How to Rework Starcraft II

[DarthYam]

+1 for Aldrius.




As to the idea of "redemption", I can take it or leave it. I would prefer if the redemption was solely influenced by internal events rather than being conditional on a plot device though. In WoL, Raynor isn't really seeking redemption until Valerian reveals the plot device artifact which magically grants him the ability to fix his self-imposed guilt of not saving Kerrigan by being able to save Kerrigan. In HotS, Kerrigan isn't really seeking redemption until it's revealed Raynor (who fulfills the magic plot device that the artifact does in WoL) is alive, rescuable and is chided by him into being good. That last part especially demeans Kerrigan's agency since it makes everything she does like it's for the glorious light that is Raynor rather than doing it based from a personal source of contrition/taking responsibility (that's got nothing to do with perceived sexism either).

I agree in as much as Heart of the Swarm. In the original outline, Kerrigan was going to be a lot nicer. She would have spared Lassara and the other protoss, and she would have ultimately found common ground with Lassara (asking about the research she was doing). That's also why I suggested a sort of mentor student relationship with Zeratul. They don't like another, and Kerrigan would feel conficted due to her guilt of what she did to raszegal. the identity theme would still be there, but Kerrigan would be trying to balance her humanity with controlling the zerg, maybe finding a balance (in the final missions of heart she was in a good place. Willing to bust skulls but caring about human life.)

[ragnarok]

I agree in as much as Heart of the Swarm. In the original outline, Kerrigan was going to be a lot nicer. She would have spared Lassara and the other protoss, and she would have ultimately found common ground with Lassara (asking about the research she was doing). That's also why I suggested a sort of mentor student relationship with Zeratul. They don't like another, and Kerrigan would feel conficted due to her guilt of what she did to raszegal. the identity theme would still be there, but Kerrigan would be trying to balance her humanity with controlling the zerg, maybe finding a balance (in the final missions of heart she was in a good place. Willing to bust skulls but caring about human life.)

Except balancing humanity requires her to actually see there's good in humanity. That never really happened even by the end of HotS. If not for Raynor's sake, the very most that could be said for her view on humanity right before the Korhal invasion was that Kerrigan was willing to admit maybe, just maybe, there was a bit more to the picture than just the very WORST she had assumed for so long.

[DarthYam]

I'm so getting huge flak for this post.

Okay. In as succinct a way as possible, here's what I think the problems are, and how I'd fix them.

WoL

1) Jim is way too much of a super hero. In fact, all the protagonists are. When everyone's meeting up for the final battle in Into the Void it just feels like Wonder Woman called up the rest of the Justice League to go fight a really wimpy version of Darkseid or something. So I'd probably fix that. What saved Raynor from being boring/stale in the original StarCraft (and Brood War) is that he was used pretty sparingly, and when he was used he wasn't sickeningly successful at everything (in fact he failed a lot and made plenty of mistakes). I'm not sure WoL allows for that, but basically I think if Metzen had actually been writing the game and wasn't getting stonewalled by his team we'd have seen a much more dynamic Raynor character.

2) WoL in general is just so... soft. There's some fun plot lines but most of the subplots are pretty weak. Nothing really feels impactful enough and everything being so anthology based and not building on itself is pretty weak. Too many one-off planets. Also a lot of the plotting which was actually interesting just didn't get enough build-up/pay off. Tychus is interesting, but he really doesn't do much of anything outside of telling Raynor about artifacts and piloting the Odin. The whole revelation that he's working for Mengsk is revealed right at the beginning pretty much, and then doesn't come into play at all until the last cutscene.

3) Valerian is boring. For one of the big new selling points of the campaign Valerian is just SO dull. It seems like they were trying to make him ambiguous or mysterious but he just isn't. He's just... absurdly vague. It feels like he's trying to hide something, but in actuality isn't really hiding anything. So... I'd just write him better probably. Maybe have him actually be up to something. Maybe a plot which spans multiple games.

4) This one's the big one. The main dramatic thrust. Through out the story, the big question is... is Raynor actually going to go through on his promise to kill Kerrigan? It's not expressly stated but there's a lot of scenes referencing it and showcasing this fact. Then... they reveal the prophecy and the whole choice is pretty much taken out of Raynor's hands. If you kill Kerrigan; you ensure the end of all existence. So Raynor basically has no choice and the whole subplot is ruined.

5) For that matter, the existence of a prophecy and Zeratul's whole subplot is just absolutely atrocious. Prophecies are lazy, lazy writing and they take all the agency and authenticity out of a character's choices and decisions and they become nothing more than roles playing out a preordained storyline. And that's especially evident in this. Zeratul is also massively uninteresting after the first mission (while I hate the cutscene, I actually like that first cave mission as Zeratul, it's really fun).

