Just letting you know......

[pure.Wasted]

A vulture requires skill to use effectively. A scout cannot be used because it is far too expensive and far too ineffectual to do anything; money used on a scout would be far better spent on about a dozen other units. That last part is an imbalance.

Technically, you are correct, but I think that in focusing only on certain aspects of only two units, you create a misleading dichotomy.

A Vulture doesn't simply require skill to use effectively, it requires skill to use in a way that makes it perform better than a Scout. A Mutalisk doesn't simply require skill to use effectively -- at which point it becomes one of the strongest units in the game -- it requires skill to use... AT ALL.

This is bad game design. There is nothing about tooltip descriptions that suggests to a newbie player, "This unit is good for beginners," or "This unit is intermediate in difficulty." They invest in a tech choice and then find out they can't use the thing that is yielded, because it requires tricks that you can only learn through the internet (or nice other people you meet).

Try playing with unstacked Mutas. Try sending your Vultures in with Ctrl+A. They're going to get ripped to shreds faster than you can blink.

There is an OPTION C. Put a Siege Tank into Siege Mode and he will kick ass. He WON'T kick as much ass in your hands as he will in Boxer's, or in a newbie's as in yours, but nevertheless he will be fulfilling his basic purpose. Tell a Lurker to burrow and he will destroy the enemy. He won't do it as well if you don't know that you can keep them from attacking by pressing S until enemy units get into position, or a hundred other tricks, but the unit is still USABLE.

Are the Siege Tank and Lurker somehow worse because newbies can use them for their primary purpose and not fail miserably? Or the Carrier, which newbies would never know how to kite with, yet could still use to devastating effect?

The list goes on. This is one case where we can have our cake and eat it, too.

[Pandonetho]

Man, one of the reasons why I love Starcraft is because skill can overcome counters.

Like Vultures pwning Dragoons with surround spider mines.

[Xyvik]

Technically, you are correct, but I think that in focusing only on certain aspects of only two units, you create a misleading dichotomy.

A Vulture doesn't simply require skill to use effectively, it requires skill to use in a way that makes it perform better than a Scout. A Mutalisk doesn't simply require skill to use effectively -- at which point it becomes one of the strongest units in the game -- it requires skill to use... AT ALL.

This is bad game design. There is nothing about tooltip descriptions that suggests to a newbie player, "This unit is good for beginners," or "This unit is intermediate in difficulty." They invest in a tech choice and then find out they can't use the thing that is yielded, because it requires tricks that you can only learn through the internet (or nice other people you meet).

Try playing with unstacked Mutas. Try sending your Vultures in with Ctrl+A. They're going to get ripped to shreds faster than you can blink.

There is an OPTION C. Put a Siege Tank into Siege Mode and he will kick ass. He WON'T kick as much ass in your hands as he will in Boxer's, or in a newbie's as in yours, but nevertheless he will be fulfilling his basic purpose. Tell a Lurker to burrow and he will destroy the enemy. He won't do it as well if you don't know that you can keep them from attacking by pressing S until enemy units get into position, or a hundred other tricks, but the unit is still USABLE.

Are the Siege Tank and Lurker somehow worse because newbies can use them for their primary purpose and not fail miserably? Or the Carrier, which newbies would never know how to kite with, yet could still use to devastating effect?

The list goes on. This is one case where we can have our cake and eat it, too.

Agreed...although it doesn't disguise the fact that there is no reason to use a Scout, or a Queen, no matter how skilled you are with them

Anyhoo, I just wanted to defend my side of the argument. I'm not about to get pulled back into it if rcp181 decides he doesn't like my use of terms again.

[rcp181]

I could see a single queen being useful if you're already going for hive tech, but apparently it's just not worth the multitasking.

In my defense, I wasn't the only one reacting poorly to your choice of words either. That's why you had to resort to the "ignorant masses" excuse. I ran into the same problem when I used the word "noob-accessible."

Seriously though this thread is becoming a clusterfuck. I don't even know why you came back Xyvik, because I'm pretty sure my discussion with pure was completely different from what we were talking about earlier.

He and I were arguing over "easy to use, hard to master," and the skill depth that should exist in some units. As far as I can tell we agree with each other.

You and I were arguing about what balance meant and how frequently units should be used. I agree with you that every unit should have a use, and that some stepchild SC:BW units could use some improvements, but I think we disagree on how many unit combos should necessarily be seen in a single game/matchup.

[Xyvik]

/edit
Back mostly on topic, we won't know how the balance for SC2 is until we actually get to beta test it, but I can already see several issues in the BRs that I'll be exploring further.

[dynamiK-]

Is it just me or has SC2 lost a lot of it's excitement with the announcement of the delay? Since I've heard the delay I've hardly been interested in the game and could care less when it hits shelves. Definitely I will end up getting it, but I sure won't have the motivation to buy it first thing. MW2 will be enough for me.

[n00bonicPlague]

Is it just me or has SC2 lost a lot of it's excitement with the announcement of the delay? Since I've heard the delay I've hardly been interested in the game and could care less when it hits shelves. Definitely I will end up getting it, but I sure won't have the motivation to buy it first thing. MW2 will be enough for me.

There are tons of little factors that have burned away much of the excitement for me.

The two biggest ones are the delay and the lack of LAN.

However, I think much of my excitement will return once he hit beta.

[Pandonetho]

I've hit a few lows in my time of waiting for SC2... but most of my thoughts about SC2 are usually excitement. Look at how much activity was generated just from 1 decent battle report, jesus and Blizzard has to release these things every 10 months.

[Norfindel]

If Blizzard at least had community management capable of posting now and then, talking about what changed the last week and why, the wait would be much better, and there would be much more meaningful discussions.

[Pandonetho]

If Blizzard at least had community management capable of posting now and then, talking about what changed the last week and why, the wait would be much better, and there would be much more meaningful discussions.

Yeah, too bad they hardly post jack, and their Q&A batches are what SHOULD be posted as regular posts by Karune or other community managers.