Random Thoughts Thread

[ragnarok]

The certebrates DO acknowledge the Over mind, however, when it chastises Zasz for trying to reign in Kerrigan.

Because they felt she was a loose cannon, VoK. We all saw that even back during the 1st time we were playing the campaign.

[Gradius]

Because they felt she was a loose cannon, VoK. We all saw that even back during the 1st time we were playing the campaign.

Thanks for explaining what nobody disagreed with or was even talking about.

[Turalyon]

I never suggested having the cerebrates bicker, although the sort of false conflict you describe is emblematic of soap operas and sitcoms (the most common entertainment TV today other than "reality" shows). I suggested writing memorable alien villains, and having them act like characters in a melodramatic faux-medieval soap opera/sitcom would leave an impression.

Then I don't see why you would have a problem with it. The Overmind is memorable more because of its affectations than anything else and Kerrigan's presence amongst the Zerg invokes a melodramatic soap opera to occur. Boxes are ticked in that department as far as I'm concerned.

What the zerg add is a whole layer of sapient individuals who, while genetically bound together, have personalities, friendships, rivalries, and even internal politics. For me, the characters are what make the zerg stand out and make them memorable.​

It's interesting he points this out since none of this was apparent in the manual or the game itself nor was it the thing that drew me to the Zerg. That the Zerg are unrelatable and alien in their motivation and approach is their appeal for me. If I wanted my aliens to be human-like in the way he describes, I'd go be a fan of Protoss instead.

As a human being, the two halves of your brain often bicker, do they not? You constantly doubt yourself and wonder whether you should go left or right. You could almost say your emotions have their own personalities, like in that movie Inside Out. That could easily be applied to the Zerg on a larger scale.

And yet you go on to say this:

You are still falling into the trap of thinking of the Zerg hive minds as comparable to human minds when they are not.

You want the Zerg to act like a human-mind but not like a human-mind? Birds depiction isn't that far-off from yours really, it's just that his version is contained within the Overmind (like the reference to Inside Out you put forward) and yours is spread out amongst the cerebrates.

EDIT: My original point still stands. Kerry is not Zerg. She is a Saturday morning cartoon villain.

I don't disagree. She's still memorable to a lot of people though because of that.

One of the interesting parts of the first Zerg campaign was that the Overmind talked to the cerebrates, but the cerebrates never talked back or acknowledged the Overmind.

Huh? Both Zasz and Daggoth name-check the Overmind at least once in the campaign. Zasz even responds directly by saying "By your will, Overmind" when the Overmind reassures Zasz that Kerrigan is intimately bound to it.

The Overmind stated that it deliberately programmed Kerry with that personality, just like it programs all broods

This is contrary to the Overmind's direct statement that "the greatness of her spirit has been left to her; that the Swarms may benefit from her fierce example".

In any case, we are getting ahead of ourselves and losing track of my actual complaint. Since the Zerg are coordinated through an unimaginable (literally) gestalt consciousness, it makes no sense that Kerry would take them over as opposed to being subsumed into the swarm.

Are you talking about Sc1 or BW Kerrigan? Kerrigan in Sc1 only has power that the Overmind allows her to have. She has no more power over the Zerg than any other cerebrate because (paraphrased from the monologue the Overmind gives in the Amerigo) she is intimately bound to the Overmind like any cerebrate and no Zerg can stray from it's will since all that they are lies wholly within it.

[Mislagnissa]

The certebrates DO acknowledge the Over mind, however, when it chastises Zasz for trying to reign in Kerrigan.

Huh? Both Zasz and Daggoth name-check the Overmind at least once in the campaign. Zasz even responds directly by saying "By your will, Overmind" when the Overmind reassures Zasz that Kerrigan is intimately bound to it.

Oh right, I forgot that. They refer to the Overmind in a fashion similar to a god. I am curious at to why that last part is the only instance in the campaign of a cerebrate responding to the Overmind, if only to say "by your will." The Overmind never holds any conversations otherwise, and this is clear example of an internal conflict within the Zerg hierarchy (if briefly). I have always attributed such inconsistencies to the script undergoing rewrites.