6) And then the Overmind/Tassadar thing. I like the idea of going back to commune with the Overmind to find out something about the Xel'Naga, but the specifics are pretty bad. And I really didn't need to see Tassadar again.

WoL is just so patronizing.

But unlike Heart, it actually kind of knows what it is. Heart is just a mess.

1) It's just so... lukewarm. It's pretty much the exact same plot as Queen of Blades but stretched to be twice as long stuffed full of nonsense with a way more narrow focus and a really bipolar protagonist who can't make up her mind about what her personality is, who she is, and what she wants. Brood War Kerrigan was decisive, direct, knew what she wanted, and knew how to get it.

2) Mengsk is a lame villain. Mengsk was better as the amoral side character. An unpredictable element. Having him... I guess team up with Narud to make hybrid and whatnot just made him feel way too out of his element and made him a really one dimensional antagonist. He's just a slimy bastard. I don't wanna keep making comparisons to Brood War but that game knew to deal with him early because it knew that he just didn't have the legs to be a major antagonist for too long (also Brood War liked to change things up more dramatically and quicker than SC2 does).

3) Just... the supporting cast is a mixed bag ranging from cool/funny (Abathur) to what the hell were they thinking (Izsha) to please stop talking and get off my screen now (Dehaka). Could have been a lot stronger, and there probably could have been a much wider mix of different races involved. Again in... um... some other games, you got to see the different factions interacting with one another and there was more of a layer of complexity to things, where you got to see different perspectives. In all three of these products you're playing as a superhero with a slightly different flavour than the other superheroes who is fighting the EVIL Dominion, or the EVIL Tal'darim or the EVIL Amon and his Hybrids or the EVIL Renegade Zerg. That's pretty much universally what your enemies are. It just gets a little monotonous. Even if they tried to break up the mission structure (which I thought they did a crummy job at anyway).

4) The continuing issue with the Kerrigan plot, and just her whole interaction with Raynor feels so... artificial. They weren't even that chummy in Rebel Yell. Now, after she's slaughtered billions of people and killed friends he's cared about he's totally okay with running away with her and cracking wise? I get that they wanted to tell a romance story but it's lathered on pretty thick and not that well told. It also completely removes any culpability on Kerrigan's part as the Queen of the Zerg and then pretty much lets her have her cake and eat it too. Same with Zeratul and in LotV, Artanis, these people are just totally forgiving of Kerrigan for literally no reason other than a prophecy said they had to. It's infuriating.

Honestly I have issues with it, but Legacy of the Void is at least a tightly told story and is about something substantial. It doesn't have a heavy handed plot, it doesn't have insultingly bad dialogue or situations. It doesn't boil everything down to a prophecy or a single love story or even a single character (the protagonist is Artanis, and I don't really love him, but I don't dislike him either). Characters have to give things up, characters die (kind of stupidly, but they're people we actually care about and not one-dimensional villains). The new characters and the supporting cast are excellent, and they're not all just nice people that get along with our superhero protagonist. I REALLY don't like how Zeratul dies and it's really melodramatic, but it is pretty well done. I just wish he'd done something in SC2 that I actually cared about and thought was cool. Even the ending is pretty good. It still has some of the issues of WoL/HotS (mainly just... way too much filler, and way too much 'here's an interesting but ultimately pointless concept' like with the Primal Zerg.)

For a lot of these, I think the only really way to 'fix' them was to really just take more time with the storytelling and just... let it flow a little better.

I'll be honest. Aldrius is looking through rose colored glasses. I watched the cinematic of brood war and youtube and all I thought was that Kerrigan was bland and one note evil. She was one dimensional. I LIKED having a Kerrigan who is willing to stop and reflect on her actions, wondering if maybe she's going to far. It seems to me that Aldrius wants Kerrigan to be what she was in Brood War; the idea that Kerrigan MUST be evil is the only way to go.

I'm sorry Brood war was just shitty writing and I'll say it. Heart of the Swarm was superior in almost every way. I really honestly think people who think Brood War was great storytelling are being overly nostalgic. This isn't like Star Wars, where the original holds up. Brood War really is just shitty writing. It's irritating watching people felate itlike it's shakespeare. Some of the douchier battlenet members (and even that Andrew guy everyone treated like the second coming) ignore the fact that a lot of brood war's writing was actually pretty god damn stupid. The sequel trilogy had it's problems, but those who claim brood war was leagues better are either lying or in denial

[Turalyon]

^ Way to strawman, Yam!

[DarthYam]

^ Way to strawman, Yam!

Maybe I was uncharitable. I felt that the idea of a Kerrigan who'se introspective is a fine idea rather than a bad one. I'm also annoyed at how people are always going on about how SO MUCH BETTER brood war was. The guys on battlenet are ridiculously obnoxious about it.

