Random Thoughts Thread

[Gradius]

Thing is, there are no details about what the determinant should/would turn out to be. You only have preconceived notions and expectations... which is not what the manual lays out.

^--debating Mags in a nutshell

[Turalyon]

I mean the theories and attempts at reconciling the determinant with Metzen's retcons.

There is no conspiracy theory, "attempts" nor need to reconcile anything. The Overmind wanted psionic potential from the Terrans, as setup in the manual. The Overmind got it in the form of Kerrigan, as shown in the game. You're the one that's having the problem with this and only because you have preconceived notions and unwarranted expectations about what that psionic potential would be.

It is clear that he retconned the determinant partway through development of the game.

Don't generalise/speak for everyone. It's only "clear" to you.

The Zerg campaign feels largely pointless as a result, since the only relevant plot point is the foreshadowing of the Overmind's defeat.

This I can agree on. The Zerg campaign is weak narratively and structurally, but I like to think of its value as a character study of the Overmind since it is named Overmind, afterall. The foreshadowing of its defeat (despite its apparent victory/advantage at the end of the campaign) is quite subtle but potentially potent since the campaign is indirectly saying that the Overminds hubris is the reason for its ultimate defeat.

Anyone else who had to work from the manual would probably write new units with terran core genus. Would you contest that? What would you have done differently?

I would've contested that notion if you said "certainly" instead of "probably". I don't know what I would've done differently since I don't have any preconceived notions about it. In all honesty, I don't really care much for the conceit/plot device of "the determinant" as it is just an excuse/contrivance to have the Zerg attack Terrans. I'm kinda glad in retrospect that it wasn't given much due during Sc1 because otherwise that would indeed make Kerrigan objectively special rather than subjectively (to the Overmind that is).

The issue isn't that Kerrigan is a Mary Sue in Sc1, it's that the concept of a determinant is potentially a "Mary Sue" for the Overmind. That the determinant turns out not to objectively be an idealised "I win" button for the Overmind, since it is objectively shown to be meaningless and is not really required, is an interesting subversion of expectation on its own but it potentially goes one better by opening up the valid interpretation that the reason for the Overmind's defeat was due to the pursuit and acquisition of this determinant. The delicious irony derived from that alone is kinda awesome imo.

[Mislagnissa]

I don't know what I would've done differently since I don't have any preconceived notions about it.

You are deflecting the question. How would you have followed up on the determinant plot point in the campaign if you only had the manual to work with? Would you have written a queen of blades or an army of doom? That is not a difficult question to answer.

I did not have preconceived notions about it and I would appreciate you stop accusing me. I spend a lot of notes on an alternate history for SC, with a fair amount focused on Kerry and the Cerebrates. Yet it never occurred to me for the Zerg to spawn an army of assimilated terrans until I saw it given practical application in Enumerate. My ideas were directly influenced by what others had done before me.

In hindsight I feel really stupid that it never occurred to me until someone else did it first. Based on how the standard Zerg practice is to create armies of monsters from species they assimilate, it makes perfect sense for them to apply the same process to psychic terrans. Anyone who read the manual, but never played the game, would probably come to that conclusion.

It is highly unlikely that a writer other than Metzen would have come to the conclusion that the determinant equated to a single person. The only reason he did that is because, as he admitted in the polygon interview, he liked Kerry too much to let her die at the end of Rebel Yell.

In all honesty, I don't really care much for the conceit/plot device of "the determinant" as it is just an excuse/contrivance to have the Zerg attack Terrans.

So that is why you refused to answer my question?

That is precisely the point. The premise of starcraft is a carefully contrived non-random excuse for the three races to come into conflict. Otherwise there is no reason for them to interact, which I have painstakingly explained to you time and time again.

If you do not like it, what would you have come up with instead? Resource wars? Religious crusades? For any possible answer you give, I would level the same complaint. That complaint could be leveled against Halo, Mass Effect, Warhammer, and pretty much every video game story ever. In fact, it could be leveled at the very concept of fiction because all stories ultimately boil down to the phrase "and then a stranger came to town."

In not so many words, your last post is astonishingly absurd and lazy because your heart is clearly not in it. Please do not disrespect my intelligence by trying to claim otherwise. Just tell me you do not want to argue the crappy design of SC and we can stop. I already made a thread for a SC and you have not yet complained that my plot is obviously an excuse for three way conflict (which it clearly is), so I suspect that something more is going on with you.

