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Thread: Duran's Motives and the Tal'darim Factor

  1. #1

    Default Duran's Motives and the Tal'darim Factor

    All right Gradius, since you had repeatedly asked about the Tal'darim matter in the other thread (http://sclegacy.com/forums/showthrea...We-All-Thought), I thought I'd make one here to try to explain things, and I'll try to tie as much of the lores together as I can, but I'm still going to use the SC2 lore to try to make sense of the SC1 lore.

    When I wrote about the idea of very little progress had been made in the 3000 years after Amon was sent back into the Void, you had scoffed at the idea that Kerrigan's psionic energy alone did virtually all the work because there was no possible way she could be that powerful, even during her infested state. I agree with you on that. In this, I would like to refer to what TheBentOne had said on the battlenet forums: Kerrigan's psionic energy alone didn't revive Amon, it was merely the last thing Duran needed to push the proverbial boulder down the hill.

    Recall the prison that Amon was put into when he was forced back into the Void. Now yes, there wasn't much progress made from 2439 to 2499 as the Zerg headed to the Korpulu Sector, since the Overmind didn't know the exact location of Aiur. It was vital that Duran gathered the psionic energies necessary in order to free his master, or the void prison he was stuck in would kill him. By the time of 2499, the situation had grown critical. Clearly Amon didn't have too much longer left to live, and Duran was getting very desperate.

    You had asked why the hell Duran didn't just use the Tal'darim as a psionic energy source. The theory I have for that is simple:

    Think of recharging a battery. The closer it reaches the 0% mark, the longer it's going to take to recharge. Or think of a man on the brink of being starved to death. The closer he is to that brink, the more food he's going to need to make himself full.

    When Amon was banished into the Void around 500 BC, Duran's plan never once changed from simply gathering enough psionic energy to send to his master in order to free him from the void prison. But the more Amon is weakened in that prison, the more psionic energy it's going to need in order to free him. Likely by the time of 2499, Amon was already weakened to near death from being in that void prison, despite having drained Ouros's essence for the last 3000 years in order to keep himself alive. If that's true, it means it would require a huge amount of psionic energy in order to release him, and ensure he'd be relatively strong after he's released from the Void.

    Now, you may want to look at the Tal'darim population: if you had looked at Slayn, you would've noticed the total population is only about 12 million. This is extremely small even compared to the Nerazim population Shakuras, which by 2506 was 194 million.

    Furthermore, the Dark Templar were kicked off Aiur about 3000 years ago, whereas the Tal'darim left Aiur millions of years ago. We already know from Shadow Hunters that there weren't that many Nerazim when they were sent off Aiur via the Xel'Naga freighter ship (I don't know the numbers, maybe a few hundred or something, you can correct me if I'm wrong about that part). This could imply that the Tal'darim were even fewer in number when they left Aiur back then. After all, we were never given the numbers as to just how many Tal'darim Amon took off Aiur...

    Therefore, it's entirely possible that even if the whole of the Tal'darim population on Slayn was sacrificed and their psionic energies transferred to Amon, Duran still wouldn't have had enough in order to help his master escape the void prison and restore him to adequate strength level.

    This is when (relative to him) the miracle happened. Remember, however late in the day it was, the swarm's invasion of Aiur ultimately did occur. Amon had been badly weakened and almost to the point of death after being stuck in the void prison for so long, but with the Aiur invasion, it's possible Duran felt confident that this would finally bring him what he needed to help his master.

    Unfortunately (this is how I see a possible theory would go), because Amon was so badly weakened, he needed way more psionic energy than Duran had originally thought. Thus despite the fact that billions of Khalai Protoss were killed on Aiur by the Zerg, the psionic energies collected still fell just short of expectations. For example, it could like by the end of the Protoss campaign in SC1, Duran had gathered about 95% of the total psionic energy he needed to help Amon.

    To make things even worse, it was at this point in time that Tassadar killed the Overmind. The Zerg broods on Aiur laid scattered and broken, and despite the fact that their rampage continued (as Zeratul was telling Aldaris at the beginning of BW Protoss mission 1), this gave the Khalai people the chance necessary to escape to Shakuras. As a result of this, Duran's plans got thrown into disarray once again because the source of psionic energy he needed for Amon got cut off.

