Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 34

Thread: Duran's Motives and the Tal'darim Factor

  1. #21

    Default Re: Duran's Motives and the Tal'darim Factor

    Quote Originally Posted by Visions of Khas View Post
    Cool. I always wondered which it was. And Selendis' comment didn't help clarify things.
    Well since you're on Selendis, that was the other thing that bothered me for Kerrigan thinking the Protoss had too little faith in her. She REALLY should have thought back to her history. Now, if she tried to make up for it after WoL in itself, then there's grounds for it all.

  2. #22

    Default Re: Duran's Motives and the Tal'darim Factor

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    I'm not saying it proves one thing or another, I'm saying it's clearer/more cogent with the narrative that Sc2 is trying to sell if Infested Kerrigan's power was the only thing that can free Amon. I can't see why not consideing that the major theme of Sc2 is to show us how special, unique and powerful these singular characters are.
    To me that shouldn't have been the case. No one is supposed to have THAT much importance. Sure the developers were trying to go for a redemption route on her, and look where that turned out in HotS. If nothing else they should have just let Amon survive LotV so a sequel can be made, and Kerrigan's stress on her importance (if there ever was any) would be nullified as it's now proven she's NOT the key to it all.

  3. #23

    Default Re: Duran's Motives and the Tal'darim Factor

    Quote Originally Posted by ragnarok View Post
    To me that shouldn't have been the case. No one is supposed to have THAT much importance.
    That depends on the nature and intent of the story that was written. For example, if a story is about superheroes - then the superhero is supposed to have the highest "importance" and focus because it's a justified conceit for that particular genre. Now whether you consider the stories in Sc2 are about anything else but a story about superheroes, is something that I'll leave you to ponder.

    Quote Originally Posted by ragnarok View Post
    If nothing else they should have just let Amon survive LotV so a sequel can be made, and Kerrigan's stress on her importance (if there ever was any) would be nullified as it's now proven she's NOT the key to it all.
    Dear Lord, no! Amon, as a plot element, is partly why the narrative falls flat. One can try to make him as sympathetic and as awesome possible but really, at the end of the day, his mere presence out of nowhere as some great evil to be overcome just smacks of contrivance. Honestly, the conception of the character is just an excuse for a sequel to exist and even then, his presence is so perfunctory that two-thirds of Sc2 can go on with his parts excised and you'd be none the wiser. The UED (as presented in BW) and heck, even the Overmind/Zerg in Sc1 can also be accused of similar things to a degree, but at least they had presence.

    Having such a non-entity that lacks presence for more than half the trilogy, then appearing in full force (having presence) at the end only to then have him continue on after the end will render Sc2 as a complete waste of time it already threatened itself to be. HotS more or less cancels out WoL and LotV more or less ignores what happens in HotS and carries on without one needing to know what happened in either WoL or HotS. If one then just goes and undermines the supposed climax that is the last of the "trilogy" by having Amon just escape to be a major threat for another day, I'd be beside myself with rage at how pointless everything in Sc2 turned out to be.

    I'd even go as far as considering Amon surviving as being a worse idea than the Epilogue that we eventually got because even though the epilogue was poorly conceived, felt unearnt and like a cheat, it had finality. It ended. I have at least that to be thankful for. It's one thing leaving something open-ended for the sole reason of blatant sequel bait but doing that on top of a story that took years to complete where nothing of note, consequence or merit happened... that's just plain disrespect/disdain a writer is showing to their audience.
    Yes, that's right! That is indeed ME on the right.


    _______________________________________________

  4. #24

    Default Re: Duran's Motives and the Tal'darim Factor

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    That depends on the nature and intent of the story that was written. For example, if a story is about superheroes - then the superhero is supposed to have the highest "importance" and focus because it's a justified conceit for that particular genre. Now whether you consider the stories in Sc2 are about anything else but a story about superheroes, is something that I'll leave you to ponder.
    But it was never about superheroes. Raynor and Kerrigan's relationship was stressed too much. To me this was only supposed to be acceptable in WoL and maybe the initial part of HotS, that's it. Besides, even before HotS came out I did agree with Gradius's POV that it wasn't smart of Blizzard to have focused WoL on just one person, made it seem like no one else did anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    I'd even go as far as considering Amon surviving as being a worse idea than the Epilogue that we eventually got because even though the epilogue was poorly conceived, felt unearnt and like a cheat, it had finality. It ended. I have at least that to be thankful for. It's one thing leaving something open-ended for the sole reason of blatant sequel bait but doing that on top of a story that took years to complete where nothing of note, consequence or merit happened... that's just plain disrespect/disdain a writer is showing to their audience.
    Yes it was a disappointment in the epilogue mainly because they wanted to throw something together to explain why Kerrigan was necessary in the prophecy. In reality it never had to be, since the 1st epilogue mission revealed Ouros was the one who made it all, and he certainly could have been wrong....

