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Thread: How to Rework Starcraft II

  1. #231

    Default Re: How to Rework Starcraft II

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    I think people say that because really she doesn't act that much nicer than when she was infested in BW. She spared people back then too (Mengsk, Zeratul, Artanis) and also focused on military targets. I don't remember any missions where she goes out of her way to kill civilians in BW, do you? She also let everyone live at the end of the game. Yes, it was only so she could toy with them later, but from the outside perspective, she acts just as evil if not the same. Heck, in HoTS unlike BW we actually do see her explicitly attack civilian targets (cocooned colonists, destroyed apartments, destroyed planets, etc).

    So yeah, it's no surprise that nobody really cares if she "feels bad about it" now after all that. If I learned that Stalin felt bad about killing millions of people, it wouldn't really change my opinion of him. The only thing that means to me is that instead of labeling Stalin/Kerrigan as psychopaths, they can now be designated as sociopaths because they actually have a conscience yet still kill people anyway.

    1.) Telematros
    2.) The Miners of the Kel Morian Combine

    Kerrigan had a reason to go on the warpath, and the reason she did spare the people on Korhal wasn't "She'd have had to morph a couple more disposable zerg clones from her hatcheries?" It was that Mengsk's elite guard may have actually had a chance to kill far more of her troops and maybe even turn the tide of the battle. She increased her chances of potentially loosing the battle.

    It doesn't change that when she had to choose between the "expedient but morally wrong" route and the "morally correct but inconvenient" route she choose the later. And that she did it even when she had no reason to believe Raynor would forgive her. The first time she held back was the same and because Valerian showed genuine concern.

    Kerrigan at the end of the game is NOT the same person at the start of the game. In that regards she undergoes FAR more character development than she ever did in Brood War. She pulls back from the abyss whereas in brood war she cheerfully hopscotched over it. And "I've lost everything revenge is all I have" is more sympathetic than "I WANT POWER!!!!!!!!!!!"

    Also, Turalyon part of the backstory is that many of the dominion soldiers are resocialized killers and murderers (Emily Swallow of Alpha Squadron is one). Many of the soldiers really are vicious cons who had to undergo brainwashing to be productive society members.

  2. #232

    Default Re: How to Rework Starcraft II

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    I've never read any of the EU.
    You felt they were that crappy?

  3. #233

    Default Re: How to Rework Starcraft II

    Quote Originally Posted by DarthYam View Post
    Kerrigan at the end of the game is NOT the same person at the start of the game. In that regards she undergoes FAR more character development than she ever did in Brood War. She pulls back from the abyss whereas in brood war she cheerfully hopscotched over it. And "I've lost everything revenge is all I have" is more sympathetic than "I WANT POWER!!!!!!!!!!!"
    True, DarthYam. But that's not how others saw it. Hell, even in the "Believe in Me" cutscene, Kerrigan knew NOTHING she did could convince Raynor from what he was thinking. And obviously, Raynor was thinking that the only thing Kerrigan regretted that whole time was losing the power of the QoB and wanted it back no matter what. Kerrigan knew it was pointless to try to explain to him otherwise, he wasn't going to listen.

    You're right about the quotes, I'll give you that, but this has to be seen from the OUTSIDE view as well. In the OUTSIDE view, assuming they see the difference, they would say it's too small and therefore negligible.

    Quote Originally Posted by DarthYam View Post
    The first time she held back was the same and because Valerian showed genuine concern.
    That's only a small part of the reason, DarthYam. The MAJOR reason is because of Raynor's reaction to her on the Moros. Since that was the only time in the game she finally tried to distance herself from the crimes committed, it also means Raynor's hostile reception finally got Kerrigan to try to actually use some rational thought, not just pure instincts. Especially since those instincts have repeatedly told her that humanity is just like Mengsk and therefore does not deserve to survive.

  4. #234

    Default Re: How to Rework Starcraft II

    Quote Originally Posted by ragnarok View Post
    True, DarthYam. But that's not how others saw it. Hell, even in the "Believe in Me" cutscene, Kerrigan knew NOTHING she did could convince Raynor from what he was thinking. And obviously, Raynor was thinking that the only thing Kerrigan regretted that whole time was losing the power of the QoB and wanted it back no matter what. Kerrigan knew it was pointless to try to explain to him otherwise, he wasn't going to listen.

    You're right about the quotes, I'll give you that, but this has to be seen from the OUTSIDE view as well. In the OUTSIDE view, assuming they see the difference, they would say it's too small and therefore negligible.



