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Thread: Could the Hybrid Production Have Been Around Way Longer Than We All Thought

  1. #11
    Sheliek's Avatar Member
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    Default Re: Could the Hybrid Production Have Been Around Way Longer Than We All Thought

    It's fun there if you like that kind of humour. Anyway, back on topic, reading OP now.

  2. #12

    Default Re: Could the Hybrid Production Have Been Around Way Longer Than We All Thought

    Anyways Gradius, with your comment about the Tal'darim and why Amon didn't just use that, here's another possibility:

    First off, remember I'm using the SC2 lore to try to get some sense of the SC1 lore, so do not just say that because the SC2 lore is so shitty, it doesn't count as anything. Not all of us believe that.

    Now, recall the regular Xel'Naga confronted Amon at Zerus. By then, his work on the Zerg wasn't finished yet. Therefore, for all we know, at that point in time, Amon didn't even know if Zerg and Protoss DNA could be combined to create the hybrid at all. On the Protoss aspect he probably felt it worked because despite the Firstborn growing beyond their control, Amon still considered them a success to his plans. The Zerg are harder to say because the work was incomplete. Now yes, the SC1 manual did say the Xel'Naga felt the Zerg species' performance meant they accomplished their goal, but now that SC2 has stated this whole time was actually just Amon and his followers, it could mean something entirely different.

    Therefore, it's possible that Amon didn't know if Zerg DNA would work with Protoss DNA for hybridization. Given that his work on the Zerg wasn't finished, it seems highly unlikely that any hybrids could have existed before the regular Xel'Naga confronted him at Zerus. If that's true, then the very first hybrid would have been created by Duran (following Amon's orders) sometime during the 3000 years after he was banished into the Void, but before the events of SC1.

    Furthermore, I don't think Ma'lash ever told the Tal'darim any specific details on just how they'd ascend to become hybrid. However fanatical, the Tal'darim aren't completely stupid. Surely even those who had never once encountered the Zerg would have seen the hybrids had elements of a non-Protoss race to them. For those who believed Ma'lash, perhaps they could have felt Amon would eventually choose them to merge with an alien race to become the hybrid or something like that. Now yes, this would go in Amon's favor, but it's possible that at that point in time, he didn't want to lose the Tal'darim's loyalty.

    Remember, we know the regular Xel'Naga banished Amon back into the Void. But it wasn't explained if he had still seen every possible event that was happening while he was in there. If the answer is no, perhaps for the next 3000 years, Amon never knew that Khas rediscovered the Khala which would allow him to bend the Protoss to his will, and he only found out about this only after being released from the Void.

  3. #13
    Gradius's Avatar SC:L Addict
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    Default Re: Could the Hybrid Production Have Been Around Way Longer Than We All Thought

    Quote Originally Posted by ragnarok View Post
    For point 4, this is exactly what I'm getting at: if the Overmind at that time was not fully developed, perhaps it was only meant to respond to Amon's orders. It'd listen to no one else, not even Duran
    That has nothing to do with what I said. It doesn't have to listen to Duran to make use of Aiur's location, which Duran can give freely.

    For point 5, it's harder to tell because we don't know enough about the Void. And therefore, we don't really know WHAT kind of a prison the Xel'Naga put him in. As for him being one with the Void, that's BS by Ouros because if that's true, the only way to kill him would be to destroy the whole of the Void dimension, which I doubt happened at the end of the epilogue.
    Refresh my memory. I thought Ouros was the imprisoned one. Where does it say Amon was imprisoned? I thought he was just banished to the Void.

    Point 7 this is why I said NON-assimilation method. It doesn't have to be via the terrans, just not the original way.
    Ok, but it's not going to be Terran tech since they haven't been around. Way easier for him to just use the Tal'Darim.

    For point 8, the Tal'darim are easy, but from what I got out of LotV, it appears that most of the Tal'darim didn't know much about the Zerg. This was shown in the convo between Vorazun and Alarak at the beginning of "Templar's Return."
    Which is a plothole in SC2's lore. The Tal'Darim came with Amon, and he should have made use of them to hybridize them with zerg instead of waiting thousands of years. That was his goal in creating the Overmind after all.

    Back to point 3, once again Gradius, you don't seem to see that Amon didn't think the regular Xel'Naga would confront him at Zerus. It's possible his plan was to finish binding the Zerg to the Overmind, and THEN tell the Overmind about Aiur. But the regular Xel'Naga confronted and defeated him there before that could happen.
    Incorrect. He used the Overmind to defeat the Xel'Naga. Sure, he got killed, but he had enough time to order the Overmind to look for Aiur. So why the heck didn't he just give the Overmind the location? He's already told the Overmind about Aiur.