[Turalyon]

You are deflecting the question. How would you have followed up on the determinant plot point in the campaign if you only had the manual to work with? Would you have written a queen of blades or an army of doom? That is not a difficult question to answer.

How am I deflecting if I don't know? I'm not a writer nor do I claim to be any more imaginative/creative/better. It never occurred to me to write my own follow-up of the determinant plot point because I don't have any major issues with it. If I tried to, I'd be coloured by my existing experience of it and it would likely just come up with a slight variation of the same thing we already.

To me, the determinant conceit has more meaningful value in the characterisation of the Overmind than its value in terms of plot. I could care less if the happens to be one person, an army or that it may even be nothing at all, since it's all the same to me. The story and how it plays out is not contingent on what shape/form/or even how effective the determinant is. Like I said previously, the apparent objective value of the determinant is really just a red herring.

So that is why you refused to answer my question?

That is precisely the point. The premise of starcraft is a carefully contrived non-random excuse for the three races to come into conflict. Otherwise there is no reason for them to interact, which I have painstakingly explained to you time and time again.

If you do not like it, what would you have come up with instead? Resource wars? Religious crusades? For any possible answer you give, I would level the same complaint. That complaint could be leveled against Halo, Mass Effect, Warhammer, and pretty much every video game story ever. In fact, it could be leveled at the very concept of fiction because all stories ultimately boil down to the phrase "and then a stranger came to town."

In not so many words, your last post is astonishingly absurd and lazy because your heart is clearly not in it. Please do not disrespect my intelligence by trying to claim otherwise. Just tell me you do not want to argue the crappy design of SC and we can stop. I already made a thread for a SC and you have not yet complained that my plot is obviously an excuse for three way conflict (which it clearly is), so I suspect that something more is going on with you.

I genuinely have no idea why you get yourself so agitated... Seems to me you've just misinterpreted what I wrote or just plainly can't fathom viewpoints other than your own. Not my problem either way.

[Mislagnissa]

I genuinely have no idea why you get yourself so agitated... Seems to me you've just misinterpreted what I wrote or just plainly can't fathom viewpoints other than your own. Not my problem either way.

If you can believe it, I keep forgetting that you consider the determinant a red herring. As far as viewpoints go in this community, your interpretation is extremely rare if not outright unique to you. Pretty much everyone else, including the writers of the games, took the concept at face value. I fathom your viewpoint and I think you are wrong. If you were right, I would consider that to be a terrible and unsatisfying storytelling choice.

Metzen clearly meddled with the determinant and that is not something I am making up without evidence simply because I dislike his writing. It is obvious from the many inconsistencies littering the earliest available lore that the narrative changed through development, because that is generally what happens to most writing projects. There was a clear divergence between the manual and the game, which Metzen admitted to in his interview: QoB was added later in development and not an originally planned part of the story. As a result of this shoehorning, Metzen redefined the determinant from Terran psychic potential against the Protoss to Kerry's individual combat prowess against Amon.

When given a choice between a fiery angel blasting a cthulhu clone and an army of post-humans clashing against the space elves, I choose the latter.

[Gradius]

I get not liking it but Metzen didn’t meddle with or retcon something from the same exact game. He did whatever he wanted.

My opinion is that it’s also not a big deal because the swarm doesn’t need a reason to roll through and destroy everything, that’s just what they did. Goals change, and he either got Kerrigan and was happy with that, or Kerrigan represented the psionic potential of humanity that he assimilated and wanted, albeit off screen.

[sandwich_bird]

When given a choice between a fiery angel blasting a cthulhu clone

Are we talking about sc2 now? You really have a thing for arguing against a position by presenting an extremely absurd and unrelated presentation that has no value to the argument other than trying to ridicule what you don't agree with.

With that said, I do actually agree with some of your positions. It's hard to argue that Kerrigan doesn't feel shoehorned in act 2 and that the determinant concept wasn't mishandled. Where I disagree is that Kerrigan is necessarily a bad thing and also that the idea that was originally there was necessarily better than what happened after Kerrigan was introduced. You're acting like a raging cultist in that regard but it's really all subjective.

[Mislagnissa]

I get not liking it but Metzen didn’t meddle with or retcon something from the same exact game. He did whatever he wanted.

I am referring to changes made to the story during development. The game script is not consistent with the manual or with itself. The earlier version of the story had the Zerg as the main antagonist and humanity as the determinant. The later version of the story had the Xel’naga as the main antagonist and Kerry as the determinant. Metzen decided to adopt the later over the former, but did not completely update the game script to reflect this.