    That's only a small part of the reason, DarthYam. The MAJOR reason is because of Raynor's reaction to her on the Moros. Since that was the only time in the game she finally tried to distance herself from the crimes committed, it also means Raynor's hostile reception finally got Kerrigan to try to actually use some rational thought, not just pure instincts. Especially since those instincts have repeatedly told her that humanity is just like Mengsk and therefore does not deserve to survive.
    I've referred to the Moros as Kerrigan's Heel Realization. The way she's been justifying what she's been doing is to "avenge" Raynor. When the man she's using to justify her actions directly calls her out it forces her to take a long look in the mirror at which point she finally realizes how selfish and myopic she's been. She does terrible things but when it counts (at the end) she pulls back from the abyss and does the right thing. The Kerrigan at the Korhal Battle is a far cry from the Kerrigan who sacrifices Lassara on Kaldir. THAT'S what keeps her from being terrible; the fact that the character development sticks in Legacy makes it better.

  5. #235
    Gradius's Avatar SC:L Addict
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    Default Re: How to Rework Starcraft II

    Quote Originally Posted by DarthYam View Post
    1.) Telematros
    2.) The Miners of the Kel Morian Combine
    Going by the standards you're judging all of her targets in HoTS, these are all military targets. What differentiates the two IMO are explicit references (cocooned colonist and ruined apartment buildings/road/shop doodads) and necessity (Kerrigan had to blow up Talematros and steal minerals for her plan to work, but she didn't have to spread creep over the entirety of the surface of multiple planets).
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthYam View Post
    Kerrigan had a reason to go on the warpath, and the reason she did spare the people on Korhal wasn't "She'd have had to morph a couple more disposable zerg clones from her hatcheries?" It was that Mengsk's elite guard may have actually had a chance to kill far more of her troops and maybe even turn the tide of the battle. She increased her chances of potentially loosing the battle.
    Meh. It's hard for me to buy when the planet is literally surrounded by Leviathans and the swarm outnumbers everyone. The Dominion is a joke compared to the swarm in terms of military strength; Kerrigan made sure of that in BW. And if not, the swarm can rebuild much faster than Terrans.

    Quote Originally Posted by DarthYam View Post
    Kerrigan at the end of the game is NOT the same person at the start of the game. In that regards she undergoes FAR more character development than she ever did in Brood War.
    Sure, but that doesn't mean her character is any good. I feel like they completely fucked up her motivations and turned her into a sociopath. It's hard for me to sympathize with that, though sure the idea itself could have had more mileage than what we got in BW.

    But BW was still interesting. You saw a childish power monger who only wanted to kill people, I saw a character that made me question "how much of the old Sarah is left? And how much of the darkness within her is from the infestation vs how much was originally there?" All game Raynor struggles with the question of just how much she changed, and only when he resolved to kill her in the end did their arcs come to a satisfying conclusion.
    Last edited by Gradius; 06-02-2016 at 03:56 PM.

  6. #236

    Default Re: How to Rework Starcraft II

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    Meh. It's hard for me to buy when the planet is literally surrounded by Leviathans and the swarm outnumbers everyone. The Dominion is a joke compared to the swarm in terms of military strength; Kerrigan made sure of that in BW. And if not, the swarm can rebuild much faster than Terrans.
    Yes it is, Gradius. But you have to admit that Kerrigan learned from WoL in terms of military battles. After all, the swarm greatly outnumbered the Dominion forces in the Char invasion and they held out just fine under Raynor's leadership. My point is that as Kerrigan saw it, if the Dominion military was led by someone COMPETENT.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    I feel like they completely fucked up her motivations and turned her into a sociopath. It's hard for me to sympathize with that, though sure the idea itself could have had more mileage than what we got in BW.
    Well, in that regards, you can't expect the whole betrayal thing to happen again. Look at it this way Gradius, let's pretend we could write SC2 story all over again. You can't expect to go about ANOTHER round of betrayals and such because no one would listen to her anymore.

    And since you said the idea itself could have had more mileage, this should have made Fenix's death scene in BW more important, since at that point in time Kerrigan felt Raynor turned against her permanently and all.

  7. #237

    Default Re: How to Rework Starcraft II

    Quote Originally Posted by DarthYam View Post
    I've referred to the Moros as Kerrigan's Heel Realization. The way she's been justifying what she's been doing is to "avenge" Raynor. When the man she's using to justify her actions directly calls her out it forces her to take a long look in the mirror at which point she finally realizes how selfish and myopic she's been. She does terrible things but when it counts (at the end) she pulls back from the abyss and does the right thing. The Kerrigan at the Korhal Battle is a far cry from the Kerrigan who sacrifices Lassara on Kaldir. THAT'S what keeps her from being terrible; the fact that the character development sticks in Legacy makes it better.
    DarthYam, she did the right thing at the end but by then it's too late to escape retribution, that's the point I'm trying to make here. There's plenty of fiction out there where you try to get a killer to understand what he/she has done, and he/she finally understands it at the end of the story. But just understanding it is only the starting point. If you don't DO anything about it, it makes little difference.

