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Thread: Could the Hybrid Production Have Been Around Way Longer Than We All Thought

  1. #1

    Default Could the Hybrid Production Have Been Around Way Longer Than We All Thought

    DarthYam, as we talked over, I will now put my theory on this. Due to the contradiction and retcon problems between SC1 and SC2's lore, I'll try to tie them together as best I can.

    In the beginning, when Amon decided to make a master race via the hybrids, it was for the sake of mixing the Zerg and Protoss together. His uplifting actions on Aiur are proof of this, but as Rohana had pointed out, the Firstborn grew beyond his control. Despite being forced to leave Aiur, Amon still considered his actions with the Protoss a success in the future. By around 500 BC, when Khas rediscovered the Khala link in the Xel'Naga Caverns, thus marking an end to the Aeon of Strife, Amon and his followers were still at Zerus, where they were confronted by the regular Xel'Naga. Despite his work not being finished on the Zerg, he unleashed the swarm to kill them off. Amon himself was defeated however, and forced back into the Void, where he remained for the next 3000 years until the events of SC2 finally set him free again.

    Many had asked: why was Ouros allowed to live? If Amon was going to be "revived" anyway, why didn't Duran just kill Kerrigan to ensure the key to stopping him would be lost?

    My theory on that is the following:

    The regular Xel'Naga knew all along that destroying Amon's physical body would not kill him, but merely force him back into the Void. They knew that being forced back there meant nothing, as Amon could just return to the material universe. Therefore, when Amon was forced back into the Void, they decided to imprison him in a place where the Void energies would slowly kill him. Amon had Ouros captured in the hopes to drain his essence in order to break out of that prison, but Ouros and the regular Xel'Naga already thought of that, and ensured that the prison Amon was put in was a place he couldn't escape merely by draining the essence of other Xel'Naga.

    The result of this was that Amon decided to do the next best thing: draining Ouros's essence as a source of life energy. It won't set him free from the prison, but it would keep him alive. However, Amon and Duran both knew this was only a temporary solution, since Ouros's essence could not last forever. This would be consistent with what he said to Kerrigan in "The Essence of Eternity" mission of "May the last of my essence give you the power you need."

    If so, then it means by the time of SC1, the situation had gotten desperate. Recall back in HotS where Kerrigan and Stukov were discussing about the hybrid. Kerrigan theorized that the hybrid collect psionic energy, and Duran must use that psionic energy to help his master. The war between the Zerg and the Protoss was to do just that, as the psionic energy released from the war would be collected by the hybrids, and eventually Duran would stockpile enough to have what he needs. Both concluded that when Raynor blasted her with the artifact at the end of WoL to deinfest her, Duran used the psionic energy she possessed and transferred it to Amon. This would then be consistent with what Duran was telling Zeratul in "Dark Origins," that Kerrigan's integration to the swarm had sped up his progress.

    In reality however, it wasn't about speeding up the progress at all. Rather, it was a race against the clock. Likely what happened was that after 3000 years of draining Ouros's essence, the amount still left in Ouros was no longer sufficient to keep Amon alive much longer. However, he was still stuck in the prison that the Xel'Naga put him in, with no way to break out without sufficient psionic energy. To make matters worse, the war between the Zerg and the Protoss hasn't been in full swing for very long. Remember, according to the SC1 lore, the swarm set course for the Koprulu Sector in 2439, and although there was some encounters with the Protoss along the way, it was relatively rare between the years 2439 and 2499.

    The dilemma facing Duran, therefore, was simple: the psionic energy he needed to help his master simply wasn't pouring in fast enough. Therefore, Duran must have realized that at such a rate, it would take decades (or even longer) before he would have enough stockpiled psionic energy necessary to free Amon, and by then it'll be too late for his master because Ouros's essence was mostly gone, and the prison Amon was stuck in would kill him. Clearly, in Duran's eyes, a different strategy was needed.

    That would then explain why Duran let Kerrigan live despite the possible threat she could pose: he needed her psionic strength to grow in the years after BW so that once her power was drained, Amon would still be alive, and have what he needed to free himself from the prison.

    But others may argue: if Amon needed the psionic energy to pour in faster, why the hell didn't he just tell the Overmind the location of Aiur? An attack on the Protoss homeworld would certainly have caused plenty of psionic energy to be released, and surely that would have helped him greatly.

