Could the Hybrid Production Have Been Around Way Longer Than We All Thought

[ragnarok]

Commendable as this is, it's either fanon at best or, at worse, you're highlighting one more way how Blizz failed at writing Sc2.

It's better than most people on battlenet who are saying Blizzard failed almost EVERYTHING in SC2....

[Gradius]

Recall the part where Artanis was talking to Karax about the keystone and how it was tampered with by Duran. Karax specifically said the stored energy was used to release Amon from the void. The word "release" seemed to imply he had been imprisoned there.

That's incorrect. He says:

"The Keystone shows clear evidence of tampering. Likely by this Narud creature mentioned in the terran engineer Swann's report. It was adapted to drain the Void energies within Kerrigan and store them until they could be redistributed to revive Amon. The foundation is there... but it was never intended to house the full energies of a xel'naga."

The word is "revive", not "release". It's never been used to trap a Xel'Naga before, but the "foundation" is there. This seems like the first time the artifact is being used in this way. Besides, if he's trapped in there, then he's obviously not in the void.

After all, recall was Kerrigan said at the beginning of the epilogue mission: that Amon planned to return. Therefore, if he was merely BANISHED into the Void, it'd mean nothing, because then Amon could just return whenever he felt like it, without any need for outside help.

I mean that's basically what happened. Rohana says "In the final confrontation, Amon was felled, but he was not defeated. He returned to the Void, twisting it with his hatred.""

Even Kerrigan says "Amon lives. His Hatred festers in the Void, and he already plans to return."

Being banished to the void isn't really a big deal. It just takes a while to return.

Unless at that point in time, Amon hadn't yet designed to Overmind to respond to anyone other than him.

You're not really addressing my core argument...

Correct, unless at that point Amon didn't want to lose his Protoss allies. As I said, it's possible that by the time the other Xel'Naga confronted him at Zerus, Amon didn't know that Khas had rediscovered the Khala link. Recall what Alarak said: Amon knows the Tal'darim have no Khala for him to control.

Therefore, if by the time Khas rediscovered the Khala and Amon just never knew about it, he would think the only Protoss he has on his side is the Tal'darim, and therefore it's better to play it safe and keep them on his side.

That makes no sense. Why would he care about any of that? He has everything he needs right there to make hybrids. Hybrids are better than Tal'Darim.

And I'm saying it's possible that even by the time he reached Zerus, Amon didn't know the Zerg could be used with the Protoss to create hybrids. That would then explain why he waited so long. For all we know, by the time the other Xel'Naga confronted him, Amon STILL didn't know if their DNAs could be successfully combined.

That's why Blizzard was stupid to say the hybrids are Amon's creations. They should be considered Duran's creations because he was the one who finally discovered it was possible to combine Zerg and Protoss DNA to make the hybrids.

And I'm saying the facts totally contradict your hypothesis. Duran flat out tells you that's the whole point of the zerg:

"Narud: The Swarm had one purpose: to assimilate the protoss and create the hybrid. Now, you're are no longer needed."

And if Amon didn't know they could be hybridized at the time, he wouldn't have ordered the Overmind to attack/assimilate the protoss.

It's possible that when the other Xel'Naga confronted him, they got the upper hand very early in the battle. In other words, it could be like the MOMENT Amon unleashed the swarm, the other Xel'Naga succeeded in banishing him back into the Void.

As a result, the Overmind was left with no orders other than to kill the Xel'Naga and the rest of the Protoss.

Remember, we don't have any details on exactly WHEN Amon was defeated there....

That would be incorrect since Amon killed them all at Zerus. It's only on Ulnar that the Xel'Naga made their final stand, and Amon was defeated.

More like Duran overestimated how much essence Ouros had left, and perhaps until the few years right before SC1 happened, he thought Amon could stay alive for much longer.

Ok, well we know for a fact that Narud planned to revive Amon after he died.

It's like this: by the time Amon was defeated at Zerus, he only knew Zerg and Protoss DNA could be combined in theory. He didn't know if this would hold true in practice. Therefore, he gave the order to the Overmind to kill and assimilate the Protoss to test the theory out. This would then be consistent with what Zeratul was telling Tassadar in SC1 Protoss mission 9, that the Overmind had come to Aiur to finish the experiments the Xel'Naga began so long ago. I'm sure you see where this is going...

You were originally trying to explain why he didn't use Tal'Darim instead. If he thought that zerg and protoss DNA could be combined in theory, he'd be doing that with Tal'Darim and the zerg he had at his disposal instead of going through the trouble of making an Overmind and ordering them to attack the protoss that live halfway across the galaxy.