Insurrection's Zerg campaign includes another "by your will," and mission 3 contains the only example I have seen of a cerebrate informing the Overmind of battlefield events. I thought this was bizarre and pointless since the Overmind perceives everything its children do.

That's because that's not how it works in StarCraft, even according to the manual. It's some sort of combination of shared consciousness and top-down hierarchy. The Overmind was a semi-sentient being at first because it just represented the drives/instincts of the zerg, but then it developed personality and advanced intellect. It's more than just an emergent phenomena. The Overmind has its own body, and the Overmind, Zasz, Daggoth, are all characters who are given their own biographies in the manual. Emergent phenomena cannot be attacked directly, but the Overmind was killed anyway.

The Overmind was also a "bodiless entity" and claims "all that you [the Zerg and cerebrates] are lies wholly within me [the Overmind]."

These are clear contradictions in the writing. I reconciled them by positing that the cerebrates and the Overmind's "manifest" on Aiur are essentially radio towers and administrator terminals. By hacking them with void magic, one may assault the minds of all Zerg simultaneously. They are not external slave masters as the retcons made them out to be.

In Mass Effect, there are hundreds of geth in any one geth body being downloaded/networked constantly. In StarCraft, the zergling is its own creature who obeys a cerebrate. If you were to wipe out the geth programs, the geth bodies would all shut down, whereas the zergling would just go feral.

This is consistent with my explanation that the cerebrate' consciousness is contained with the brood as whole rather than the brain bug.

The Cerebrates are explicitly secondary agents. They communicate the will of the Overmind to their minions, but they still have their own personalities.

I never claimed otherwise. There is no reason to believe that overlords and queens cannot develop personalities too, since that is the only way to add Zerg characters who are not infested terrans.

Then I don't see why you would have a problem with it. The Overmind is memorable more because of its affectations than anything else and Kerrigan's presence amongst the Zerg invokes a melodramatic soap opera to occur. Boxes are ticked in that department as far as I'm concerned.

I am opposed to the notion of Kerry having any position higher than warrior beast because she is not a giant brain bug. It makes no sense for an infested terran to be elevated to the same status as a cerebrate. She was added simply because Metzen wanted to keep her, in defiance of the Zerg's original backstory.

It's interesting he points this out since none of this was apparent in the manual or the game itself nor was it the thing that drew me to the Zerg. That the Zerg are unrelatable and alien in their motivation and approach is their appeal for me. If I wanted my aliens to be human-like in the way he describes, I'd go be a fan of Protoss instead.

I think UA was including Kerry in the example, since she apparently had the same status and capabilities as a cerebrate. In any case, the cerebrates as characters were underutilized.

You want the Zerg to act like a human-mind but not like a human-mind? Birds depiction isn't that far-off from yours really, it's just that his version is contained within the Overmind (like the reference to Inside Out you put forward) and yours is spread out amongst the cerebrates.

Then I must have gotten confused. Your explanation is correct. I feel having two layers of personalities is redundant and distracting.

In any case, the Zerg will act in ways loosely comprehensible to humans simply because the writers and audience are human. That said, their motivations are sufficiently alien that no amount of human affectation will make them truly human (unlike the Protoss, who are essentially human in every way that matters). For examples of what I am talking about, look no further than Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel in their depictions of demon gods like Glory, Jasmine and Illyria.

This is contrary to the Overmind's direct statement that "the greatness of her spirit has been left to her; that the Swarms may benefit from her fierce example".

This is Metzen's lame excuse for why she is not just another warrior beast. If a writer was writing the cerebrates as the main characters, they would probably act like that anyway. I have always thought Gorn or Kagg would easily fill the same role.

Are you talking about Sc1 or BW Kerrigan? Kerrigan in Sc1 only has power that the Overmind allows her to have. She has no more power over the Zerg than any other cerebrate because (paraphrased from the monologue the Overmind gives in the Amerigo) she is intimately bound to the Overmind like any cerebrate and no Zerg can stray from it's will since all that they are lies wholly within it.

In SC1 it makes no sense for her to be elevated to whatever pseudo-cerebrate position she has, since that contradicts the Zerg's modus operandi in the backstory and she was only introduced because Metzen wanted to keep her in defiance of said backstory. In BW and beyond she has all the powers of a cerebrate and more without explanation, among other plot holes and retcons.