    This brings us to Brood War, and Duran's actions there. The way I see it, in the beginning Duran sided with the UED because he was hoping that once the UED won, he could use their tech to produce the hybrids to keep things going with Amon's plan. After all, the forces sent the Koprulu Sector was just an expedition force, and that defeated the Dominion military just fine, so obviously the UED was a force to be reckoned with. However, Duran quickly realized that just making the hybrids would be of little use if Amon remained imprisoned in the Void. It's also possible that Duran didn't see the possibility that the UED could actually control the 2nd Overmind like that, though this seems unlikely.

    A possible theory could be that when the UED declared to take over the sector, it didn't have to mean brute force to everyone. After all, in the 4th Protoss BW mission, when Stukov made contact with Artanis's fleet, he didn't immediately open fire on them, but rather demanded Artanis's forces power down their weapons. It's entirely possible that perhaps while the UED's plan for the Zerg involved brute force and subjugation, their plans against the Protoss might be to try a non-hostile approach first or something.

    We'll never really know for sure, but if that was indeed the UED's plan, then Duran would have realized that there would be no conflict with the Protoss, and therefore would lead to no more psionic energies to be gathered to help Amon. Therefore, although he would lose a great advantage in the hopes of utilizing UED technology in order to create the hybrids, it was a sacrifice he had to make, since freeing Amon from the void should be top priority.

    This now explains his actions in helping Kerrigan before the UED campaign in BW even ended, as Duran knew all along Kerrigan would betray her allies, and knew that Artanis would likely come for revenge for such actions (as indeed happened in "Omega.")

    The problem, however was that unlike what happened in the Aiur invasion, the bloodshed here with the Protoss was much lower. Therefore, what I see possible is that by the end of the BW, Duran had managed to gather about 99.9999% of the psionic energies needed to free Amon and restore his strength. However because Kerrigan withdrew the swarm and went quiet for the next few years, Duran was denied the last "piece of the puzzle."

    Now, you're probably asking, "Then why the hell in the immediate aftermath of the BW didn't Duran just use the Tal'darim on Slayn?" Very good question. I would have done just that if I was in Duran's position. Retcons and Blizzard stupidity aside, a possible reason could be because Duran didn't want the secret leaked out, and didn't want the Tal'darim to turn on him, since at that point in time he didn't have control over the swarm.

    This brings us to the events right before WoL: likely by that point in time, Duran realized that it was ok to proceed with the hybrid production via Dominion and Moebius tech even though Amon was still stuck in the Void. In that regard, it would mean he had suspected all along that Raynor would succeed in the Char invasion in order to deinfest Kerrigan. Of course, this would be contradictory to the way he was acting in SC2, especially in the LotV epilogue where he had said, "You cannot resist forever, Raynor. You do not deserve to stand among gods."

    In that respect I think Duran suffered the same problem Kerrigan did in her view about Raynor during the infestation years. Both of them seemed to share the view that Raynor was weak and feeble when going up against their personal forces, but was exceptionally skilled and could prevail regardless of the odds when fighting someone else's forces.
    Last edited by ragnarok; 03-29-2016 at 04:49 AM.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Duran's Motives and the Tal'darim Factor

    Exceptionally educational and great write you are about Duran's Motives and the Tal'darim Factor which likewise can possibly develop. Perused the UK Essays from anyplace simply through few ticks.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Duran's Motives and the Tal'darim Factor

    Quote Originally Posted by ragnarok View Post
    You had asked why the hell Duran didn't just use the Tal'darim as a psionic energy source. The theory I have for that is simple:
    **Goes on to read essay and thinks "if this is simple, I can't even imagine what something complicated would look like to Rag"**

    This theory of yours essentially negates the importance of Kerrigan's deinfestation by the artifact and exposes it as the plot gimmick that it really is. It brings into question why Kerrigan's deinfestation is really even required at all. Since she's already a potential thrall of Amon in her original infested state and (as you've put it) Duran was already on the verge of awakening Amon by the time Sc2 starts due to the mass Protoss deaths throughout Sc1/BW, going on to deinfest her to push the actual awakening of Amon over some undisclosed but arbitrary threshold is kinda stupid.

    If Duran's "that close", he can really just kill a few more Protoss by getting the Tal'Darim to attack the rebel Tal'Darim (or heck, the Protoss on Shakuras even) guarding the artifacts to top-up instead of relying on some nobody drunk and hope that he can "find" artifacts he already knows of where to procure, somehow get enough might to go to Char, fight the Zerg and get close enough to use said artifact to drain this last bit of energy to revive Amon.
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  4. #4

    Default Re: Duran's Motives and the Tal'darim Factor

    Bad writing.