Saying he's a god means squat. Loki said similarly to the Hulk in the 2012 Avengers film and look where that got him

Non-sequitur. Hulk is stronger than Loki. A regular Tal'Darim is not stronger than Amon, who could literally rip worlds apart, and therefore Amon could do whatever he wanted with them individually.

And on that part I'm still hoping to see Ulrezaj again, since we don't know who Ulrezaj's boss is.

I think it's obviously meant to be Amon or at least Narud. Ulrezaj was making hybrids. :P

[Visions of Khas]

I think it's obviously meant to be Amon or at least Narud. Ulrezaj was making hybrids. :P

According to the wiki, "It has been confirmed that Ulrezaj's master was not Amon," according to a Blizzcon lore discussion in 2015. To quote from the panel: "Ulrezaj was leading them [Tal'darim] to different ends than what Amon dictated... No, he [Ulrezaj] was a separatist who kinda had his own agenda there in the dark templar books."

Also, Valerie Watrous is fucking adorable.

While I think Narud was Ulrezaj's boss, it's interesting to note that Valerie mentioned that Narud has some nefarious, unexplored reasons for the different Tal'darim factions opposing each other and Raynor's Raiders in WoL. I'm assuming this is in addition to Executor's Nyon's terrazine-induced madness.

[ragnarok]

That's incorrect. He says:

"The Keystone shows clear evidence of tampering. Likely by this Narud creature mentioned in the terran engineer Swann's report. It was adapted to drain the Void energies within Kerrigan and store them until they could be redistributed to revive Amon. The foundation is there... but it was never intended to house the full energies of a xel'naga."

The word is "revive", not "release". It's never been used to trap a Xel'Naga before, but the "foundation" is there. This seems like the first time the artifact is being used in this way. Besides, if he's trapped in there, then he's obviously not in the void.

My bad. In that case, use the convo Artanis had with Karax after "Harbinger of Oblivion." After the last Ulnar mission, he spoke to Karax, and Karax said it's still possible for the Keystone to be their salvation. When Artanis asked how it cleansed Kerrigan, Karax said the following:

"It extracted the essence that forged her into the Queen of Blades. Then it used that energy to release Amon from the Void.

Since "released" was used here, it implies that Amon was stuck in the Void with no way to get out without outside help in some way.

I mean that's basically what happened. Rohana says "In the final confrontation, Amon was felled, but he was not defeated. He returned to the Void, twisting it with his hatred.""

Even Kerrigan says "Amon lives. His Hatred festers in the Void, and he already plans to return."

Being banished to the void isn't really a big deal. It just takes a while to return.

You don't know that. Granted Kerrigan didn't exactly say when Amon would return, but she said he would return unless they go into the Void and finish this. However if Amon could return any time he wanted, then it'd make keeping Ouros alive pointless, and the same would hold true for why Duran didn't kill Kerrigan.

If we go by your theory, all Amon really had to do was wait a few extra centuries and he'd be back.

That makes no sense. Why would he care about any of that? He has everything he needs right there to make hybrids. Hybrids are better than Tal'Darim.

True, but did he know how powerful the hybrids really are? We don't know when the very first hybrid was made. And until that time came, all Amon and Duran had were theories on their strength. Again, it's possible by the time Amon was sent back into the Void, Duran didn't even know of Zerg and Protoss DNA could be combined to make the hybrids.

And I'm saying the facts totally contradict your hypothesis. Duran flat out tells you that's the whole point of the zerg:

"Narud: The Swarm had one purpose: to assimilate the protoss and create the hybrid. Now, you're are no longer needed."

And if Amon didn't know they could be hybridized at the time, he wouldn't have ordered the Overmind to attack/assimilate the protoss.

The Zerg race was genetically meant to keep consuming species. But my point remains: despite all the work Amon did on them and the Protoss, he still didn't know if the assimilation would work out or not. He ordered the Zerg to attack the Protoss like that to test his theory out. It's entirely possible that right before he was banished into the Void, Amon only thought this'd work in theory. However, his mentality was that if the Zerg assimilated the Protoss and hybrid could NOT be created this way, then he'd merely had to find another species for the Zerg to absorb.

That would be incorrect since Amon killed them all at Zerus. It's only on Ulnar that the Xel'Naga made their final stand, and Amon was defeated.

You don't know that. Rohana said that after Amon unleashed the swarm, the Zerg killed the Xel'Naga. Only a fraction remained within Ulnar. Then, she said in the final confrontation, Amon was defeated and forced back into the Void. However, these two sentences are not related. It wasn't exactly said WHERE and WHEN Amon was finally defeated, though the prologue seemed to imply Amon was defeated at Atrias.