[sandwich_bird]

I am opposed to the notion of Kerry having any position higher than warrior beast because she is not a giant brain bug. It makes no sense for an infested terran to be elevated to the same status as a cerebrate. She was added simply because Metzen wanted to keep her, in defiance of the Zerg's original backstory.

Though I fully agree that they take her powers too far and she should have had clear limits, it was established that she had psi powers equivalent to Anakin force powers as a human. It's not much of a stretch to say that her re-engineering as a Zerg could make her even more powerful. Whether that respects the perceived thematic of the game or not, it still makes sense in-universe that she's able to do some of the things she does. If you want to prove that she can't be a pseudo-cerebrate then you have to prove that her psi powers and the zerg re-engineering are not able to give her the necessary abilities. That is impossible since they're both space magic.

I feel having two layers of personalities is redundant and distracting.

But that's what you end up with either way really. Unless you want to highly diminish the overmind's presence to the point where he's only ever there to remind/enforce the cerebrates to play nice? I'm not opposed to that but that's a very different system than what's shown in game.

[Mislagnissa]

Though I fully agree that they take her powers too far and she should have had clear limits, it was established that she had psi powers equivalent to Anakin force powers as a human. It's not much of a stretch to say that her re-engineering as a Zerg could make her even more powerful. Whether that respects the perceived thematic of the game or not, it still makes sense in-universe that she's able to do some of the things she does. If you want to prove that she can't be a pseudo-cerebrate then you have to prove that her psi powers and the zerg re-engineering are not able to give her the necessary abilities. That is impossible since they're both space magic.

Kerry's powers as a Terran were never established beyond telepathy in the game itself. In Uprising she only displayed a vague Scanners-like ability to kill or brain damage her parents. The rest was added by Retcons and Metzen hamfistedly forcing her into relevance.

But that's what you end up with either way really. Unless you want to highly diminish the overmind's presence to the point where he's only ever there to remind/enforce the cerebrates to play nice? I'm not opposed to that but that's a very different system than what's shown in game.

The Overmind never did much beyond giving orders and exposition. The other characters were the ones who acted and held conversations.

[Gradius]

The Overmind was also a "bodiless entity"

Because it's not confined to any one body and can go back and forth between them. But obviously it has a body, that's how it died.

claims "all that you [the Zerg and cerebrates] are lies wholly within me [the Overmind]."

Like I said, they have a shared consciousness, but are still their own characters. This is kinda elaborated on in Queen of Blades, where Daggoth says he spent tracts of time merged as one with the Overmind, but after the dark templar killed Zasz and the Overmind went silent, Daggoth felt alone.

These are clear contradictions in the writing.

Not really. It seems to be a top-down hierarchy with shared consciousness. But it's clearly not a pure gestalt consciousness. The comparison to the Geth is superficial at best.

I reconciled them by positing that the cerebrates and the Overmind's "manifest" on Aiur are essentially radio towers and administrator terminals. By hacking them with void magic, one may assault the minds of all Zerg simultaneously. They are not external slave masters as the retcons made them out to be.

Ok, but that's not how it works. The zerg didn't stop functioning once the Overmind was taken out, they were freed and went feral. If they were Geth, they would have been shut down and stopped functioning.

This is consistent with my explanation that the cerebrate' consciousness is contained with the brood as whole rather than the brain bug.

But your explanation isn't consistent with the game where we fight zerg that are fully functional whose cerebrate has been destroyed. Literally, the only thing the Cerebrate seems to be doing is giving them orders.

I never claimed otherwise. There is no reason to believe that overlords and queens cannot develop personalities too, since that is the only way to add Zerg characters who are not infested terrans.

Yeah, but Daggoth's personality and brainpower isn't going to take a hit just because his brood gets wiped out. He's his own character, not a gestalt of his underlings.

[ragnarok]

Thanks for explaining what nobody disagreed with or was even talking about.

You know I'm actually still curious on the other Cerebrates' specific POVs regarding her back then....