    I get what you mean from point 2, which makes me wonder if these energies could only be collected by hybrids or something. If so, it'd mean that the hybrid army (made by terran tech) still wasn't ready by the time of 2500. It'd also mean that the 1st hybrid we saw in "Dark Origins" could have just been a new production method by Duran. In other words, maybe he did try to use terran tech to build hybrids, but in Dark Origins he used a different way to do it as the previous versions are only meant to be as soldiers, not energy collectors.
    So his plan never included reviving Amon?

    Quote Originally Posted by ragnarok View Post
    Anyways Gradius, with your comment about the Tal'darim and why Amon didn't just use that, here's another possibility:

    First off, remember I'm using the SC2 lore to try to get some sense of the SC1 lore, so do not just say that because the SC2 lore is so shitty, it doesn't count as anything. Not all of us believe that.

    Now, recall the regular Xel'Naga confronted Amon at Zerus. By then, his work on the Zerg wasn't finished yet. Therefore, for all we know, at that point in time, Amon didn't even know if Zerg and Protoss DNA could be combined to create the hybrid at all. On the Protoss aspect he probably felt it worked because despite the Firstborn growing beyond their control, Amon still considered them a success to his plans. The Zerg are harder to say because the work was incomplete. Now yes, the SC1 manual did say the Xel'Naga felt the Zerg species' performance meant they accomplished their goal, but now that SC2 has stated this whole time was actually just Amon and his followers, it could mean something entirely different.

    Therefore, it's possible that Amon didn't know if Zerg DNA would work with Protoss DNA for hybridization. Given that his work on the Zerg wasn't finished, it seems highly unlikely that any hybrids could have existed before the regular Xel'Naga confronted him at Zerus. If that's true, then the very first hybrid would have been created by Duran (following Amon's orders) sometime during the 3000 years after he was banished into the Void, but before the events of SC1.
    If, going by SC2 lore, he didn't believe hybrids could even be made at that point, why did he order the Overmind to destroy/assimilate the protoss? What was the point?

    Furthermore, I don't think Ma'lash ever told the Tal'darim any specific details on just how they'd ascend to become hybrid. However fanatical, the Tal'darim aren't completely stupid. Surely even those who had never once encountered the Zerg would have seen the hybrids had elements of a non-Protoss race to them. For those who believed Ma'lash, perhaps they could have felt Amon would eventually choose them to merge with an alien race to become the hybrid or something like that. Now yes, this would go in Amon's favor, but it's possible that at that point in time, he didn't want to lose the Tal'darim's loyalty.
    Meh. He's a god. He can kidnap people and turn them into zerg just like Ulrezaj did to his Tal'Darim.

  4. #14

    Default Re: Could the Hybrid Production Have Been Around Way Longer Than We All Thought

    I'm wondering when and how Amon died. Maybe it was a suicide so he could be in the Void, waiting for when the other Xel'naga were killed by the Overmind and sent to the Void in turn. It would be an ambush, with him and his followers massacring the other Xel'Naga in the Void, except for Ouros.

    Maybe he absorbed the essence of all the Xel'Naga he killed, explaining his level of power over the Void.
    Last edited by Visions of Khas; 03-24-2016 at 07:47 PM.
    Aaand sold.


    Be it through hallowed grounds or lands of sorrow
    The Forger's wake is bereft and fallow

    Is the residuum worth the cost of destruction and maiming;
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    But be wary through what thickets it winds.

  5. #15

    Default Re: Could the Hybrid Production Have Been Around Way Longer Than We All Thought

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    Refresh my memory. I thought Ouros was the imprisoned one. Where does it say Amon was imprisoned? I thought he was just banished to the Void.
    Recall the part where Artanis was talking to Karax about the keystone and how it was tampered with by Duran. Karax specifically said the stored energy was used to release Amon from the void. The word "release" seemed to imply he had been imprisoned there.