  5. #25

    Default Re: Duran's Motives and the Tal'darim Factor

    Quote Originally Posted by ragnarok View Post
    But it was never about superheroes.
    I know it should have been this but one can hardly tell now given how the stories in Sc2 are told and presented.

    Quote Originally Posted by ragnarok View Post
    Raynor and Kerrigan's relationship was stressed too much.
    Eh, if you think of Sc2 as a superhero story, a romance/love interest sub-plot ain't out of the ordinary since it helps feed into the motivation for a superhero's actions...

    Quote Originally Posted by ragnarok View Post
    Yes it was a disappointment in the epilogue mainly because they wanted to throw something together to explain why Kerrigan was necessary in the prophecy. In reality it never had to be, since the 1st epilogue mission revealed Ouros was the one who made it all, and he certainly could have been wrong....
    To me, what you're describing there is actually quite interesting because the "prophecy" in WoL turns out to be a self-fulfilling prophecy instigated by Ouros as a way of enacting his master plan to get Kerrigan to him so he can use her to kill Amon. But no, that's not what's mainly disappointing about it. It's disappointing because a) it undermines and sidelines the Protoss in what is supposed to be their very own story, b) it feels like a desperate and hurried attempt to tie the disconnected WoL and HotS together to LotV in order to justify the whole affair as a "connected" trilogy, c) the introduction of Ouros is like a(nother) deus ex machina who offers a cheap, convenient and neat resolution that comes out of nowhere and d) feels forced and unnatural to the extent where immersion is broken because the author's intent of wanting it to be a happy, closed ending becomes apparent.

    Even despite all that, I actually still would prefer this epilogue over your suggestion of having Amon survive for another sequel though.
    Yes, that's right! That is indeed ME on the right.


    _______________________________________________

  6. #26

    Default Re: Duran's Motives and the Tal'darim Factor

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    I know it should have been this but one can hardly tell now given how the stories in Sc2 are told and presented.
    Yes, a shame given that the writers completely forgot about the events of WoL when they were writing on HotS, and so on. Hence why I still believe the whole trilogy was written based on the assumption of "No SC fan ever plays the game for the story anyway, so we can do whatever we want on that and no one will notice."

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    Even despite all that, I actually still would prefer this epilogue over your suggestion of having Amon survive for another sequel though.
    Allow Amon to survive would mean Ouros's predictions proved false, and that his actions weren't a Deus Ex Machina moment because Amon found a way around it.

    Besides, in retrospect well before LotV was out, I had actually expected Blizzard to let Amon win in the end using a Deus Ex Machina moment of his own.

  7. #27

    Default Re: Duran's Motives and the Tal'darim Factor

    Quote Originally Posted by ragnarok View Post
    Allow Amon to survive would mean Ouros's predictions proved false, and that his actions weren't a Deus Ex Machina moment because Amon found a way around it.
    The prophecy is already not real (as in not being an actual vision of the future) since it is not fulfilled and will never be (if it were as shown in In Utter Darkness, there's no point in going on since it can't be averted). That's why prophecy is usually such a lame plot device to use. That LotV reveals it was all due to Ouros and that he was pretending to be Tassadar means that he probably made up the Overmind's vision as shown in In Utter Darkness as well. If something is revealed to be unreliable narration, then everything else around it would also be cast into doubt since there is no other metric to help us decide which parts are true or not anymore. Really, it was all just a ruse to dupe Z into keeping Kerrigan alive so that she can eventually come to him so that he could use her to defeat Amon. Ouros wasn't predicting anything - he was planning Amon's defeat from the beginning and that "prophecy" in WoL was part of his plan. He's a much better schemer than Amon ever was.

    Also, having Amon survive his contrived defeat/death is just yet another contrivance piled on top... for the sake of making a sequel no less. Ugh! A crap ending beats never-ending crap anyday.

    Quote Originally Posted by ragnarok View Post
    Besides, in retrospect well before LotV was out, I had actually expected Blizzard to let Amon win in the end using a Deus Ex Machina moment of his own.
    Nah, Blizz is a business focused on mass appeal so there will never do anything that's potentially unmarketable or too edgy for their brand.

    Anyways, pretty much everyone guessed how it would've ended ever since WoL was first announced - that the 3 races would team up and defeat some big bad ancient Xel'Naga-related bad guy. Heck, I remember some guy asking Blizz at some lore panel around the time it was first announced whether it was actually going to end this way, and the Blizz guys just looked at each other guiltily, not saying anything.
    Yes, that's right! That is indeed ME on the right.


    _______________________________________________

  8. #28

    Default Re: Duran's Motives and the Tal'darim Factor

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post

    Also, having Amon survive his contrived defeat/death is just yet another contrivance piled on top... for the sake of making a sequel no less. Ugh! A crap ending beats never-ending crap anyday.