  8. #238

    Default Re: How to Rework Starcraft II

    Quote Originally Posted by ragnarok View Post
    DarthYam, she did the right thing at the end but by then it's too late to escape retribution, that's the point I'm trying to make here. There's plenty of fiction out there where you try to get a killer to understand what he/she has done, and he/she finally understands it at the end of the story. But just understanding it is only the starting point. If you don't DO anything about it, it makes little difference.
    I said before how when Heart of the Swarm first had details released Lassara would be spared. Kerrigan would strike up a rapport with her and earn her respect and even friendship.

    I'd also have Kerrigan NOT return to being Zerg; instead Zeratul exposes her to certain Xed'naga artifacts that increase her psychic powers. Kerrigan has a small link left with the Zerg (enough to command them) but her mind is human. This is a rough idea that I intend to develop later

    Kaldir: The Protoss attack her; Kerrigan curb stomps the base but leaves the survivors alive. They're held captive. Kerrigan talks to Lassara. Seeing an outsider's description of her atrocities makes her more conflicted and adds to her inner turmoil; I'd have Kaldir be TWO missions; the first is the hunt for Na'fash. The Second is overwhelming the protoss base on the world.

    Char: Kerrigan goes after the commander of the base. She recruits Za'gara. In the base we find out that Moebius Corp has been doing really unethical shit.

    Zerus I'd replace with Aiur or something similar. She communes with the overmind's corpse to learn more of her destiny. At this point we learn that "Tassadar" is in fact the Tassamind. When Tassadar did his attack his soul merged with the overmind's as they perished. They ascended to being Xel'naga, and learn what the hell is going on. Hence the warning Zeratul got. We get partial fragments of Amon's backstory here (we learn that he was a Xel'Naga and that he was defeated and cast into the void by his brethren.) Kerrigan merges with the Tassamind's spirit, increasing her power tenfold. This allows her to command the swarm without becoming Zerg again. It's basically the "primal zerg" upgrade in that Kerrigan is far more powerful than she ever was but isn't insane. We get into a fight with the Tal'darim forces on the world, who want to stop Kerrigan's ascension.

    Korhal: This WOULDN'T be the final mission. During the game Korhal get's occupied by the Tal'darim and Moebius corps (Mengsk basically invited them in because his empire stands on brittle glass). Mengsk explains





    Legacy of the Void:

  9. #239

    Default Re: How to Rework Starcraft II

    Quote Originally Posted by DarthYam View Post
    Also, Turalyon part of the backstory is that many of the dominion soldiers are resocialized killers and murderers (Emily Swallow of Alpha Squadron is one). Many of the soldiers really are vicious cons who had to undergo brainwashing to be productive society members.
    So, in your book many means all and that generalisation is somehow sufficient enough to rationalise Kerrigan's killing of Dominion soldiers in general for whatever reason as being completely just? That's... interesting. There could be just as many people who enlisted in the Dominion military in the hopes of defending their homes from alien incursions, but nope, we'll just assume they're criminals too in order to prop up and maintain the designation of our protagonist as being "good".

    Even if the audience were supposed to inherently think of all Dominion military as being evil scumbuckets deserving of their death at the hands of Kerrigan, their are many instances in Sc2 where Blizz is trying to convince you that they are anything but. Raynor's speech and the depiction of the damage the Dominion forces take on Char in WoL and the Warriors cinematic in LoTV all attest to this. Somehow, all this is apparently forgotten when Kerrigan actively searches and kills many Dominion military targets and the audience is supposed to assume their all evil and desreving of death because there was symapthy for the Dominion cinematic in HotS?

    It makes it seem that the "morality" they're trying to depict, all just wishy-washy and ad hoc.

    Quote Originally Posted by ragnarok View Post
    You felt they were that crappy?
    I wouldn't know, I haven't read them. I just don't care enough to bother reading them.
    Yes, that's right! That is indeed ME on the right.


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  10. #240
    TheEconomist's Avatar Lord of Economics
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    Default Re: How to Rework Starcraft II

    Dark Templar Saga was good until SC2 destroyed its relevance. "I, Mengsk" was good until SC2 ruined Mengsk. So.. yeah ... the usual ...



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