SC3 Plot Ideas

[GnaReffotsirk]

@ Turalyon

Here's my problem in specific. Kerrigan was supposedly evil for killing civilians, but I have only seen her do this in WoL. In BW, she manipulated leaders to fight a common enemy, and killed them off as they pose a threat to her power, rule, or hold, but I've never seen her do things like Stukov did in SC2.

Stukov brought hordes of zombified civilians into battle, which we could blame on Kerrigan when she attacked and infected worlds in WoL. But there was never any point in BW that I saw her intentionally attack civilians for the sake of it. There could have been civilian casualties, but I've never seen her attack a civilian population in BW like she did in WoL.

Or did I miss something?

Say we only consider intentional assaults on civilian worlds, without cause or reason, has she ever done this? Ignoring civilian casualties that might have been caught in the way, during military operations.

I ask, because it seems to me, after reviewing BW through mass recall, Kerrigan was:

1. Motivated by lack of control, or being deprived thereof, being a pawn;
2. Goal: Personal security, liberation through domination, and elimination

She could have gone far by killing fenix and Duke, but she killed them for one reason: they, like the UED, are a threat. She didn't kill Raynor, nor Mengsk. At the very beginning, it appears, that Kerrigan expects them to attack her once the UED is disposed of.

Mengsk, as she knew him, would side with anyone to preserve his power. So keeping him in check would ensure her an 'unlikely ally'. Raynor, would do anything to help out if any appears to come along, and he doesn't really pose any threat, rather some value in some way. (I haven't really delved into Raynor's role in BW).

My point is, her acts of aggression was never really directed at civilian populations, but military positions. On moria, that planet was heavily militarized. And as Fenix pointed out, he doesn't like "raids" but rather full battle. So it was more of a raid, but gameplay demanded and allowed for something else.

Or, have I missed a huge chunk of information regarding this issue?

[ragnarok]

I'm down for a reboot of SC1. SC2 can't be made un-canon, and the original story has potential to be far more rich.

But then they'd get attacked for lack of originality and "repeating the same storylines".

You can settle for the Mass Recall of that, Gradius.

[ragnarok]

@ Turalyon

Here's my problem in specific. Kerrigan was supposedly evil for killing civilians, but I have only seen her do this in WoL. In BW, she manipulated leaders to fight a common enemy, and killed them off as they pose a threat to her power, rule, or hold, but I've never seen her do things like Stukov did in SC2.

Stukov brought hordes of zombified civilians into battle, which we could blame on Kerrigan when she attacked and infected worlds in WoL. But there was never any point in BW that I saw her intentionally attack civilians for the sake of it. There could have been civilian casualties, but I've never seen her attack a civilian population in BW like she did in WoL.

Or did I miss something?

You have to remember the following, Gna:

If you went to Char first, then Kaldir, or Kaldir first and then Char (as long as Zerus comes 3rd), there's a convo between her and Izsha:

Izsha would tell Kerrigan that she's unable to sense Zeratul, Kerrigan explained that he was gone for now, and wasn't considered a threat. Izsha then commented that anything non-zerg is considered a threat.

Now, Izsha was created by Kerrigan prior to her deinfestation in SC2, as were all the broodmothers, so they were all based off her template on the original QoB. If you recall later in the game, she had ordered broodmothers to attack Dominion industrial worlds. Kerrigan did NOT mention anything about sparing civilians, so therefore the broodmothers would have interpreted this order as "Wreck the planet, kill everyone on it."

Oh I'm sure some would have escaped (like what happened in the Tarsonis invasion in SC1), but plenty would have been killed. Therefore, if nothing else, this is considered criminal negligence if Kerrigan didn't realize civilians would be killed. And this is why it's only upon the reunion with Raynor on the Moros that she finally tried to distance herself from those actions.

That being said, the reason I don't buy Gradius's argument in the past (when he pointed out back when she was under the SoK she had specifically said no one deserved to have the zerg unleashed upon them) is that there's no possible way she could have come out of the infestation years exactly the same.

That'd be like you living through years of urban warfare in your own city with enemy troops bombing, shelling, and then later rape for several years on a DAILY basis, and then pick up right where you left off prior to the war when all this has passed. It's just not going to happen. Any war history book can tell you that for people who experienced warfare, those events take MANY years to fade (and sometimes never fade).

Now, for the whole directing at civilian populations but military positions like what you just said on Moria, you can't expect there'd be NO civilians being caught in the crossfire. Sure you can try to keep it minimal, but still. As there have been those who argued that SC warfare is just like WWII in space, this is why I try to point out to the bombing campaigns in Germany by the western allies (which most history books now admit it certainly went on WAY longer than it had to). You can't exactly expect the allies after the war to be so naive and just say "We didn't know there were civilians in the cities we bombed." So it's no different here, just on a bigger scale.

[Turalyon]

For those just wanting the TLDR version: some things/acts may be justified but are not always concurrently morally justified.

Here's my problem in specific. Kerrigan was supposedly evil for killing civilians, but I have only seen her do this in WoL.

But there was never any point in BW that I saw her intentionally attack civilians for the sake of it. There could have been civilian casualties, but I've never seen her attack a civilian population in BW like she did in WoL.

There could have been civilian casualties, but I've never seen her attack a civilian population in BW like she did in WoL.

Or did I miss something?