    Here's a possible theory: When Amon created the Overmind, he created it so that the Overmind would only respond to his commands. The Overmind would not respond or listen to anyone else, not even his followers, including Duran. Failing that, perhaps he did plan for the Overmind to listen to his followers, but he hadn't gotten to that point yet.

    The bottom line is this: when the regular Xel'Naga confronted him and his followers at Zerus, the Overmind at that point in time had only been designed to obey his orders, and no one else's. Furthermore, at that point in time, because his work on the Zerg wasn't yet finished, Amon hadn't told the Overmind the location of Aiur. As a result, when he was forced back into the Void, the communications link he had with the Overmind got severed, and the Overmind never knew anything more than just a vague idea of where Aiur might be. This would then be consistent with the events of SC1, and why only after Zeratul killed Zasz did the Overmind finally discover the exact location of Aiur.

    The problem facing Duran, however, was that he couldn't have known that. After all, the coming to Char wasn't the Protoss did simply for the hell of it. It was due to Kerrigan's psionic enmanations from within the chrysalis that had drawn Tassadar and Zeratul to Char, as explained in the events of SC1. When they first arrived on the the planet, they didn't even know this was the base of operations for the swarm within the Korpulu Sector. Furthermore, since Khala energies were useless against Cerebrates (as shown in SC1 ep3), 'killing' a Cerebrate in such a way would not have allowed any Protoss mind to touch that with the Overmind's. The bottom line was that had Zeratul not been drawn to Char, Zasz would not have been killed, and the Overmind wouldn't have known the location of Aiur.

    Thus the problem Duran faced by the time of SC1 was the following: how could he have known Kerrigan was even going to get infested in the first place? And therefore, how could he have known about Zeratul being drawn to Char, the killing of Zasz, and the mind touch with the Overmind which would have finally allowed the swarm to locate Aiur?

    To me, it seems like during those 3000 years between when Amon was imprisoned within the Void and when the events of SC1 happened, Duran would have needed to proceed under the assumption that the Overmind was not going to be able to locate Aiur in time in order to take the fight to the Protoss in order for him to get enough psionic energy stockpiled in order to help Amon.

    Therefore, we must look at the quote Duran said in the "Into the Void" mission of "The swarm had one purpose: the assimilate the Protoss and create the hybrid. Now you are no longer needed." This sentence is true, but Duran failed to mention is the timing factor. If the hybrids could not be created quickly enough, then it'll all be for nothing because the prison Amon was stuck in would kill him.

    Let us now go back to "Dark Origins," along with what we know from LotV: it would seem that once the 2nd Overmind was killed and control of the swarm lost to Kerrigan, Duran simply switched production methods: instead of using the swarm to assimilate the Protoss to create hybrids, he decided instead to use terran tech to breed them instead. We saw that back in "Dark Origins," and this was further explained upon in "Templar's Charge," where Karax confirmed that it was via the Moebius production facility at Revascar that Amon's hybrid armies are born.

    But once again, the timing plays a critical factor. After all, how could have Duran predicted exactly when the Overmind would finally know the location of Aiur? For all he knew, it could have been thousands of years after the events of SC1 and SC2 before the Overmind finally found out, and by then Amon would have been long dead. Do not forget, the psionic energy to release Amon from his prison could not have come from the swarm itself, since according to the SC1 manual, the Zerg themselves didn't have too much psionic powers (prior to Kerrigan becoming part of the swarm).

    Therefore, it would have been vital to take the psionic energies of another species in order to help Amon. Since the terran race was still in its infancy (this is true even by the time of LotV as the average terran had no psionic abilities at all), Duran knew it would have been vital to take the psionic energies from the Protoss instead. But if the Overmind could not locate Aiur quickly enough, then Duran would have deemed it necessary to find another way drain the Firstborn's psionics.

    If that's true, it would only make sense that Duran would have begun the hybrid production via terran tech (or any non-Zerg assimilation method) long before the events of SC1 happened. It would be the only way to help his master, after all...

  2. #2
    TheEconomist's Avatar Lord of Economics
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    Default Re: Could the Hybrid Production Have Been Around Way Longer Than We All Thought

    If I can make jokes, I can also give compliments. This looks like a well thought out, conversation starting topic. Good job.


    Although I'm sure someone will quote chapter, section, article, and verse of the lore to destroy it, but that happens to the best of us.