    Nah, Blizz is a business focused on mass appeal so there will never do anything that's potentially unmarketable or too edgy for their brand.

    Anyways, pretty much everyone guessed how it would've ended ever since WoL was first announced - that the 3 races would team up and defeat some big bad ancient Xel'Naga-related bad guy. Heck, I remember some guy asking Blizz at some lore panel around the time it was first announced whether it was actually going to end this way, and the Blizz guys just looked at each other guiltily, not saying anything.
    Yeah I know that about the teamup, but I still didn't expect the ascension, it wasn't needed. Not to mention all the other Xel'Naga could have appeared via flashbacks, and that would have been considered enough.

    As for not potentially doing something unmarketable, you should remember that BW's ending had it so that everything you did was all for nothing. Therefore, I had expected LotV to end the same way.

  9. #29

    Default Re: Duran's Motives and the Tal'darim Factor

    Quote Originally Posted by ragnarok View Post
    Yeah I know that about the teamup, but I still didn't expect the ascension, it wasn't needed.
    Unexpected? Sure. Not needed? Eh.

    The plot "needed" to have Amon defeated by another Xel'Naga. Whether it "needed" to be Kerrigan specifically, well, it seemed that Ouros had his eye on her since the start, so it's probably not a matter of "need" but Ouros wanting Kerrigan to be the instrument of Amon's death. Like I said, eh.

    Quote Originally Posted by ragnarok View Post
    As for not potentially doing something unmarketable, you should remember that BW's ending had it so that everything you did was all for nothing. Therefore, I had expected LotV to end the same way.
    There's a fundamental difference you've overlooked. You played as Zerg and followed Kerrigan's path to victory in BW and the status quo changed enormously. There is a visceral sense of accomplishment there which is marketable ("feel the power of being the bad guy") and it has value beyond just the narrative one. So you're wrong that "everything you did was for nothing" (I'm starting to think you're biased to "things working out well for the good guys is the only thing worthwhile" being what you really mean when you said "everything you did"). You might as well say it's pointless playing Sc1 or BW because the antagonists were defeated in the end and the initial status quo prior to the antagonists coming was reinstated.

    In Sc2, you don't play as Amon at anytime in Sc2. So having him win in the end only has narrative value, a value that is tantamount to a "middle finger" to the audience because they'd have no control whatsoever over this outcome and implies that all the gameplay they've had up to this point was truly meaningless. Gamers don't want to feel their gameplay is a pointless exercise whilst also having that pointed out directly by the story as well.
    Yes, that's right! That is indeed ME on the right.


    _______________________________________________

  10. #30

    Default Re: Duran's Motives and the Tal'darim Factor

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    Unexpected? Sure. Not needed? Eh.

    The plot "needed" to have Amon defeated by another Xel'Naga. Whether it "needed" to be Kerrigan specifically, well, it seemed that Ouros had his eye on her since the start, so it's probably not a matter of "need" but Ouros wanting Kerrigan to be the instrument of Amon's death. Like I said, eh.

    The plot needed nothing of the sort. Hell they didn't even really need to kill Amon, just have him stuck in the Void with no way to corrupt it and no way to get out, wish they had explained more about that part.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    There's a fundamental difference you've overlooked. You played as Zerg and followed Kerrigan's path to victory in BW and the status quo changed enormously. There is a visceral sense of accomplishment there which is marketable ("feel the power of being the bad guy") and it has value beyond just the narrative one. So you're wrong that "everything you did was for nothing" (I'm starting to think you're biased to "things working out well for the good guys is the only thing worthwhile" being what you really mean when you said "everything you did"). You might as well say it's pointless playing Sc1 or BW because the antagonists were defeated in the end and the initial status quo prior to the antagonists coming was reinstated.
    Which to me was wrong because Blizzard seemed (this is before we had any info on HotS) that they were trying to go for the redemption route, and Kerrigan's actions proved in the end the desire for revenge at any cost won out.

    As for the part of playing as Amon, I know what you mean. If nothing else I always wanted to know just what he was doing the whole time, see things from his POV.

Similar Threads

  1. [SPOILERS] Tal'Darim
    By Visions of Khas in forum StarCraft Discussion
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 01-01-2016, 04:43 PM
  2. New Tal'Darim Short Story: Ascension
    By Visions of Khas in forum StarCraft Discussion
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 10-14-2015, 09:37 PM
  3. [Video] Revenge of the Tal'Darim Machinima
    By davidko in forum Off-Topic Lounge
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 09-10-2010, 06:33 PM
  4. Tal'darim in Wings of Liberty
    By RolleR_RATM in forum StarCraft Discussion
    Replies: 35
    Last Post: 08-09-2010, 01:37 PM
  5. Duran in WoL?
    By Jdawsman in forum StarCraft Discussion
    Replies: 34
    Last Post: 08-09-2010, 01:19 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •