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Thread: How to Rework Starcraft II

  1. #41
    Gradius's Avatar SC:L Addict
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    Default Re: How to Rework Starcraft II

    SC1 Kerrigan is the definition of an interesting static character. DarthYam is basically arguing that a character is only well-written if they change, which is...wrong. But even a comic book villain would be superior to HoTS Kerrigan which pretends to be good but goes on a mass murder spree while retaining the support of everyone else. The writers clearly expect us to root for her, and it insults the intelligence of anyone playing.

    Quote Originally Posted by DarthYam View Post
    Except that the UED wasn't really neccissary. Mengsk would have been a much better bad guy, using his increased power to try and destroy the other alien races. The Protoss could have been focused on trying to rebuild Aiur and build ties with their brethren (the ending of SC1 implies they won, but at a heavy price.) The UED have a lot of plot holes (like how they were able to spy for centuries, how they learned what was going on so quickly, how they got the fleet and knew about the second overmind etc.) Kerrigan the complicated anti hero would have worked much better and we could have a bitter end; Kerrigan gets her revenge on Mengsk but humanity is thrown into chaos.....just as Duran and his hybrids prepare to make their move.

    The pyramid in brood war was VERY similar to the artifact in that both were zerg killing weapons; except that the pyramid involves a lot of silliness about going to char (which the protoss have supposedly never gone too) and vanishes from the story after the first time it's used up until the legacy of the void campaign. The Artifact is slowly built up over the WOL campaign and at least one of the other purposes (being used to revive Amon) actually worked as a major "oh fuck" moment in that it's a major double edged sword.
    1) You don't seem to understand the definition of a plot hole. Something as reasonable as being able to "spy for centuries" is only a plothole if stated somewhere else that they can't. The UED is way more advanced.

    2) I don't subscribe to the idea that good storytelling = "you must reuse everything". Shoehorning cameos where they don't belong or drawing out an arc that should have been over ages ago isn't great writing. The fact that they repurposed the artifact to do everything and can't decide what the hell it's supposed to be makes it inferior to even something as basic as the psi emitter, which simply did its one job.

    3) Oh fuck moments are only good when you can potentially use logic and critical thinking to piece them together from facts earlier on in the story. You know, a revelation that makes sense in retrospect. Random magic consequences coming out of the blue may be an "oh fuck" moment, but they're still shit writing. This is why most plot devices tend to have only one singular function.

    Quote Originally Posted by ragnarok View Post
    The artifact was NOT a lazy plot device, Gradius. It was something the Xel'Naga used for the role of their ascension. That being said however, in the SC universe's case, the Xel'Naga got REALLY lucky because the two races happened to be in the same sector of the galaxy, and not opposite ends of the universe. I always wondered if the Xel'Naga made more than ONE Keystone, given such a possibility
    Things the artifact does:

    Deinfests Kerrigan
    Destroys waves of Zerg
    Used to revive Amon
    Extracts Amon from the Khala
    Leads the chosen races to Ulnar
    Imprisons Kerrigan/Xel'Naga

    Instead of having to use their brains to figure out how these things would be accomplished individually, the writers just to get to cop-out to "sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" and have the artifact do everything including and up to making scrambled eggs & toast. Almost like they were afraid of reusing assets and having to make a new generic fantasy magic device.
    Last edited by Gradius; 03-11-2016 at 09:01 AM.

  2. #42

    Default Re: How to Rework Starcraft II

    "Why would they build something as giant and resource intensive as an arkship after having their civilization nearly vaporized instead of just building more ships/weapons?"

    Makes a fuckton more sense then them randomly coming across ancient tech they "forgot" about.

  3. #43
    Gradius's Avatar SC:L Addict
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    Default Re: How to Rework Starcraft II

    Quote Originally Posted by KaiseStratosTygo View Post
    "Why would they build something as giant and resource intensive as an arkship after having their civilization nearly vaporized instead of just building more ships/weapons?"

    Makes a fuckton more sense then them randomly coming across ancient tech they "forgot" about.
    They don't have access to it. They spent 4 years planning to invade Aiur.

    Carriers and motherships can already contain large civilian populations. A ship that houses even more of those ships is an extravagance that can only be built during a golden age where you have too much money, not when your civilization is on the verge of destruction.

  4. #44

    Default Re: How to Rework Starcraft II

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    They don't have access to it. They spent 4 years planning to invade Aiur.