    Rest In Peace, Old Friend.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Could the Hybrid Production Have Been Around Way Longer Than We All Thought

    Quote Originally Posted by TheEconomist View Post
    If I can make jokes, I can also give compliments. This looks like a well thought out, conversation starting topic. Good job.


    Although I'm sure someone will quote chapter, section, article, and verse of the lore to destroy it, but that happens to the best of us.
    I'm merely trying to make the most of the SC1 and SC2 lore and try to put them together WITHOUT contradiction. Sure we all knew SC2 had inconsistencies, but this is no different than what I did back on the battlenet forums, try to see what Blizzard was thinking.

    Granted more than likely they just weren't thinking AT ALL, but still...

  4. #4
    Gradius's Avatar SC:L Addict
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    Default Re: Could the Hybrid Production Have Been Around Way Longer Than We All Thought

    Quote Originally Posted by TheEconomist View Post
    Although I'm sure someone will quote chapter, section, article, and verse of the lore to destroy it, but that happens to the best of us.
    Dang, you know us too well! :3

    1) How do Hybrids collect energy from people having a battle? Kerrigan was supposed to be a special circumstance because she was hit with the artifact.
    2) Wouldn't that same energy from random battles be way more than a single person like Kerrigan, therefore invalidating your entire "That would then explain why Duran let Kerrigan live despite the possible threat she could pose" paragraph? Don't tell me Kerrigan has more psionic power than thousands of beings. Controlling them seems to be relatively easy. Alan Schezar used random ghosts to do it.
    3) Amon ordered the Overmind to attack the protoss anyway, so Amon should have given him the location of Aiur anyway from the start.
    4) Duran could have given the Overmind the location of Aiur easily, which pretty much invalidates the 3000 years of waiting.
    5) Why would Amon's prison kill him when he seems to be the very essence of the Void and controls every aspect of it? Those void crystals pretty much ensure that he thrives in that environment. It took a hell of alot to destroy them all which only THEN made him vulnerable to Kerrigan.
    6) "But if the Overmind could not locate Aiur quickly enough, then Duran would have deemed it necessary to find another way drain the Firstborn's psionics." - or he could just tell him where it is.
    7) "If that's true, it would only make sense that Duran would have begun the hybrid production via terran tech (or any non-Zerg assimilation method) long before the events of SC1 happened." - I don't see how you jumped to that conclusion when even you've repeated that timing is critical and therefore Duran did not even know about the terrans at the time, who lived halfway across the galaxy.
    8) None of this actually explains why Amon didn't just combine the Tal'Darim Protoss and Zerg when he had access to both of them at the same time.
    Last edited by Gradius; 03-22-2016 at 07:54 PM.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Could the Hybrid Production Have Been Around Way Longer Than We All Thought

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    Dang, you know us too well! :3

    1) How do Hybrids collect energy from people having a battle? Kerrigan was supposed to be a special circumstance because she was hit with the artifact.
    2) Wouldn't that same energy from random battles be way more than a single person like Kerrigan, therefore invalidating your entire "That would then explain why Duran let Kerrigan live despite the possible threat she could pose" paragraph? Don't tell me Kerrigan has more psionic power than thousands of beings. Controlling them seems to be relatively easy. Alan Schezar used random ghosts to do it.
    3) Amon ordered the Overmind to attack the protoss anyway, so Amon should have given him the location of Aiur anyway from the start.
    4) Duran could have given the Overmind the location of Aiur easily, which pretty much invalidates the 3000 years of waiting.
    5) Why would Amon's prison kill him when he seems to be the very essence of the Void and controls every aspect of it? Those void crystals pretty much ensure that he thrives in that environment. It took a hell of alot to destroy them all which only THEN made him vulnerable to Kerrigan.
    6) "But if the Overmind could not locate Aiur quickly enough, then Duran would have deemed it necessary to find another way drain the Firstborn's psionics." - or he could just tell him where it is.
    7) "If that's true, it would only make sense that Duran would have begun the hybrid production via terran tech (or any non-Zerg assimilation method) long before the events of SC1 happened." - I don't see how you jumped to that conclusion when even you've repeated that timing is critical and therefore Duran did not even know about the terrans at the time, who lived halfway across the galaxy.
    8) None of this actually explains why Amon didn't just combine the Tal'Darim Protoss and Zerg when he had access to both of them at the same time.
    For point 4, this is exactly what I'm getting at: if the Overmind at that time was not fully developed, perhaps it was only meant to respond to Amon's orders. It'd listen to no one else, not even Duran

    For point 5, it's harder to tell because we don't know enough about the Void. And therefore, we don't really know WHAT kind of a prison the Xel'Naga put him in. As for him being one with the Void, that's BS by Ouros because if that's true, the only way to kill him would be to destroy the whole of the Void dimension, which I doubt happened at the end of the epilogue.