    After all, recall was Kerrigan said at the beginning of the epilogue mission: that Amon planned to return. Therefore, if he was merely BANISHED into the Void, it'd mean nothing, because then Amon could just return whenever he felt like it, without any need for outside help.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    That has nothing to do with what I said. It doesn't have to listen to Duran to make use of Aiur's location, which Duran can give freely.
    Unless at that point in time, Amon hadn't yet designed to Overmind to respond to anyone other than him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    Ok, but it's not going to be Terran tech since they haven't been around. Way easier for him to just use the Tal'Darim.
    Correct, unless at that point Amon didn't want to lose his Protoss allies. As I said, it's possible that by the time the other Xel'Naga confronted him at Zerus, Amon didn't know that Khas had rediscovered the Khala link. Recall what Alarak said: Amon knows the Tal'darim have no Khala for him to control.

    Therefore, if by the time Khas rediscovered the Khala and Amon just never knew about it, he would think the only Protoss he has on his side is the Tal'darim, and therefore it's better to play it safe and keep them on his side.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    Which is a plothole in SC2's lore. The Tal'Darim came with Amon, and he should have made use of them to hybridize them with zerg instead of waiting thousands of years. That was his goal in creating the Overmind after all.
    And I'm saying it's possible that even by the time he reached Zerus, Amon didn't know the Zerg could be used with the Protoss to create hybrids. That would then explain why he waited so long. For all we know, by the time the other Xel'Naga confronted him, Amon STILL didn't know if their DNAs could be successfully combined.

    That's why Blizzard was stupid to say the hybrids are Amon's creations. They should be considered Duran's creations because he was the one who finally discovered it was possible to combine Zerg and Protoss DNA to make the hybrids.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    Incorrect. He used the Overmind to defeat the Xel'Naga. Sure, he got killed, but he had enough time to order the Overmind to look for Aiur. So why the heck didn't he just give the Overmind the location? He's already told the Overmind about Aiur.
    Here's my theory:

    It's possible that when the other Xel'Naga confronted him, they got the upper hand very early in the battle. In other words, it could be like the MOMENT Amon unleashed the swarm, the other Xel'Naga succeeded in banishing him back into the Void. As a result, the Overmind was left with no orders other than to kill the Xel'Naga and the rest of the Protoss.

    Remember, we don't have any details on exactly WHEN Amon was defeated there....

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    So his plan never included reviving Amon?
    More like Duran overestimated how much essence Ouros had left, and perhaps until the few years right before SC1 happened, he thought Amon could stay alive for much longer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    If, going by SC2 lore, he didn't believe hybrids could even be made at that point, why did he order the Overmind to destroy/assimilate the protoss? What was the point?
    It's like this: by the time Amon was defeated at Zerus, he only knew Zerg and Protoss DNA could be combined in theory. He didn't know if this would hold true in practice. Therefore, he gave the order to the Overmind to kill and assimilate the Protoss to test the theory out. This would then be consistent with what Zeratul was telling Tassadar in SC1 Protoss mission 9, that the Overmind had come to Aiur to finish the experiments the Xel'Naga began so long ago. I'm sure you see where this is going...

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    Meh. He's a god. He can kidnap people and turn them into zerg just like Ulrezaj did to his Tal'Darim.
    Saying he's a god means squat. Loki said similarly to the Hulk in the 2012 Avengers film and look where that got him

    And on that part I'm still hoping to see Ulrezaj again, since we don't know who Ulrezaj's boss is.

  6. #16

    Default Re: Could the Hybrid Production Have Been Around Way Longer Than We All Thought

    Quote Originally Posted by Visions of Khas View Post
    I'm wondering when and how Amon died. Maybe it was a suicide so he could be in the Void, waiting for when the other Xel'naga were killed by the Overmind and sent to the Void in turn. It would be an ambush, with him and his followers massacring the other Xel'Naga in the Void, except for Ouros.

    Maybe he absorbed the essence of all the Xel'Naga he killed, explaining his level of power over the Void.
    That's hard to say. We don't know how he corrupted parts of the Void and everything. I'm also curious just why he could only be killed by another Xel'Naga. It's pretty much like Revenge of the Fallen, where Jetfire was saying that only a Prime could kill the Fallen.

    I don't think it was about suicide. If the other Xel'Naga hadn't confronted him at Zerus, he would have gotten all he needed. And he wouldn't willingly suicide, with the swarm he would have led them to complete his plans in the proper way.

  7. #17

    Default Re: Could the Hybrid Production Have Been Around Way Longer Than We All Thought

    Hmm, I can't help but feel ambivalence going through all this. On one hand, I'm impressed at the lengths that Rag has gone to in trying to piece it all together, yet dismayed at how this is all speculation based on the flimsiest of pretenses.