HOTS was uneven but I honestly felt that looking at the outline that had a few changes been made it would have EASILY defeated brood war.

[TheEconomist]

I'm sorry Brood war was just shitty writing and I'll say it. Heart of the Swarm was superior in almost every way.

[KaiserStratosTygo]

I'm sorry Brood war was just shitty writing and I'll say it. Heart of the Swarm was superior in almost every way.

For the first time in a good bit me and TheEconomist are on the same brainwave.

almost spat out my drink for real.

[Gradius]

Maybe I was uncharitable. I felt that the idea of a Kerrigan who'se introspective is a fine idea rather than a bad one. I'm also annoyed at how people are always going on about how SO MUCH BETTER brood war was. The guys on battlenet are ridiculously obnoxious about it.

HOTS was uneven but I honestly felt that looking at the outline that had a few changes been made it would have EASILY defeated brood war.

You've been butthurt that people continuously trash SC2's inferior writing for years now. Just let it go.

[TheEconomist]

The guys on battlenet are ridiculously obnoxious about it.

If this is true, then the forum has come a long way since I last went there. Seems like the missionary work of Saint Gradius has born fruit. May God bless him with eternal joy.

[Aldrius]

I'll be honest. Aldrius is looking through rose colored glasses. I watched the cinematic of brood war and youtube and all I thought was that Kerrigan was bland and one note evil. She was one dimensional. I LIKED having a Kerrigan who is willing to stop and reflect on her actions, wondering if maybe she's going to far. It seems to me that Aldrius wants Kerrigan to be what she was in Brood War; the idea that Kerrigan MUST be evil is the only way to go.

And it seems to me like you haven't responded to a SINGLE one of my points and just continue to question my argument on the basis of... me liking Brood War and having first played it in 2001. And repeat the same thing over and over again while attributing an argument to me that I haven't even said. (Even originally you brought up this topic in response to me, when I didn't even MENTION Brood War Kerrigan AT ALL.)

I want a Kerrigan who's decisive, knows what she wants, and is willing to do anything to achieve that goal. I want a story that allows it's main character to do morally questionable things, or to take actions in the name of objectives that you're not sure you agree with in an actually shocking way, and not in a way where the story is rubbing it in your face. I don't want a safe story with lots of bland 'cool' stuff like Primal Zerg which, while interesting ultimately serves the narrative only as a means to introduce a 'good guy Zerg'. While completely under developing the concept.

That has nothing to do with morality. The Kerrigan in Brood War is more amoral than she is immoral. She commits immoral deeds yes (such as killing Fenix), but those are done for cold pragmatic reasons which we've explored and you haven't refuted at all except to shout "ROSE COLOURED GLASSES" at me. Like that's somehow an argument when it's nothing but a huge fallacy.

I want a Kerrigan that isn't staring at her navel, or who barters with stupid flat characters like Valerian (who's entire arc happened off-screen during Heart apparently) while she lectures people like some nagging schoolyard nun who knows better, even though she's slaughtered thousands of people and invaded countless worlds for the sake of her own power. Out of sheer paranoia. I miss the Kerrigan who clearly hates herself and doesn't think anyone is capable of caring about her. Not because she's pointing a gun at her own head in some pathetic, weepy moment, but who's actively decided that people are going to hate her (or at best pity her), and the only way she's going to survive is to be okay with that hatred and to throw it back in their faces.

Brood War takes concepts from through out the story line (Mengsk's betryal of Kerrigan, her relationship with Tassadar in Overmind, her constant cat and mouse games with Zeratul) and SMASHES them together to create explosive outcomes. And True Colours is the ultimate manifestation of that in so many ways that The Reckoning isn't. And True Colours does it in a unique, shocking way. Reckoning does it in the most pat, the most expected, the most obvious, the most moralistically preachy way possible. Mengsk = Victimizer, Bad. Kerrigan = Good. But she's a victim so she's not really empathetic or endearing, she's just pitiable.

Heart of the Swarm doesn't even seem to understand Kerrigan and Zeratul's relationship. It's just two weird looking aliens chit chatting about the plot and what's about to happen. While... kerrigan points out a plot hole and Zeratul just doesn't seem to give a shit. Where's the pay off in that? We waited 10 years of living with that moment where Kerrigan OBSCENELY forces Zeratul to kill the person he loves the most just for Zeratul... not to care? How is that good character writing?

Beyond that, the Zerg in Heart of the Swarm are just lame. Even in Wings of Liberty at least they're intimidating and feeling somewhat overwhelming. In Heart they're just... I dunno. There's nothing vicious or aggressive or violent about them anymore. It's just... sad. It's sad that they're possessed by something evil. I don't even know how I'm supposed to be reacting to it, never mind how I actually was supposed to get enjoyment out of it on the most basic of levels.