    Duran has this massive pool of psionic energy in the form of Terrazine-empowered Tal'darim. There's no reason Amon and Duran need Kerrigan.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Duran's Motives and the Tal'darim Factor

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    **Goes on to read essay and thinks "if this is simple, I can't even imagine what something complicated would look like to Rag"**

    This theory of yours essentially negates the importance of Kerrigan's deinfestation by the artifact and exposes it as the plot gimmick that it really is. It brings into question why Kerrigan's deinfestation is really even required at all. Since she's already a potential thrall of Amon in her original infested state and (as you've put it) Duran was already on the verge of awakening Amon by the time Sc2 starts due to the mass Protoss deaths throughout Sc1/BW, going on to deinfest her to push the actual awakening of Amon over some undisclosed but arbitrary threshold is kinda stupid.
    Personally after LotV I too felt they didn't look at this carefully enough. Prior to LotV, we had all assumed that draining Kerrigan's psionic energy was the last bit necessary to push the bolder down the hill, but LotV made it seem like her energy ALONE did it, and that's utter BS. As I had once stated on the battlenet forums, that'd be the equivalent of using a AAA battery to charge a nuclear reactor.

    The whole deinfestation wasn't required, Tura, but it was something done merely for the sake of energy drain. This makes me believe Duran was unable to program the Keystone to drain her without deinfesting her at the same time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Visions of Khas View Post
    Bad writing.

    Duran has this massive pool of psionic energy in the form of Terrazine-empowered Tal'darim. There's no reason Amon and Duran need Kerrigan.
    You don't know that, again this depended on if Amon was in a weakened state within the Void or not.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Duran's Motives and the Tal'darim Factor

    Quote Originally Posted by ragnarok View Post
    Prior to LotV, we had all assumed that draining Kerrigan's psionic energy was the last bit necessary to push the bolder down the hill, but LotV made it seem like her energy ALONE did it, and that's utter BS.
    Strangely enough, given that Sc2's story is driven by plot machinations above all else, it sort've makes more sense for this particular narrative to have it that Kerrigan's energy alone to have revived Amon because otherwise, it opens even more plotholes that requires even more contrivance to band-aid over. Your "simple" theory is a testament to this since it shows how much one has to bend things/rely on speculation and contrivance in order for it to fit.

    Quote Originally Posted by ragnarok View Post
    The whole deinfestation wasn't required, Tura, but it was something done merely for the sake of energy drain.
    No, no. The story suggests that deinfestation and energy drain is synonymous. Even though deinfestation was not the intended goal, the stripping of her power (the intended goal of draing energy for Amon's revival) results in deinfestation. Thus, the deinfestation is required for the sake of energy drain.

    You're theory comes with the unfortunate implication that the draining of energy (which is synonymous with her deinfestation) from Kerrigan is not really necessary at all since you have not refuted that Duran has other options to get this litle bit of energy that is required to revive Amon but rather that he doesn't take these other options because he wants to make it harder for himself (it's much easier to use the Tal'darim then it is to plan and rely on Raynor doing what he does in WoL) for "reasons" (ie: contrivance). It actually exposes the whole thing as what it is really is: narrative artifice (ie: bad writing).
    Last edited by Turalyon; 01-14-2017 at 01:06 AM.
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  7. #7

    Default Re: Duran's Motives and the Tal'darim Factor

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    Strangely enough, given that Sc2's story is driven by plot machinations above all else, it sort've makes more sense for this particular narrative to have it that Kerrigan's energy alone to have revived Amon because otherwise, it opens even more plotholes that requires even more contrivance to band-aid over. Your "simple" theory is a testament to this since it shows how much one has to bend things/rely on speculation and contrivance in order for it to fit.
    The main matter is that she's not supposed to have that much power, unless whatever was keeping Amon in the Void wasn't really that strong in the first place, and therefore Duran only needed a small amount of psionic energy. But if that's true he could have used the Tal'darim, unless the Xel'Naga who banished Amon into the Void had ensured that nothing he uplifted could be used a source of energy for that, though that's unlikely as that'd make the whole of Amon's plan useless with the hybrid and everything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    No, no. The story suggests that deinfestation and energy drain is synonymous. Even though deinfestation was not the intended goal, the stripping of her power (the intended goal of draing energy for Amon's revival) results in deinfestation. Thus, the deinfestation is required for the sake of energy drain.

