Tche's deliberations on LotV Campaign

[TcheQuevara]

I think we've got good things ahead Nissa. It isn't the Starcraft from 1998 - the one we loved so much because it joined atmosphere, storytelling and gameplay, all with very simple but effective elements - but it might be better than no SC at all! Instead of a decade of pretty much no Starcraft (aside from novels about... energy creatures? roverlisks?) we'll have at least a couple DLC pushing the story forward. We have Blizzard matured away from their brainless, mass-production style of the WoW years - they were pretty much applying formulas on everything and ruining their IPs - and apparently one that absorved part of the criticism on everything. We have some few years of new SC content ahead.

I loved Alarak. As a review said, LotV was better acted then written. De Lancie convinced me from the begining. The character got a little repetitive at some point, yeah, but he still was representing a nice tension. In SC1/BW the Aiur Protoss where integrating into Shakuras - they were different, but both were noble. The Tal'Darim are evil. They worship oppression, violence and privilege. While Tassadar gave a speech about saving all sentience, the Tal'Darim were willing to destroy all sentience in the galaxy but themselves. The Rak'Shir is disgusting, according to Vorazun, and yet Artanis is willing to integrated with them too. As I said, it talks much more about diversity, in a way that only science fiction or fantasy can talk about, then the whole Dark Templar plot ever did. So even if Alarak wasn't perfect all the time, he was always creating this interesting tension.

But he was awesome most of the time, anyway. I never heard anything from the actor before so it worked great for me.

[Turalyon]

Alarak is only "good" relative to whoever else was around at the time (it's like how LotV is considered "better" than the HotS or Revenge of the Sith is "better" than the other prequels). All the other Protoss were pretty dull, even Artanis. What with the lack of facial movements combined with flat vocal delivery and overwrought solemnity of the dialogue for all the other Protoss characters, Alarak could not help but be noticed.

but it might be better than no SC at all!

I'm one of the rare people who would've preferred no Starcraft II and that was before Starcraft II became even official. To have Sc2 actually end up re-enforcing my original view is ironically sad.

Instead of a decade of pretty much no Starcraft (aside from novels about... energy creatures? roverlisks?) we'll have at least a couple DLC pushing the story forward.

Is it bad that I'm more interested in seeing how well these are going to be received and how long this'll keep going (especially when considering one has to pay for it) rather than for the actual story/lore that they're supposed to be about?

[ragnarok]

I'm one of the rare people who would've preferred no Starcraft II and that was before Starcraft II became even official. To have Sc2 actually end up re-enforcing my original view is ironically sad.

Many people were disappointed with how SC2 turned out. Metzen now just has to admit this for HotS and LotV. WoL still had a good idea, I didn't mind that too much.

[Gradius]

I don't understand the appeal behind Alarak either. He's slightly fun, but doesn't seem like an actual protoss character. His voice acting gets rave reviews for some reason, but I think he sounds like he has a speech impediment. I'm not a fan of the inclusion of the Tal'Darim to begin with, who are just darker and edgier Dark Templar. That role should have been given to some other dark templar, instead of completely dropping the unity of khala and void theme that they've been building up for multiple games to asspull an entirely new protoss civilization out of nowhere. I was sad there were no twilight templar/archons.

Many people were disappointed with how SC2 turned out. Metzen now just has to admit this for HotS and LotV. WoL still had a good idea, I didn't mind that too much.

Exact opposite. Metzen already admitted that WoL sucked:

Reflecting back on StarCraft 2’s first installment, Wings of Liberty, Metzen views it with a mix of pride and a healthy dose of writer’s self-loathing. To get ready for Legacy of the Void, he popped in Wings of Liberty just a few weeks ago to play the campaign again. The nostalgia trip came with a few bruises.

"I was like, oof, over and over again, oh my God, this sounded so good at the time," Metzen says. "Oh my God, it’s terrible."
StarCraft statue
A detailed figure of Kerrigan in the Blizzard offices

Among those storylines that didn’t make the cut was a serious "down and out" drinking problem for Raynor. The missions Metzen wanted showed Raynor screwing up in some way, even after players successfully achieved their goal. People would end up hurt, but eventually, Raynor would overcome his personal demons and find redemption.

"At the time, the team was just like, ‘Why? It’s unnecessary,’" Metzen says. "‘I just wanna see things nuked! I want to feel badass right out of the gate.’ That’s perfectly valid. If I were writing a novel about it, it might have been great.