Which naturally is another blunder on Blizzard's part because now it's even more confusing as to just what led to Amon's defeat in the first place.

Ok, well we know for a fact that Narud planned to revive Amon after he died.

Correct, I think I may just write another thread and this and tell you my theory on why the Tal'darim was never used.

You were originally trying to explain why he didn't use Tal'Darim instead. If he thought that zerg and protoss DNA could be combined in theory, he'd be doing that with Tal'Darim and the zerg he had at his disposal instead of going through the trouble of making an Overmind and ordering them to attack the protoss that live halfway across the galaxy.

I understand your point my friend, but my point still remains on the Void imprisonment theory. The way I see it, Amon's goal to create hybrids takes a backseat compared to getting himself out of the Void prison. That part has to come first. Likely Duran felt that he was free to make the hybrids all he wanted, but he had to help his master first. Or, at the very least, create the hybrids for the sake to help his master. In other words, the initial purpose of the hybrid was merely to free Amon from the Void, not replace all races in the universe as the "master race."

Non-sequitur. Hulk is stronger than Loki. A regular Tal'Darim is not stronger than Amon, who could literally rip worlds apart, and therefore Amon could do whatever he wanted with them individually.

I'm not going to argue with you on the marvel part since I'm no comic fan. But as for would Amon be able to do whatever he wanted with the Tal'darim, again this goes back to the Void prison theory. I think I may have to write another thread on this for you and I to discuss on.

[Gradius]

Rag, the Xel'Naga came from the void; it makes no sense for it to be their prison. I'm not saying coming back is a piece of cake, but the Xel'Naga came into the material universe from the outside without anyone's help, and even if it's an extremely slow process, Amon can still do it. I suspect gathering the energy from Kerrigan was just to speed it up. Ouros says: "He is the one within the Void. It is an extension of his will, binding me as prisoner." So really it's Ouros that is the prisoner, not Amon, who has total mastery over the void and is "one" with it to the point that he killed all other Xel'Naga. I think you have the whole thing backwards.

I admire the thought and effort put into this but unfortunately I don't really think your hypothesis fits enough facts to even be called a theory. It doesn't really add anything else to our understanding of the game and isn't intuitive/elegant.

[ragnarok]

Rag, the Xel'Naga came from the void; it makes no sense for it to be their prison. I'm not saying coming back is a piece of cake, but the Xel'Naga came into the material universe from the outside without anyone's help, and even if it's an extremely slow process, Amon can still do it. I suspect gathering the energy from Kerrigan was just to speed it up. Ouros says: "He is the one within the Void. It is an extension of his will, binding me as prisoner." So really it's Ouros that is the prisoner, not Amon, who has total mastery over the void and is "one" with it to the point that he killed all other Xel'Naga. I think you have the whole thing backwards.

I admire the thought and effort put into this but unfortunately I don't really think your hypothesis fits enough facts to even be called a theory. It doesn't really add anything else to our understanding of the game and isn't intuitive/elegant.

Because just because they came from the void doesn't mean you can imprison them there. That'd be saying that just because human beings are born on the Earth, there's no way to imprison us on the planet. Besides, we don't know what kind of a prison Amon was put in. For all we know, it could have been a place Ouros and the others specifically designed, and not just a natural place in the Void.

As for what Ouros said of him being one with the Void, that's just him being hypocritical. If that was true Kerrigan's actions achieved nothing by the end because Amon would still be alive.

[Visions of Khas]

Ouros essentially stated Amon's mastery of the Void was strong, not that the two were one and the same. Amon's power probably stems from the essence he absorbed from all the 'Naga he killed.

[KaiserStratosTygo]

It's better than most people on battlenet who are saying Blizzard failed almost EVERYTHING in SC2....

Eh, it's good to give it the ole' college try.

but Blizzard did fail at almost EVERYTHING in SC2....

Theory crafting for the sake of salvaging a lost cause though noble, is ultimately pointless. (unless you're thinking about making a campaign or something, than more power to you)

[ragnarok]

Eh, it's good to give it the ole' college try.

but Blizzard did fail at almost EVERYTHING in SC2....

Theory crafting for the sake of salvaging a lost cause though noble, is ultimately pointless. (unless you're thinking about making a campaign or something, than more power to you)

Sorry Stratos, but you know I cannot accept a total failure (it's also the reason why I won't let go of the redemption matter).