    Point 6 is still the same, Gradius. It's possible the Overmind at that time was only meant to listen to Amon, not Duran.

    Point 7 this is why I said NON-assimilation method. It doesn't have to be via the terrans, just not the original way.

    For point 8, the Tal'darim are easy, but from what I got out of LotV, it appears that most of the Tal'darim didn't know much about the Zerg. This was shown in the convo between Vorazun and Alarak at the beginning of "Templar's Return."

    Back to point 3, once again Gradius, you don't seem to see that Amon didn't think the regular Xel'Naga would confront him at Zerus. It's possible his plan was to finish binding the Zerg to the Overmind, and THEN tell the Overmind about Aiur. But the regular Xel'Naga confronted and defeated him there before that could happen.

    I get what you mean from point 2, which makes me wonder if these energies could only be collected by hybrids or something. If so, it'd mean that the hybrid army (made by terran tech) still wasn't ready by the time of 2500. It'd also mean that the 1st hybrid we saw in "Dark Origins" could have just been a new production method by Duran. In other words, maybe he did try to use terran tech to build hybrids, but in Dark Origins he used a different way to do it as the previous versions are only meant to be as soldiers, not energy collectors.
    Last edited by ragnarok; 03-22-2016 at 08:46 PM.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Could the Hybrid Production Have Been Around Way Longer Than We All Thought

    I'm not saying I agree with this theory; but it's said the Overmind severed its psychic connection to the Xel'Naga. Perhaps Amon was in the middle of programming the Overmind when this took place, perhaps explaining some seeming inconsistancies -- and preventing Amon fro. alerting the Overmind of Aiur's location after ir assimilated the Gargantis proximae.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Could the Hybrid Production Have Been Around Way Longer Than We All Thought

    Quote Originally Posted by Visions of Khas View Post
    I'm not saying I agree with this theory; but it's said the Overmind severed its psychic connection to the Xel'Naga. Perhaps Amon was in the middle of programming the Overmind when this took place, perhaps explaining some seeming inconsistancies -- and preventing Amon fro. alerting the Overmind of Aiur's location after ir assimilated the Gargantis proximae.
    That's an inconsistency with the lores. What I wrote above is to try to use the SC2 lore to make some sense out of SC1.

    It'd be pointless for the Overmind to sever the connection to the Xel'Naga that way because Amon created him. If the Overmind cut the connection, he'd be able to counter the order Amon gave him to kill the Protoss, and that clearly didn't happen.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Could the Hybrid Production Have Been Around Way Longer Than We All Thought

    Giving this thread a read in the morning, but I wanna say this now since I won't remember: I'm surprised and pleased this forum has become more active again since LotV was released. For a while last year, it was almost as dead as Blizzforums just before it went down (RIP; wanted to go through it a month ago ).
    Arcturus Mengsk did nothing wrong. Tarsonis is just a conspiracy theory.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Could the Hybrid Production Have Been Around Way Longer Than We All Thought

    Quote Originally Posted by Muspelli View Post
    Giving this thread a read in the morning, but I wanna say this now since I won't remember: I'm surprised and pleased this forum has become more active again since LotV was released. For a while last year, it was almost as dead as Blizzforums just before it went down (RIP; wanted to go through it a month ago ).
    It'll only be active for a little while.

  10. #10
    Gradius's Avatar SC:L Addict
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    Default Re: Could the Hybrid Production Have Been Around Way Longer Than We All Thought

    Quote Originally Posted by Muspelli View Post
    Giving this thread a read in the morning, but I wanna say this now since I won't remember: I'm surprised and pleased this forum has become more active again since LotV was released. For a while last year, it was almost as dead as Blizzforums just before it went down (RIP; wanted to go through it a month ago ).
    It's pretty much a refuge from all the trolls/morons on battle.net. I can't really handle that place anymore.

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