[Turalyon]

I am curious at to why that last part is the only instance in the campaign of a cerebrate responding to the Overmind, if only to say "by your will." The Overmind never holds any conversations otherwise, and this is clear example of an internal conflict within the Zerg hierarchy (if briefly).

How is this a clear example of internal conflict? Given that their hierarchy innately and ultimately defers all things to the Overmind, it's more reasonable to suggest that there's no internal conflict whatsoever. Zasz's concern about Kerrigan potentially acting outside of the Overmind's will is reasonable in that he serves the Overmind in a specific way and is limited in perspective/cannot see the whole picture. In short, he is not the Overmind. It takes the Overmind to reassure Zasz that Kerrigan is within its control and once Zasz is given that assurance by the Overmind, he tacitly accepts.

Insurrection's Zerg campaign includes another "by your will," and mission 3 contains the only example I have seen of a cerebrate informing the Overmind of battlefield events. I thought this was bizarre and pointless since the Overmind perceives everything its children do.

Well, if you're using that metric (that the Overmind perceives everything its children does), it's even more odd that the Overmind even deigns to speak at all really let alone in antiquated English...

I am opposed to the notion of Kerry having any position higher than warrior beast because she is not a giant brain bug. It makes no sense for an infested terran to be elevated to the same status as a cerebrate. She was added simply because Metzen wanted to keep her, in defiance of the Zerg's original backstory.

This is Metzen's lame excuse for why she is not just another warrior beast. If a writer was writing the cerebrates as the main characters, they would probably act like that anyway. I have always thought Gorn or Kagg would easily fill the same role.

In SC1 it makes no sense for her to be elevated to whatever pseudo-cerebrate position she has, since that contradicts the Zerg's modus operandi in the backstory and she was only introduced because Metzen wanted to keep her in defiance of said backstory.

But she is used only as a warrior beast. A special one for sure, but nothing more. She also doesn't have a position higher than a cerebrate because she is actually under the protection and guidance of the player cerebrate (as specified in the first two missions). The player cerebrate is the one controlling the Zerg - including Kerrigan.

What elevation of status you do see is a superficial one, but one that is justified on a Watsonian level. The Overmind is really the only one that's fawning (if you can call it that) over how special Kerrigan is and for good reason: she exemplifies the illusive determinant that the Overmind was looking for/wanting. Sure, you can rebut on a Doylist level saying it was Metzen who wrote the Overmind into saying that, but that doesn't really counter the fact that the Overmind was always going to fawn over and superficially elevate whomever/whatever was going to be the determinant it wanted anyway. Just because the determinant happened to turn out to be Kerrigan in this case means jack squat really. In other words, the concept/plot device of the "determinant" and the conceits revolving around it is the real issue you should be railing at.

In BW and beyond she has all the powers of a cerebrate and more without explanation, among other plot holes and retcons.

Kerrigan being insanely OP in BW is problematic for sure, but so are the Zerg in general, which flies in the face of them being supposedly crippled by the loss of the Overmind. At least Kerrigan has the conceit/handwave (very poor as it is) of being special/unique/"greatness of her own spirit left to over" to potentially provide an out/reason for her power. The Zerg overwhelming the Protoss on Shakuras on the other hand has no plausible explanation.

[Mislagnissa]

Because it's not confined to any one body and can go back and forth between them. But obviously it has a body, that's how it died.

Its "body" was introduced in the last two Zerg missions as a plot device to explain how the Protoss could defeat the Zerg. Based on the manual's explanation I was under the impression that the Overmind, being literally the amalgamated minds of all Zerg, existed within all Zerg simultaneously like some gigantic parallel processing network. Killing it would require exterminating all the Zerg it is using as hardware, or at least enough of them that its intelligence and memories are lost forever.

Like I said, they have a shared consciousness, but are still their own characters. This is kinda elaborated on in Queen of Blades, where Daggoth says he spent tracts of time merged as one with the Overmind, but after the dark templar killed Zasz and the Overmind went silent, Daggoth felt alone.

I never thought otherwise.

Not really. It seems to be a top-down hierarchy with shared consciousness. But it's clearly not a pure gestalt consciousness. The comparison to the Geth is superficial at best.

I compared them to the Geth, but I did not mean that they operated exactly the same.