    Carriers and motherships can already contain large civilian populations. A ship that houses even more of those ships is an extravagance that can only be built during a golden age where you have too much money, not when your civilization is on the verge of destruction.
    Not saying it makes sense in general, just more so than "We have all this shit we never used for some retarded reason"

    I agree with you.

  5. #45
    TheEconomist's Avatar Lord of Economics
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    Default Re: How to Rework Starcraft II

    Wow, even I feel like starting an 'I <3 SC2' thread.



    Rest In Peace, Old Friend.

  6. #46

    Default Re: How to Rework Starcraft II

    Quote Originally Posted by TheEconomist View Post
    Wow, even I feel like starting an 'I <3 SC2' thread.
    I won't believe that even when pigs DO fly

  7. #47

    Default Re: How to Rework Starcraft II

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    Things the artifact does:

    Deinfests Kerrigan
    Destroys waves of Zerg
    Used to revive Amon
    Extracts Amon from the Khala
    Leads the chosen races to Ulnar
    Imprisons Kerrigan/Xel'Naga

    Instead of having to use their brains to figure out how these things would be accomplished individually, the writers just to get to cop-out to "sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" and have the artifact do everything including and up to making scrambled eggs & toast. Almost like they were afraid of reusing assets and having to make a new generic fantasy magic device.
    You have to remember there's no such thing as space magic, as I told you before on the battlenet forums. It merely means the tech is too advanced to be explained in scientific terms, for the time being. Besides, Duran messed with the artifact. The whole killing Zerg could have been part of that tampering, though the whole energy siphoning might have been part of its programming in the beginning, and Duran merely added a new feature or something. Karax merely had to mess with it a bit more from what Duran did to get it to yank Amon out of the Khala.

    Now, for the accomplishing individually, deinfesting Kerrigan could have simply been done via the Xel'Naga temple on Shakuras, since we already saw it kill Zerg back in Countdown, so it could have worked. For the part of reviving Amon, Amon never died in the first place, the redistributing energy part in the artifact could have worked. After all, Stukov DID have a point in HotS when he asked Kerrigan where did all her energies go after being blasted by the artifact.

  8. #48

    Default Re: How to Rework Starcraft II

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    How is that an indictment? All villains hurt those who never wronged (the hero notwithstanding) not just comic book ones. Also, comic book villains can be complex so I don't know where your generalisations are going there.



    I never denied this. Like I said, her evil/corruption in BW can be interpreted as being mostly external (the infestation), internal (her betrayal by Mengsk and being enslaved in three different ways: unconsciously/unwillingly from the Confeds, then from her own willingness with Mengsk and then finally, willingly with the Overmind broke her mind) or an equal mix of both. I do question the weight of whether it's all wholly internal or external because there's enough ambiguity where you could argue it either way endlessly. That makes her complex.



    This person clearly has no idea how an abuse victims' mind works.



    Nice generalisation. Being sociopathic or psychopathic does not preclude one from experiencing connections with other people. The former can feel them whilst the latter pretends.



    Oh, like how human Kerrigan handwrings at the morality of doing/not something but goes along with it anyway resulting in the deaths of a lot of tonne of innocent people? Psi emitters are used twice in Rebel Yell but she tacitly justifies it by shifting the responsibility of it on someone else ("Arcturus will come around. I know he will" she says at the start of New Gettysburg). If a "good" person does nothing to stop "evil", how and what good are they really?



    Controlling Raszagal and blowing up Talematros was not "pointless douchebaggery", it was done to manipulate the Protoss into doing what she wanted them to do and when. It had plot purpose. On the other hand, mocking Zeratul was pointless douchebaggery though...unless one wants to interpret that as her wanting others to "feel her pain" in a misery-loves-company sort of way since Zeratul reflects an air of nobility that she once had and lost.

    Grades of all people actually summed up what was wrong

    He said
    Kerrigan suffered just as much under Mengsk as she did the Confederacy, who took her away from her family, forced her to kill people, and subjected her to years of mental torture. But even still, she condemned unleashing zerg on Tarsonis and Antiga Prime just to take down the Confederacy. So it makes little sense that she is so willing to resort to this now, especially since she can't remember vast tracts of her time as the Queen of Blades due to her amnesia.

