foolish not to do so, because they have nothing to lose from this strategy. But for those playing against Terran's I feel as if this would get irritating after repeat play. Not being able to commit early harassment or observe what tech their researching until mid game seems like it'll take much of the fun out of the game.

The solution? Make depot submersion a research available at the engineering bay. This way there's a bit of a delay before Terran's can enable this, and if they choose to block their ramp completely they do so at the loss of mobility at least until the meta game develops.

What are people's opinions of this? Are you accepting of the fact that against Terrans on one choke, you will almost always be confronted with depot blockades?

[Xyvik]

Are you accepting of the fact that against Terrans on one choke, you will almost always be confronted with depot blockades?

No, I'm not. As it currently stands I support the idea of it being research. Terrans already have an advantage against early harassment in the fact that they have the toughest workers in the game. Giving them free walls with no repercussions is currently imbalanced.

Any other ideas besides making it researchable?

[ArcherofAiur]

Even if submerge was a research terran would still wall in with depots.

[Xyvik]

That is correct. However, the current walling in with depots prevents early game recon of a terran base. Even if the terrans still wall in, without submerging their depots, it will be more balanced because they will lose mobility. It's called a trade-off.

[ArcherofAiur]

It's called a trade-off.

Its called a trade-off that is very difficult for new players to grasp. Right now submerging depots does a great job of teaching new players how to wall-in. This was a part of the learning curve that SC1 really struggled with and submerging depots make wall-in a fun dynamic experience.

I think it would be a very bad move to push it up the tech tree. Besides after cliff-walkers and transports come out the submerging depots have much less of an impact on play.

[Blazur]

Even if submerge was a research terran would still wall in with depots.

It's certainly possible, but there's consequences in doing so. The main drawback is that it prevents them from venturing out of the base early on and possibly giving players the freedom to expand early or establish a perimeter around the base. Plus in order to free themselves from their base using ground troops they'd have to invest the money to research the upgrade, cutting into their army budget.

Players can still opt for a wall using a mixture of depots and barracks, but that could still slow things down for the Terran player as units pop out on either side or they need to constantly lift it off.

Remember, visibility is limited by cliffs. So when a choke is placed at the top of a ramp you'll only be able to fit a few units on there before you reach that barricade. Just a few marines behind that wall is enough to stop most threats for a good 5-10 minutes of the game, making the beginning suddenly boring.

[unentschieden]

I don´t think it´s a good idea. The described scenario i think is entirely intentional. Scouting is a very very fine line - if it´s to easy the game is just "build the counter", if it´s too much it´s guessing/cookie cutter. Zerg kinda have the same advantage, no initial scout can outrun creepboosted zerglings and Queen.
Research would doom it to the same fate as Burrow - criminal underutilisation.

[FoxSpirit]

Well, you can do it in SC too... and lifting off the baracks isn't that much more complicated than submerging depots.

[Xyvik]

Well, you can do it in SC too... and lifting off the baracks isn't that much more complicated than submerging depots.

but when the barracks is lifted it cannot be producing units, which is part of the trade-off.

Archer, the Terrans are powerful enough and newb friendly enough as it is. A little extra thinking for newbs wouldn't be a bad thing. If proper tutorials were included it could teach newcomers the importance of walling in and why you might not want to.

As it stands, Terran has a marked advantage in early game scouting. They can easily prevent anybody from seeing what they are teching for, leaving opponents guessing completely, while the Terrans can scout people at will.

It may seem like a small advantage, but only time and testing will see if it ends up being an imbalanced one. The theoretical number crunching balance machine says it's imbalanced, and while that TNCB is usually right it takes actual testing to see how the imbalance can be rectified.

[Caliban113]

Guess I'm not seeing the issue; even with a 'submerge' upgrade, Terran would just continue to use the Barracks as a gate until the upgrade was complete. (?) (Which David Kim did anyway.)