"But in developing these fictions for games, you gotta remember, people just want to feel powerful and effective. If the first X minutes of your gameplay, the first X missions in a narrative wave, if you just feel kinda cruddy and icky and low, you’re not gonna stick with it. You’re not gonna enjoy it or bring out this heroic thing that we were really chasing, for the most part, in the first place."

Despite whatever clumsiness remains, he says, he’s still happy for the work he put in. Writing for games isn’t easy, and working on your craft requires putting your heart out there again and again.

"It’s just writers, right," he says. "We’re always like, oh, God, why did that sound like such a good idea at the time? But at the same time, as crude as things can look in hindsight, I’m super proud of it too. ... It all started somewhere. It doesn’t have to be Shakespeare. It doesn’t have to be perfect. What is perfect? We want to build these things as best we can.

"You aren’t afforded the ability to be all that precious. You gotta push passionately."

Wings of Liberty is home to many themes and stories that Metzen felt passionately about when it was made. Sometimes that makes it harder to reflect on.

"Looking back at the writing stuff over time, there’s stuff that I’m super embarrassed by," Metzen says. "Whether it was just bad writing, or there were ideas that were really important to me at the time — but I look back and I feel exposed, chasing themes or story moments that meant a lot to me at the time. But for every one of those, I’m equally proud of having taken the step, taken a stand, clumsy as it all may have been. It was real. It was pure art at the time."

http://www.polygon.com/2015/11/6/967...y-dlc-blizzard

[TcheQuevara]

Is it bad that I'm more interested in seeing how well these are going to be received and how long this'll keep going (especially when considering one has to pay for it) rather than for the actual story/lore that they're supposed to be about?

That's my attitude to Brazilian politics lately...

But I'm curious about how it'll work business wise too. I'm also curious to see what's gonna happen to the lore fandom.

I don't understand the appeal behind Alarak either. ... I'm not a fan of the inclusion of the Tal'Darim to begin with, who are just darker and edgier Dark Templar. That role should have been given to some other dark templar, instead of completely dropping the unity of khala and void theme that they've been building up for multiple games to asspull an entirely new protoss civilization out of nowhere. I was sad there were no twilight templar/archons.

The Tal'Darim aren't edgier Nerazim. The Nerazim are individualistic (for Protoss), nomadic, and their religiosity is heavy on mysticism; the Tal'Darim are hierarchical, organized and fanatical. Both are "Protoss in space", Protoss out of Aiur, settling in religiously relevant planets (with Xel Naga relics or Terrazine); but the Nerazim were the result of a diaspora and the Tal'Darim were the result of being a "chosen people". Aiur folks are bushi, proud warriors; Nerazim are hunters; and Tal'Darim are cruel and bloodlustful. You might as well say the Tal'Darim are "evil Khalai" because of how "Lawful" they are.

Going further for D&D references, Alarak is the Lawful Evil to Zeratul's Chaotic Good (and both epitomize those aspects of their societies). I don't want to feed the "Protoss are space elves" meme (I don't think they are), but they are as different as Drow are different from Wood Elves. In this comparison the Khalai would be High or Gray Elves.

The Tal'Darim were an awful idea in WoL. But for me they were one of LotV's better surprises. I agree a lot of the "antagonist protoss" stuff could be done by rogue Nerazim instead of the Tal'Darim, though.

On Alarak's character, I think that's how "character acting" looks like. I'm not into realist acting anyway.

EDIT: oh yeah, they foretold the Twilight thing for years then suddenly gave up on it. Lame. But it shows they changed directions a lot - including when they did I never thought they would and they bought your idea of having Artanis as the protagonist Seriously though Gradius, they didn't talk of the Twilight stuff because of you. You killed Zeratul, man.

[ragnarok]

I don't understand the appeal behind Alarak either. He's slightly fun, but doesn't seem like an actual protoss character. His voice acting gets rave reviews for some reason, but I think he sounds like he has a speech impediment. I'm not a fan of the inclusion of the Tal'Darim to begin with, who are just darker and edgier Dark Templar. That role should have been given to some other dark templar, instead of completely dropping the unity of khala and void theme that they've been building up for multiple games to asspull an entirely new protoss civilization out of nowhere. I was sad there were no twilight templar/archons.


Exact opposite. Metzen already admitted that WoL sucked:


http://www.polygon.com/2015/11/6/967...y-dlc-blizzard

Which really makes me wonder if he's really embarrassed by it, would he eventually allow the whole trilogy to be remade.

[Turalyon]

He's slightly fun, but doesn't seem like an actual protoss character.

That's a bad thing? Fenix in Sc1 doesn't seem like a typical Protoss character either and that's precisely why he gets some love.