    Kerrigan was not an angel but she wasn't a monster. She had very clear moral standards and tried to do the right thing. She opposed inflicting pain even on those who wronged her for ten years. For her to go from that to "Oh I'm going to do horrible things to the protoss because Tassadar outsmarted me that one time" is just BAD storytelling no matter how you spin it.

  9. #49

    Default Re: How to Rework Starcraft II

    Kerrigan in BW was never impressive. Heart of the swarm has problems but Kerrigan actually EVOLVES over the story. She changes as a character and is a different person at the end.

    I think people who hold Kerrigan as a great villain are looking with rose colored glasses.
    I... didn't say anything about Brood War Kerrigan.

    But since you brought it up pre-OM Kerrigan is pretty much an abuse victim with really awful guilt issues. Uprising strongly implies her fierce loyalty to Mengsk is because she was forced to assassinate his father and he gave her a second chance. I don't think Rebel Yell presents her as strongly moralistic really. She's pretty much just Mengsk's loyal dog. She calls his methods into question but she doesn't actually do anything about it. She's definitely capable of great cruelty if pushed to it.

    And I don't think anyone's arguing that she isn't worse as a Zerg, it's just... understandable why she's worse. She's awful and cruel to Zeratul... but Zeratul is her enemy, and a threat. She's also... clearly a sadist at this point. She enjoys torturing people and being in control. She also sort of doesn't like Zeratul and kind of has a hate-on for him from way back from what happened in Overmind. She doesn't like not feeling like she's in control, and Zeratul is powerful enough to challenge her on that. That's how I've always interpreted it anyway.

    Kerrigan was not an angel but she wasn't a monster. She had very clear moral standards and tried to do the right thing.
    In what instance did she try to do the right thing, though? Can you name a specific example? She does what Mengsk tells her to. She objects once or twice, but ultimately she follows his orders. Acting as if she was some crusader for righteousness and justice is just... disingenuous.

    She's doing what she's doing for Mengsk's sake, then for the Overmind's sake, then for her own sake. Morals rarely plays a role in it outside of her being... a pretty normal person who finds things like wiping out planets objectionable in Rebel Yell.

    For her to go from that to "Oh I'm going to do horrible things to the protoss because Tassadar outsmarted me that one time" is just BAD storytelling no matter how you spin it.
    Who's spinning? She was taken and physically transformed by the Zerg. Of course that was going to affect her and change what she did and didn't think was morally objectionable. If it didn't, THAT'D be bad storytelling.
    Last edited by Aldrius; 03-11-2016 at 11:19 PM.


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  10. #50

    Default Re: How to Rework Starcraft II

    Quote Originally Posted by DarthYam View Post
    Kerrigan suffered just as much under Mengsk as she did the Confederacy, who took her away from her family, forced her to kill people, and subjected her to years of mental torture.
    That remains to be seen in the story the game represents. All we know from the game is that Kerrigan is ultimately a willing accomplice to Mengsk.

    Quote Originally Posted by DarthYam View Post
    But even still, she condemned unleashing zerg on Tarsonis and Antiga Prime just to take down the Confederacy. So it makes little sense that she is so willing to resort to this now, especially since she can't remember vast tracts of her time as the Queen of Blades due to her amnesia.
    Her condemnation is little more than a passive "I don't like it" rather than anything else. Actions/Non-actions speak louder than words and she did nothing to distance herself from the atrocities that were being committed. She is therefore complicit.

    As to the "not making sense" why she's killing people now, that's easy to counter. She is an assassin first of all and a willing one under Mengsk. Being a self-possessed assassin takes a sort of certain mind so she's someone compromised morally there already. If you couple that with the realisation of being abused through the changes brought about due to the betrayal of Mengsk (she put more trust in this guy than Raynor) and with her time with the Zerg, it actually makes sense that once she is finally free of all her abusers and now has power (as she is in BW), she's going to do anything to maintain that independence no matter what.

    Quote Originally Posted by DarthYam View Post
    She opposed inflicting pain even on those who wronged her for ten years. For her to go from that to "Oh I'm going to do horrible things to the protoss because Tassadar outsmarted me that one time" is just BAD storytelling no matter how you spin it.
    I find it ironic that for one who lauds her for undergoing change (which is arguable in itself) in HotS, somehow cannot fathom or even appreciate the possibility that she changed throughout Sc1 to BW.
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