    For example, it's never really stipulated why Amon needs to substantiate and there's nothing in Sc2 to even give us any ideas. This hearkens back to long ago discussions regarding why the Sc1 Overmind made itself manifest on Char, but at least those theories had stonger bases than Amon's. Rag's idea that Amon was actually dying from his continued imprisonment in the Void (if one can even call it that) is fine if it were even hinted at, but there is nothing in Sc2 that even remotely suggests this, making the idea and the extrapolation that follows wholly baseless speculation. Makes you wonder when something as crucial as this bit of information is omitted, whether it was done purposefully or thoughtlessly. Either option is not good anyway since they both damn the writers.

    If they purposefully didn't tell us why, how could they expect everyone (let alone making them feel motivated to do so given how bland Amon is) to piece the convolutions together like Rag did? Given how complex Rag's solution is, I can't imagine the true reason being as complex because that means they purposefully left heaps of stuff out in the installment that was supposed to spill all the beans. That and the possibility the writers didn't trust the audience to buy into such a complex explanation (too late for that now) or themselves in writing it out. Makes you wonder why they bothered to have Amon at all given that everything is still so obscure we have to fanon the whole lot.
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  8. #18

    Default Re: Could the Hybrid Production Have Been Around Way Longer Than We All Thought

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    For example, it's never really stipulated why Amon needs to substantiate and there's nothing in Sc2 to even give us any ideas. This hearkens back to long ago discussions regarding why the Sc1 Overmind made itself manifest on Char, but at least those theories had stonger bases than Amon's. Rag's idea that Amon was actually dying from his continued imprisonment in the Void (if one can even call it that) is fine if it were even hinted at, but there is nothing in Sc2 that even remotely suggests this, making the idea and the extrapolation that follows wholly baseless speculation. Makes you wonder when something as crucial as this bit of information is omitted, whether it was done purposefully or thoughtlessly. Either option is not good anyway since they both damn the writers.
    That's why I said it's only a theory. Because of Amon was NOT dying in the void prison, Duran never would have needed to do what he did. All he would have needed was a few more years of patience and everything. After all, the Xel'Naga can live billions of years, if not more. A few more centuries wouldn't really be that much of a wait.

    As for why they chose not to discuss this, that's obvious: Blizzard didn't think fans would see the lore problems and everything and therefore thought the fans can't be smart enough to raise such a Q.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    If they purposefully didn't tell us why, how could they expect everyone (let alone making them feel motivated to do so given how bland Amon is) to piece the convolutions together like Rag did? Given how complex Rag's solution is, I can't imagine the true reason being as complex because that means they purposefully left heaps of stuff out in the installment that was supposed to spill all the beans. That and the possibility the writers didn't trust the audience to buy into such a complex explanation (too late for that now) or themselves in writing it out. Makes you wonder why they bothered to have Amon at all given that everything is still so obscure we have to fanon the whole lot.
    All I'm trying to come up with is a solution other than just "Because Blizzard is stupid." We've already known that for some years, along with the fact they were probably too lazy to try to write things out because they thought the whole SC community was only about the multiplayer and therefore don't give a damn about the storyline.

  9. #19

    Default Re: Could the Hybrid Production Have Been Around Way Longer Than We All Thought

    Quote Originally Posted by ragnarok View Post
    That's why I said it's only a theory. Because of Amon was NOT dying in the void prison, Duran never would have needed to do what he did.
    This reasoning here has some "cart before the horse" logic running though it. If we are not told Amon is dying, than the first order presumption is that he's not dying. It follows then that Duran doing all this stuff now throughout SC does not necessarily suggest that Amon was actually dying from way before. I could easily make up any other reason really, the simplest of which is that Amon just wanted to be physically present to witness and/or partake in the destruction of the Protoss, so Duran did what he could to make that happen. You're using retroactive continuity to support your theory much in the same way that Blizz has been using it to justify Amon's existence/relevance.

    Quote Originally Posted by ragnarok View Post
    All I'm trying to come up with is a solution other than just "Because Blizzard is stupid."
    Commendable as this is, it's either fanon at best or, at worse, you're highlighting one more way how Blizz failed at writing Sc2.
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  10. #20

    Default Re: Could the Hybrid Production Have Been Around Way Longer Than We All Thought

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    It's pretty much a refuge from all the trolls/morons on battle.net. I can't really handle that place anymore.
    That place led to the death of my account, there.

    All I said was DDAY was badass or something and got banned (because poor kids might see curse words)

    We're all better off, That entire website is cancer anyways.

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