His voice acting gets rave reviews for some reason

It's easy. His voice actor is the only one that doesn't seem like somebody's just reading a script out loud.

but I think he sounds like he has a speech impediment.

Well, speech impediments didn't do any harm to Abathur's cred.

The Tal'Darim aren't edgier Nerazim. The Nerazim are individualistic (for Protoss), nomadic, and their religiosity is heavy on mysticism

It would've been better if they were since it'd do away with having to explain (which they didn't) why they can't be controlled by Amon despite still having their nerve cords when they rebelled and that they just apparently have been everywhere in the K sector for a long time but apparently and suddenly have made themselves known only now. I probably would've preferred them as Nerazim since it needs to be acknowledged that not all Dark Templar are "good" and it would give us a reason why mainstream Protoss shunned/feared them (and still do) in the first place. Like the Templar being the "good" to the "bad" of the Conclave (much as I dislike how it has been reduced to such disctinctions at all) for the Protoss on Aiur, the Nerazim needed something like what the Tal'Darim represent to balance the inherent "goodness" of those Protoss on Shakuras.

The Tal'Darim aren't needed to be evil Aiur Protoss, because Blizz already have done that by foisting it onto the Conclave. The extremes the Tal'Darim go to are better explained from the Nerazim POV. How? Well, the invidividualism of the Nerazim can easily breed a character like the one we see as Alarak in LotV. The nomadic lifestyle can explain why they just suddenly have appeared now because they were previously off on their own pursuits having broken away from the "good" Shakuras Nerazim. Their religiosity and mysticism can become this fanaticism which is characterised in the game we got as this worshipping of Amon.

[TheEconomist]

Blizzard matured away from their brainless, mass-production style of the WoW years

Yeah, now they've evoled into a free-to-play model. Much better.

[KaiserStratosTygo]

I've let go of the franchise at this point, because of that shitty unnecessary epilogue (and all of of HotS)

I've since taken the stance however silly that nothing beyond BW is canon.

if they wanted me to accept shitty 2010's action film as StarCaft they've made a crucial error.

" but it might be better than no SC at all!"

Highly debatable.

" Instead of a decade of pretty much no Starcraft '

strangely enough felt better than.

"we'll have at least a couple DLC pushing the story forward."

Which I shall not buy, the story is already bad beyond repair, and I personally have boycotted blizzard for a myriad of reasons.

" We have Blizzard matured away from their brainless, mass-production style of the WoW years"

maturing now into brainless 2010's EPIC tropes.

[Nissa]

I likewise agree that no SCII is better than the one we got. The thing that kept so many fans hoping was the sequel we imagined in our heads. Honestly, most people's mental sequels were bound to be better than what we got. When I found out from a friend of a Blizz employee that a sequel was being made, post initial excitement, my first emotion was disappointment.

That's a bad thing? Fenix in Sc1 doesn't seem like a typical Protoss character either and that's precisely why he gets some love.

Huh? He seems like a 'Toss to me. He seems more like a normal example of a Templar than Tassadar. Tassadar is a rebel, but Fenix represents what the Templar are in normal circumstances.

It's easy. His voice actor is the only one that doesn't seem like somebody's just reading a script out loud.

I lol'ed.

It would've been better if they were since it'd do away with having to explain (which they didn't) why they can't be controlled by Amon despite still having their nerve cords when they rebelled and that they just apparently have been everywhere in the K sector for a long time but apparently and suddenly have made themselves known only now. I probably would've preferred them as Nerazim since it needs to be acknowledged that not all Dark Templar are "good" and it would give us a reason why mainstream Protoss shunned/feared them (and still do) in the first place. Like the Templar being the "good" to the "bad" of the Conclave (much as I dislike how it has been reduced to such disctinctions at all) for the Protoss on Aiur, the Nerazim needed something like what the Tal'Darim represent to balance the inherent "goodness" of those Protoss on Shakuras.

The Tal'Darim aren't needed to be evil Aiur Protoss, because Blizz already have done that by foisting it onto the Conclave. The extremes the Tal'Darim go to are better explained from the Nerazim POV. How? Well, the invidividualism of the Nerazim can easily breed a character like the one we see as Alarak in LotV. The nomadic lifestyle can explain why they just suddenly have appeared now because they were previously off on their own pursuits having broken away from the "good" Shakuras Nerazim. Their religiosity and mysticism can become this fanaticism which is characterised in the game we got as this worshipping of Amon.

Or they could have just never added the generic lame baddie called Amon.