My opinion is that it’s also not a big deal because the swarm doesn’t need a reason to roll through and destroy everything, that’s just what they did.

Really? I thought you were a Zerg fan! So humanity just happened to be in the direct path of the Zerg? The manual explained that the Zerg sent out deep space probes to find new species to assimilate (or exterminate, if deemed worthless), and this was even referenced to explain why the Khalis crystal was on Char, so that is not a believable explanation without more retcons and fanon (and canon is already full of holes). The inclusion of the terrans is pointless and stupid without a non-stupid excuse to keep them involved. The manual’s excuse was contrived, yes, but it was not completely stupid.

Goals change, and he either got Kerrigan and was happy with that, or Kerrigan represented the psionic potential of humanity that he assimilated and wanted, albeit off screen.

So the entire Zerg campaign was just Metzen’s wanking off to Kerry? That is mind-bogglingly stupid. There is no evidence in the games that the Overmind got what it wanted off-screen. That is an ad hoc rationalization to explain the various inconsistencies between the game script and the manual resulting from Metzen’s lack of planning and proofreading. One short story goes so far as to state that the Zerg cannot assimilate psychics, which is the final nail in coffin as far as I’m concerned. This only goes on to support the red herring theory, which I consider bad writing.

With that said, I do actually agree with some of your positions. It's hard to argue that Kerrigan doesn't feel shoehorned in act 2 and that the determinant concept wasn't mishandled. Where I disagree is that Kerrigan is necessarily a bad thing and also that the idea that was originally there was necessarily better than what happened after Kerrigan was introduced. You're acting like a raging cultist in that regard but it's really all subjective.

You are right that the basic ideas are not inherently bad or better than another. What matters is the execution. I am not opposed to good execution.
The problem is that giving the implacable alien locusts a human face immediately takes away their menace and mystery unless that face is something like Locutus of Borg. The only time I have ever seen something like Kerry done well was in the Annihilation custom campaign.
There is little salvageable of the Kerry idea because it contradicts how the Zerg are explained to function. As a hero unit Kerry makes no sense because the Zerg do not need warriors that are smart because they already have overlords to think for them. As a commander Kerry makes no sense because the Zerg already had brain bugs to manage broods. It introduces plot holes such as why brain bugs and overlords and queens were ever needed in the first place if any pea-brained human can control the Zerg as effectively.
You can say it is subjective and call me a cultist all you want, but Kerry simply does not fit the Zerg MO explained in the manual. An army of assimilated terrans does. Would you argue that estimation is in error? It feels to me like you are trying to keep Kerry present out of fiat rather than because you analyzed the pros and cons of the different approaches.
Let’s use an honest litmus test. If you had to write the original Zerg campaign instead of Metzen, would you really have made any of the same decisions he did? I am pretty sure anyone else would have written about a new Zerg army made from assimilated psychics, simply because assimilation is the standard origin of Zerg units.

I am tired of arguing. Can we just stop now? We have already made it clear that we will never convince each other of anything and I have already decided to move onto a clone that fulfills my vision of SC should have been.

[Turalyon]

As far as viewpoints go in this community, your interpretation is extremely rare if not outright unique to you. I fathom your viewpoint and I think you are wrong. If you were right, I would consider that to be a terrible and unsatisfying storytelling choice.

That's ok. I don't mind anyone not sharing the same opinion as I nor do I mistake the likelihood of my opinion being shared by some apparent majority. I don't intend any offense, but it appears to me that these are two things you seem to have trouble with.

If you can believe it, I keep forgetting that you consider the determinant a red herring.

To be fair, it wasn't something that stuck out to me at first either. It was kind of dawned upon in retrospect knowing all the information at hand/having experienced the whole of Sc1. I'm sure, as you say, that the determinant conceit was not actually intended to be a red herring when it was first conceived but that it can be logically and reasonably interpreted that way is what's partly why Sc1 is still interesting to talk about. I have said before that Sc1 has this sense of applicability and this is but one example of that. In comparison, Sc2 (and to some extent BW) is not nearly as "interesting" to me because it lacks this quality (see also Death of the Author).

Pretty much everyone else, including the writers of the games, took the concept at face value.

Well, apparently not since you believe Metzen retconned it during the game story.

Metzen clearly meddled... It is obvious... There was a clear divergence between the manual and the game, which Metzen admitted to in his interview: QoB was added later in development and not an originally planned part of the story.

But this is all debatable. You have failed to convince me and certain others here. This is why your constant generalising/grafting of your opinions over anyone elses and assuming it to be fact rubs people the wrong way.

