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Thread: How to Rework Starcraft II

  1. #61

    Default Re: How to Rework Starcraft II

    Aldrius is getting it.

    Quote Originally Posted by DarthYam View Post
    I never expected her to be the same. I could buy her being obsessed with revenge and being so determined that anyone who got in her way (the protoss for instance) would suffer. I don't buy her being sadistic over something as being outsmarted that one time.
    But it's not just one time to her. Her whole life had been controlled to some degree up until this point. Every past slight against her back then (before the Overminds death) were all part of someone/something trying to control her to some degree, up to and including Protoss actions against her in Sc1. Now that she has true agency for the first time in BW, it's her time now to show others what it feels like to be 'controlled' the only way she knows how and to prevent any scenario where she could ever be potentially 'controlled' again. If that means killing and being an arsehole whilst going about it, so be it. Classic projection.

    Her mind's essentially broken at this point - any semblance of morality she once had (which was tenuous and compromised anyway given that she was an assassin in the first place) would have been one of the very first things to go. She is irrational and overreactionary to be sure, but not without reason/cause as you suggest.
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  2. #62

    Default Re: How to Rework Starcraft II

    Quote Originally Posted by Aldrius View Post
    Kerrigan doesn't actually kill civilians in Brood War... there's probably some caught up in the collateral damage from blowing the grid in Talematros, but that's about it. And that was hardly her intended goal.

    It's only in WoL where the whole 'civilians!' thing is brought into focus.



    What we got in Brood War was a woman consumed by revenge. Part of that revenge was obviously how she was humiliated on Char and they opposed her for an extended period of time.

    Not just because Tassadar outsmarted her once.
    Well, it's not about killing civilians. Back then in the BW, she knew all along reuniting the swarm wasn't 100% guaranteed, especially if the UED still had the Psi Disruptor and everything. It was therefore necessary to show mercy in order to convince Raynor and Fenix on the alliance with her so they could believe she changed.

    In comparison in HotS it was different. After all, Zagara was the strongest the broodmothers, and Kerrigan got her to submit (even if you hadn't gone to Zerus). Therefore, as far as she was concerned, unlike in BW, it wasn't a matter of IF the swarm could be reunited, it was a matter of WHEN it's reunited.

    And there was no need for alliances since no one else was trying to take control of the swarm (since even after Zerus, she didn't fully buy Zeratul's prophecy)

  3. #63

    Default Re: How to Rework Starcraft II

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    Aldrius is getting it.



    But it's not just one time to her. Her whole life had been controlled to some degree up until this point. Every past slight against her back then (before the Overminds death) were all part of someone/something trying to control her to some degree, up to and including Protoss actions against her in Sc1. Now that she has true agency for the first time in BW, it's her time now to show others what it feels like to be 'controlled' the only way she knows how and to prevent any scenario where she could ever be potentially 'controlled' again. If that means killing and being an arsehole whilst going about it, so be it. Classic projection.

    Her mind's essentially broken at this point - any semblance of morality she once had (which was tenuous and compromised anyway given that she was an assassin in the first place) would have been one of the very first things to go. She is irrational and overreactionary to be sure, but not without reason/cause as you suggest.
    That makes sense just fine for BW. For HotS I'm sure some would argue (though I wouldn't buy it) the killing was part of the whole killing all those and making many suffer so they could experience the pain she went through upon losing Raynor (prior to learning he was still alive).

    As I had argued in the past, Kerrigan's mentality in HotS towards the Dominion was that they're all just like Mengsk. Because of all the times of hurt, control, and corruption she went through during the Confederate days and all that, likely her view of humanity is there's WAY too few decent people in it (aside from Raynor) and therefore did not deserve to survive.

    This isn't really anything new if you're exposed to atrocities from them for way too long, and this is merely something we see in real life frequently (albeit on a smaller scale).

    As we all know, humanity is capable of great things, but also horrifying things (the concentration camps from the WWII days are still considered shocking to the core even today). But under normal circumstances, you're supposed to live out a life to see despite such atrocities, that's only a very small part of a much bigger picture, and most of humanity is decent.

    However, if in your whole life all you're ever exposed to is the absolute WORST that humanity has to offer, and never got a chance to see the rest of the picture, well I'm sure you can see exactly where this is going.

  4. #64

    Default Re: How to Rework Starcraft II

    I was expecting Kerrigan to be more....hot blooded. She's cold in brood war. I expected her to be more vengeful, more obsessed with making Mengsk suffer. Fanatic said that if they did what they did in Heart for brood war it might have made sense. I agree.

    Kerrigan being vengeful and angry? Makes sense. Her being sadistic and cold blooded? Yeah......no.

  5. #65

    Default Re: How to Rework Starcraft II

    Quote Originally Posted by DarthYam View Post
    I was expecting Kerrigan to be more....hot blooded. She's cold in brood war. I expected her to be more vengeful, more obsessed with making Mengsk suffer. Fanatic said that if they did what they did in Heart for brood war it might have made sense. I agree.

    Kerrigan being vengeful and angry? Makes sense. Her being sadistic and cold blooded? Yeah......no.
    It all depends on just how she saw the rest of humanity and everything. It wasn't until right before the Korhal invasion that she finally gave in to try to see humanity differently. And even then it was probably only for Raynor's sake.

  6. #66

    Default Re: How to Rework Starcraft II

    Quote Originally Posted by DarthYam View Post
    I expected her to be more vengeful, more obsessed with making Mengsk suffer.
    How would Kerrigan make Mengsk suffer without being "cold-blooded"? That's treading a very thin line. Besides, what she did to him in BW was Kerrigan making him suffer (to her at least).