    You're theory comes with the unfortunate implication that the draining of energy (which is synonymous with her deinfestation) from Kerrigan is not really necessary at all since you have not refuted that Duran has other options to get this litle bit of energy that is required to revive Amon but rather that he doesn't take these other options because he wants to make it harder for himself (it's much easier to use the Tal'darim then it is to plan and rely on Raynor doing what he does in WoL) for "reasons" (ie: contrivance). It actually exposes the whole thing as what it is really is: narrative artifice (ie: bad writing).
    Well yes Duran could have gotten it from other sources. As I said in the opening post, clearly this was something Blizzard overlooked, the only way this could be done would depend on just what the other Xel'Naga did to Amon after putting him back into the Void.

    Bottom line is that I'm trying to come up with some other reason beyond "Because Blizzard is stupid." You've been to the battlenet forums and you've seen that phrase used so many times it's lost all meaning.
    Last edited by ragnarok; 01-14-2017 at 03:41 AM.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Duran's Motives and the Tal'darim Factor

    No, no. The story suggests that deinfestation and energy drain is synonymous.
    When talking about the Keystone, I remember Karax saying something like, Kerrigan's particular brand of energy was inextricably tied to her zerg infestation. Hence, harvesting her power nullified her infestation. Again, it's just BS.
    Aaand sold.


    Be it through hallowed grounds or lands of sorrow
    The Forger's wake is bereft and fallow

    Is the residuum worth the cost of destruction and maiming;
    Or is the shaping a culling and exercise in taming?

    The road's goal is the Origin of Being
    But be wary through what thickets it winds.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Duran's Motives and the Tal'darim Factor

    Quote Originally Posted by Visions of Khas View Post
    When talking about the Keystone, I remember Karax saying something like, Kerrigan's particular brand of energy was inextricably tied to her zerg infestation. Hence, harvesting her power nullified her infestation. Again, it's just BS.
    That shouldn't have been the case, VoK. Remember the Amerigo mission from SC1?

  10. #10

    Default Re: Duran's Motives and the Tal'darim Factor

    Quote Originally Posted by ragnarok View Post
    The main matter is that she's not supposed to have that much power
    Why not? Doesn't the EU (and Sc2 confirm) that Infested Kerrigan is the "bee's knees" when it comes to psionic power?

    Like I said, if the matter is that "Kerrigan was not to have that much power" we run back into the initial issue that plagued WoL's ending the first time round: that the deinfestation of Kerrigan felt like a shameless plot machination/narrative artifice ("what a twist!") to move the story in an obviously preconceived and unnatural way. That HotS gives up an alternate explanation of it being to drain her power to wake Amon is still a bandaid solution to be sure, but even that only holds if Kerrigan does indeed have this "power" as part of her infestation. If you take that aspect (her infested state having the only sufficient power to wake Amon) away, you have to make up a whole mess of other convulutions to explain why Duran didn't just use other, more convenient sources. Sadly, your theory is exactly that and it's not intuitive or as simple as you would like to believe.

    Quote Originally Posted by ragnarok View Post
    Well yes Duran could have gotten it from other sources.
    Strangely enough, Sc2 never really posits this. In some ways, it's good because if it didn't say Duran could have gotten it from other sources, then maybe he actually couldn't. This then cements the importance of Kerrigan's infested state as being the only source to awaken Amon, justifies (abeit in an arbitrary way) what initially felt like a "throw it in" piece of plotting and actually reduces the creation of more plotholes. Course, it can easily go the other way, too - if it didn't say he could get other sources, he may well and could have. However, this opens up more plot-holes because it begs the question of why he didn't use these sources and why these sources weren't available, leading to an infinite regression of "why" (your theory is this). I'm thinking that Occam's razor tends to tilt in favour of Duran not having any other sources.

    Quote Originally Posted by ragnarok View Post
    Bottom line is that I'm trying to come up with some other reason beyond "Because Blizzard is stupid."
    There's no need. It's actually simpler with the band-aid answer that Blizz gives in HotS and that Kerrigan's deinfestation through the Keystone is the only thing that can awaken Amon. Given the "realignment" (I would call it a retcon but you'd probably take it as a perjorative even though I use and intend it as a neutral term) of her power status somewhere between the end of BW, the EU and the start of Sc2 as being god-like/as powerful as the Overmind if not moreso (which I never was convinced of anyway despite her winning in BW, mind you) already, than the answer in Sc2 is consistent with this "realignment".

    And oh yeah, Infested Kerrigan's power being the only thing capable of reviving Amon would've also helped explain why it could only be her that could kill Amon at the end (sharing similar energies and all - much like what the Overmind says about the reason why Dark Templar are able to harm it back in Sc1).
    Last edited by Turalyon; 01-15-2017 at 01:05 AM.
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