There really isn't any major inconsistency on a pure, unbiased, objective level. The backstory says the Overmind wanted psionic potential and it got it during the game. That's it. There's no technicality or objective way one can refute that. Sure, you can try and claim Doylist influence as to why it's not correct/intended to be but it's still objectively OK/works on a Watsonian/Death of the Author level.

When given a choice between a fiery angel blasting a cthulhu clone and an army of post-humans clashing against the space elves, I choose the latter.

To each their own.

I thought you were a Zerg fan!

Uh, that would be me. And yes, I do appreciate the irony that despite the Zerg having the crappiest and poorly constructed narrative in Sc1, they are still my favourite.

So humanity just happened to be in the direct path of the Zerg?

Do you consider this a bad thing? The Terrans are not even supposed to be in the K sector, they just randomly happened to be in the wrong spot at the wrong time all because of Doylist contrivance afterall...

The inclusion of the terrans is pointless and stupid without a non-stupid excuse to keep them involved.

Sure, but does this preclude the possibility of it being just a mundane reason? Is the determinant conceit the only option/excuse to have the Zerg attack Terrans? Really, the Zerg could still attack the Terrans because of other strategic reasons since they have resources, are seemingly weak, could provide biomass to fuel their numbers like Tyranid do and have planets that could serve as staging points to launch offensives against their true enemy, the Protoss. Obviously, the Terrans would object to having their territory being taken and would respond. The Protoss would also respond because the Zerg are still invading "lesser" life-forms that they have taken a responsibility for in protecting, with the Terrans responding in kind due to the Protoss' heavy handed methods in "protecting" them.

There is no evidence in the games that the Overmind got what it wanted off-screen.

By that accord, is their any evidence during the game that the Overmind was still wanting its determinant - which was apparently the only preoccupation it had coming into Terran space? Just because it doesn't talk about finding/wanting it determinant in the game doesn't mean that conceit was "forgotten" since that's an argument from ignorance. Could it then perhaps be that the reason it isn't mentioned during the game is that it found what it was looking for? The inference and circumstantial evidence for that supposition is comparatively stronger because the story does feature the Overmind having incorporated and controlling psionic potential from a human.

You really have a thing for arguing against a position by presenting an extremely absurd and unrelated presentation that has no value to the argument other than trying to ridicule what you don't agree with.

I think we call that straw-manning.

[Gradius]

I am referring to changes made to the story during development. The game script is not consistent with the manual or with itself. The earlier version of the story had the Zerg as the main antagonist and humanity as the determinant. The later version of the story had the Xel’naga as the main antagonist and Kerry as the determinant. Metzen decided to adopt the later over the former, but did not completely update the game script to reflect this.

The discrepancy isn't so huge that there's any evidence Metzen just forgot what he was talking about while writing the game. And how are the Xel'Naga the antagonist in SC1?

Really? I thought you were a Zerg fan! So humanity just happened to be in the direct path of the Zerg? The manual explained that the Zerg sent out deep space probes to find new species to assimilate (or exterminate, if deemed worthless), and this was even referenced to explain why the Khalis crystal was on Char, so that is not a believable explanation without more retcons and fanon (and canon is already full of holes). The inclusion of the terrans is pointless and stupid without a non-stupid excuse to keep them involved. The manual’s excuse was contrived, yes, but it was not completely stupid.

Yes, bug monsters assimilate and destroy because that's how they're programmed. That's their whole point: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...OfAlienLocusts

What's so contrived about that?

So the entire Zerg campaign was just Metzen’s wanking off to Kerry? That is mind-bogglingly stupid.

I don't know, have you played it?

There is no evidence in the games that the Overmind got what it wanted off-screen. That is an ad hoc rationalization to explain the various inconsistencies between the game script and the manual resulting from Metzen’s lack of planning and proofreading.

The evidence is that he immediately left the terran core worlds and brazenly launched his invasion of Aiur as soon as he got his chance. Clearly the Overmind didn't care any longer and/or got what he wanted, leaving us to speculate as to exactly what that is. It's literally not a big deal and or talked about in the game, whereas you've been freaking out about it since you got here.

I am tired of arguing. Can we just stop now? We have already made it clear that we will never convince each other of anything and I have already decided to move onto a clone that fulfills my vision of SC should have been.

We'll stop arguing when you stop making definitive statements of fact about subjective topics, while being completely oblivious to other explanations and points of view. This is story writing, not a physics or math paper.