    Quote Originally Posted by DarthYam View Post
    Fanatic said that if they did what they did in Heart for brood war it might have made sense. I agree.
    Do what exactly? Murdering Terrans and killing Mengsk straight-up during BW? How does that make her less "cold-blooded"?

    Having HotS occur right after Sc1 would be problematic since HotS hinges on the WoL establishing they were lovers and the ending where Raynor deinfests/"saves" Kerrigan. Both these give Kerrigan the strong motivation to do what she does in HotS. If you take all that away but continue off from where HotS' main plot-line begins at the time of BW, we have Kerrigan going on an inexplicable killing rage when Mengsk announces he "executed" Raynor when there was nothing in Sc1 to establish why she would feel so blinkered in killing Mengsk from such news. Without BW and WoL, their last interaction has Kerrigan dismissing Raynor in Agent of the Swarm as a non-threat that's not worth killing or caring about.

    Quote Originally Posted by DarthYam View Post
    Kerrigan being vengeful and angry? Makes sense. Her being sadistic and cold blooded? Yeah......no.
    I think what you're equating as "making sense" is really about your own personal taste. She's being a bitch/arsehole (people are like that when trying to stamp their authority) and you don't like that - I get it. Doesn't mean there's no basis/reason for it. Also, keep in mind that she was still infested in BW. If one doesn't like the "she chose to be sadistic" reason, one can always blame it on the infestation screwing her up. Hell, you don't have to like that either but it's still understandable/making sense either way.
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  7. #67

    Default Re: How to Rework Starcraft II

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    How would Kerrigan make Mengsk suffer without being "cold-blooded"? That's treading a very thin line. Besides, what she did to him in BW was Kerrigan making him suffer (to her at least).



    Do what exactly? Murdering Terrans and killing Mengsk straight-up during BW? How does that make her less "cold-blooded"?

    Having HotS occur right after Sc1 would be problematic since HotS hinges on the WoL establishing they were lovers and the ending where Raynor deinfests/"saves" Kerrigan. Both these give Kerrigan the strong motivation to do what she does in HotS. If you take all that away but continue off from where HotS' main plot-line begins at the time of BW, we have Kerrigan going on an inexplicable killing rage when Mengsk announces he "executed" Raynor when there was nothing in Sc1 to establish why she would feel so blinkered in killing Mengsk from such news. Without BW and WoL, their last interaction has Kerrigan dismissing Raynor in Agent of the Swarm as a non-threat that's not worth killing or caring about.



    I think what you're equating as "making sense" is really about your own personal taste. She's being a bitch/arsehole (people are like that when trying to stamp their authority) and you don't like that - I get it. Doesn't mean there's no basis/reason for it. Also, keep in mind that she was still infested in BW. If one doesn't like the "she chose to be sadistic" reason, one can always blame it on the infestation screwing her up. Hell, you don't have to like that either but it's still understandable/making sense either way.
    Part of the reason I mentioned Charles Whitman is that it could have had Kerrigan being in control and still having outside factors influence her. Whitman ultimately made the choices he did but the fact that something was physically influencing the part of his brain that controlled anger and fear meant that Whitman was subtly pushed into doing certain decisions.

    I would have had it that the infestation amplified the part of her brain that controlled fear and rage and suppressed the parts that influenced compassion and empathy. Kerrigan would have agency but the door would be open for redemption.

  8. #68

    Default Re: How to Rework Starcraft II

    Why does the door need to be open for redemption, though?

    Brood War is all about her self-destruction and her new found inability to connect with other human beings. That's what True Colours was supposed to emphasize. Even a simple line like "I've always wanted to have you killed" not only says a lot about Kerrigan's character on the whole, but also that she's indulging what's always been there.

    Uprising supports that too.


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  9. #69

    Default Re: How to Rework Starcraft II

    Quote Originally Posted by Aldrius View Post
    Why does the door need to be open for redemption, though?

    Brood War is all about her self-destruction and her new found inability to connect with other human beings. That's what True Colours was supposed to emphasize. Even a simple line like "I've always wanted to have you killed" not only says a lot about Kerrigan's character on the whole, but also that she's indulging what's always been there.

    Uprising supports that too.
    Uprising also supports Kerrigan's irrationality and not being able to think straight when someone she cared about got killed. Remember, Raynor isn't her first love, Somo Hung was. Look how she reacted in that book when he got killed.

  10. #70

    Default Re: How to Rework Starcraft II

    +1 for Aldrius.

    Quote Originally Posted by DarthYam View Post
    I would have had it that the infestation amplified the part of her brain that controlled fear and rage and suppressed the parts that influenced compassion and empathy. Kerrigan would have agency but the door would be open for redemption.
    To each their own. For me, I quite like the ambiguity of not knowing precisely whether Kerrigan's display in BW was wholly due to infestation or her wilfully choosing that path (irrational though it may seem to us) because of her psychological trauma. More juicy and open for discussion that way. Also, I'm not even sure whether one could ever have it such as you described without the story feeling too mechanical/obviously plotted out by writers/being too expository. Sc2 is full of this type of "convenient plotting" and that's what garners most of the discussions rather than the underlying themes.

    As to the idea of "redemption", I can take it or leave it. I would prefer if the redemption was solely influenced by internal events rather than being conditional on a plot device though. In WoL, Raynor isn't really seeking redemption until Valerian reveals the plot device artifact which magically grants him the ability to fix his self-imposed guilt of not saving Kerrigan by being able to save Kerrigan. In HotS, Kerrigan isn't really seeking redemption until it's revealed Raynor (who fulfills the magic plot device that the artifact does in WoL) is alive, rescuable and is chided by him into being good. That last part especially demeans Kerrigan's agency since it makes everything she does like it's for the glorious light that is Raynor rather than doing it based from a personal source of contrition/taking responsibility (that's got nothing to do with perceived sexism either).
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