You don't count the attack on Moria (Mission 3 The Kel-Morian Combine of The Queen of Blades campaign in BW) as being morally reprehensible? Sure, she maybe covering it up as as a "resource raid" but she also asks the Captain to infest some Terran Command Centres...

That sure looks kinda "evil" to me. And if that wasn't enough, think of what this makes Raynor out to be when he is happy to just going along with it all and being jovial with Fenix about it...

Say we only consider intentional assaults on civilian worlds, without cause or reason, has she ever done this?

You're asking for something that is technically impossible. How can something be "intentional" and yet "without cause or reason"?

All acts that are deemed "evil" have intent, cause or reason at some level. It's just that intent, cause or reason is considered wrong in some way. Besides, even if the intent is right, the act needs some consideration since there could be other alternative ways to act rather than, say, through excessive bloodshed.

I remember having a good conversation with FanaticTemplar a long time ago about assessing the morality of the Overmind's actions and how it can justifiably be considered evil to some degree by others even though it may actually be (or appear to be) amoral.

She could have gone far by killing fenix and Duke, but she killed them for one reason: they, like the UED, are a threat. She didn't kill Raynor, nor Mengsk. At the very beginning, it appears, that Kerrigan expects them to attack her once the UED is disposed of.

They are not an immediate threat and she is in a position of power over her "allies". She doesn't really need to kill them but she feels justified in doing so. That's not the same thing as saying it's the right thing to do.

My point is, her acts of aggression was never really directed at civilian populations, but military positions. On moria, that planet was heavily militarized. And as Fenix pointed out, he doesn't like "raids" but rather full battle. So it was more of a raid, but gameplay demanded and allowed for something else.

There is a case of this being considered a war-crime. She is attacking and involving a third party that is not even remotely relevant or part of the opposition she has decided to direct hostilities at. One can't just generalise and say that being part of the military excludes them from moral considerations since that sets a dangerous precedent in that all hostile actions against them can be deemed as morally justified.

[ragnarok]

They are not an immediate threat and she is in a position of power over her "allies". She doesn't really need to kill them but she feels justified in doing so. That's not the same thing as saying it's the right thing to do.

And yet she did say that Raynor and Fenix were very resourceful. This was said again in WoL when Raynor beat her to the artifact at Monlyth.

[Gradius]

There is a case of this being considered a war-crime. She is attacking and involving a third party that is not even remotely relevant or part of the opposition she has decided to direct hostilities at. One can't just generalise and say that being part of the military excludes them from moral considerations since that sets a dangerous precedent in that all hostile actions against them can be deemed as morally justified.

Moria isn't a third party. Raynor/Kerrigan/Fenix are at war with the UED. Moria is part of the UED and sold out to them, as Fenix mentions in the mission.

But yeah, infesting other humans is sort of war-crime territory, even though it still served a purpose in the war.

[Nolanstar]

Remember, that from a tactical standpoint infesting removes a soldier from the enemy, and gives you a roughly equal or better soldier. From a tactical point okay, but on civilians who won't attack it is not acceptable by most ethically.

[ragnarok]

Moria isn't a third party. Raynor/Kerrigan/Fenix are at war with the UED. Moria is part of the UED and sold out to them, as Fenix mentions in the mission.

But yeah, infesting other humans is sort of war-crime territory, even though it still served a purpose in the war.

You can call it a war crime all you want Gradius. If you can't get over the fact that she could not have come out of the whole infestation years the same person (or go back to being that person within a few days or something).....

[Turalyon]

Moria isn't a third party. Raynor/Kerrigan/Fenix are at war with the UED. Moria is part of the UED and sold out to them, as Fenix mentions in the mission.

Looking over the transcript in BW, I can't find anything about Fenix mentioning that Moria sold out or is part of the UED. All I can find where Fenix even mentions both is this line:

"It is strange that this Kel-Morian Combine continues to operate whilst the UED grips the Dominion with an iron fist".

That he finds it strange they are still operating whilst all this stuff is going one could just as well mean that the KMC are autonomous and being left alone to pursue their own agendas than it does that they are in cahoots with the UED. No-one in the game even mentions that KMC is in cahoots with the UED or the Dominion at all really.

Remember, that from a tactical standpoint infesting removes a soldier from the enemy, and gives you a roughly equal or better soldier. From a tactical point okay, but on civilians who won't attack it is not acceptable by most ethically.

This. Since Gna was asking about the morality of Kerrigans acts before BW being potentially sound, this act in BW is particularly heinous from a moral/ethical viewpoint.

Given that the KMC were not really involved in the conflict until Kerrigan made it her business to involve them at that particular time (she's the attacker) and that she essentially enslaved and robbed people of their free will solely for her own profit, I'm sure that the morality of that action would be considered evil to some degree.

[ragnarok]

This. Since Gna was asking about the morality of Kerrigans acts before BW being potentially sound, this act in BW is particularly heinous from a moral/ethical viewpoint.

Given that the KMC were not really involved in the conflict until Kerrigan made it her business to involve them at that particular time (she's the attacker) and that she essentially enslaved and robbed people of their free will solely for her own profit, I'm sure that the morality of that action would be considered evil to some degree.

You can argue that, but you have to remember that she had a point about the UED. If they won, the KMC too would have been enslaved. In that regard (had the alliance actually been a legit one), you could also say that this would have been a small sacrifice for the greater good.