Ok, but that's not how it works. The zerg didn't stop functioning once the Overmind was taken out, they were freed and went feral. If they were Geth, they would have been shut down and stopped functioning.

Again, I did not say they functioned exactly like the Geth. The Zerg were not "freed" from the Overmind, they were driven psychotically insane. The feral Zerg have been retconned a few times, but initially I got the impression they went berserk and started attacking each other.

But your explanation isn't consistent with the game where we fight zerg that are fully functional whose cerebrate has been destroyed. Literally, the only thing the Cerebrate seems to be doing is giving them orders.

Again, the feral zerg and the hive mind have been retconned a few times in regards to their level of cohesion. If they are functioning without a brain bug, that is entirely consistent with my explanation since the brain bug is a glorified radio tower rather than their actual consciousness.

Yeah, but Daggoth's personality and brainpower isn't going to take a hit just because his brood gets wiped out. He's his own character, not a gestalt of his underlings.

I already explained that brain bugs were created to serve as dedicated brains and processing centers. I was under the impression that the hive mind needs Zerg like software needs hardware. If his brood is wiped out, what hardware is he running on?

Gradius, I think we are talking past each other. Please explain to me how you think the Zerg hierarchy works, and I will explain how I think it works.

Here is my short essay:

Theory of Zerg Reunion

The natural state of the Zerg is to form packs that coordinate through telepathy (like the Protoss), which was modified to produce a telepathic network or hive mind that unified all packs (like the Khala). The basic hive mind operates by sharing brain function between Zerg through telepathy (not like the Khala), allowing them to act with greater intelligence than they possess individually. This gives rise to a shared consciousness or group mind: the Overmind. The Overmind and the Zerg are one and the same, though this existence is difficult for human beings to comprehend.

The hive mind is naturally decentralized, which is inefficient for coordination. Some Zerg are genetically modified to act as relay stations between packs and given enlarged brains to more efficiently coordinate its own pack. These are cerebrates, or “brain bugs” in military slang. The Zerg developed intelligent breeds to serve as further relay stations, resulting in the overlords, queens and infestors. These command strains would coordinate individual packs, which would collectively form a brood coordinated by one or more cerebrates. All Zerg within a brood share certain genetic modifications, including a behavior bias. This bias leads the brood to pursue a specific directive and modify itself to better fulfill that directive. Through the hive mind, the brood develops a full-fledged personality around this directive. This is standard hierarchy for modern Zerg and ingrained into their genomes.

While cerebrates and overlords may be killed, they are replaceable like any other Zerg. However, their absence will result in a loss of coordination until they are replaced. Because they serve as relay stations to numerous subordinates and share experiences (such as trauma), they may inadvertently act as gateways for simultaneous psychic assaults on their broods. A brood that has been driven psychotically insane by a psychic assault is labeled feral. When a brain bug is so assaulted, this effect is limited only to their immediate brood and its packs. When the Overmind’s proxy (an organism engineered for the invasion of Aiur about which little is known) was so assaulted, all broods were driven feral. Most broods so afflicted will destroy themselves, but those that survive will eventually stabilize and restore themselves to full functionality.

However, a major lingering side-effect is that such a brood is now a renegade: it no longer identifies with other broods and will typically treat them as enemies. It is not in the nature of Zerg to act alone, so these renegades instinctively seek to unite into a greater whole. During the Brood Wars, the broods fought one another with the intent to subsume the others and recreate the Overmind.

Now your turn?

Well, if you're using that metric (that the Overmind perceives everything its children does), it's even more odd that the Overmind even deigns to speak at all really let alone in antiquated English...

It still needs to give the Zerg orders they may pursue without further direction from it, since it cannot coordinate them all at once. Like Gradius suggested, the broods perceive puzzle pieces that the Overmind arranges into the big picture.

In other words, the concept/plot device of the "determinant" and the conceits revolving around it is the real issue you should be railing at.

I thought the determinant was an awesome idea the way it was presented in the manual: human psychics would be assimilated to create new armies just like every other species before them. I take issue with the way Kerry is presented as Zerg Jesus in defiance of everything explained about the Zerg prior to that point.