Random Thoughts Thread

[sandwich_bird]

It kinda depends on whether Kerrigan is aware of/feels Duran as being part of her or for any Zerg really. She's not the Overmind afterall and possible only exerts control over her minions like a puppeteer would. She moves some strings and the puppet behaves as expected but she doesn't really know if that the puppet can move or think on its own?

If that's the case then yeah that wouldn't be too impressive.

They can do whatever things the plot wants from them afterall.

Just like their artifacts

Duran wasn't infested per se but just mind-controlled (or rather "thought-to-be" given his greater status) like Raszagal was.

The unit name in the game is Infested Duran so I'd guess it was the author intention that Duran would be considered infested. I'd have to go with Nolan's explanation. I suppose there could be multiple different types of infestation depending on the goal. Considering what the zergs can do, it's not too much of a stretch.

[ragnarok]

It kinda depends on whether Kerrigan is aware of/feels Duran as being part of her or for any Zerg really. She's not the Overmind afterall and possible only exerts control over her minions like a puppeteer would. She moves some strings and the puppet behaves as expected but she doesn't really know if that the puppet can move or think on its own?

Isn't that simple logic, Tura? A puppet is incapable of moving AT ALL without someone pulling the strings. Amongst the few zerg that DO have sentient thought (after being bound to the hive mind), did they really develop it on their own? Or was it permitted by the master?

Now yes, you can argue that a puppet can cut the strings, but it can only do that if it had independent thought to begin with. Who was the one who granted it independent thought in the first place?

[ragnarok]

Just like their artifacts

The artifact is NOT Deus Ex Machina. This was explained in LotV. Now yes, they probably should have explained it sooner, I'll give you that. Shortly after WoL's release, many had argued that it's stupid of the Xel'Naga to have built it merely for deinfesting Kerrigan, even if they had the ability to see billions of years into the future.

Besides, if it was just for the sake of deinfesting her, we never needed the artifact. After BW, there had been speculation that as the xel'naga temple on Shakuras could kill zerg (and protoss too, hence why they had to take shelter in the temple), it might have been possible to reverse the infestation that way.

The former is the definitive lore answer but that doesn't sit comfortably to me since it's overtly conceited/plot-devicey/Doylist in conception. The latter makes more sense on a Watsonian level. The Overmind didn't really care about the engagements and losses it was incurring in its attempts to get its determinant. It allowed the Protoss to hamper its initial infestation process, was holding its full forces back and was more interested in watching how the Terrans and Protoss would react.

Also, were it not for the Overminds goal of finding a Terran psionic as a determinant, there is no other lore reason given as to why Zerg would even be attracted to Psi-emitters - which are nothing more than Ghost psi-signals writ large and broadcasted - at all.

Then tell me something, Tura: in NCO when the emitters were used again to lure in feral zerg, why was this the case? Do you believe it was simply because those feral zerg were ones that Kerrigan didn't bother taking control of, and therefore were still bound to the Overmind's command to locate a terran psionic? Because then we'd face the problem of why didn't the Overmind change this command, since he didn't need one anymore after Kerrigan.

Of course, you could also argue that he didn't know if Kerrigan would work out or not, hence at the beginning, she was considered expendable, and that's why he didn't alter the command....

[Turalyon]

Could be that the infestation was done more subtly, below the surface and keeping the dermal layer and ocular organs intact. Could also be "infested" with various parasitic organisms rather then grafting and growth of zerg tissue and HEV.

The unit name in the game is Infested Duran so I'd guess it was the author intention that Duran would be considered infested. I'd have to go with Nolan's explanation. I suppose there could be multiple different types of infestation depending on the goal. Considering what the zergs can do, it's not too much of a stretch.

Yeah, but this is yet another thing that bugs me about BW though. Just like the sudden appearance of the Psi-Disruptor and its oh-so-convenient plot relevance, the hitherto unknown but OP ability of Kerrigan being able to mind-control Protoss, this concept about having infested Terrans who don't even look infested and can bypass for normal humans is another contrivance without proper explanation.

It yet again speaks to the OPness of Kerrigan - someone who is supposedly (?) (or rather should be?) lesser than the Overmind but is capable of pulling out these game-breaking tricks out of nowhere. It makes no sense on one hand that we have Kerrigan, who is supposed to be the pinnacle of an infested Terran and yet she looks mutated to say the least, and on the other, we have this specimen in Duran who is also apparently infested but can bypass all scans and fool anyone into thinking he's otherwise human. Sure the conceit is that he's really some other superior being, but that doesn't explain at the Zerg level, how Kerrigan can design such a literally perfect infested terran. If she can make infested terrans look human, why can't she do this to herself? Heck, why not make all infested Terrans like this from now on - they'd make great infiltration specialists? Or is Duran supposed to be a Zerg changling? Who knows how deep this plot hole goes?

A puppet is incapable of moving AT ALL without someone pulling the strings.

The puppet analogy I used was as a metaphor. Duran, or the real human version (if there ever was one to begin with at any rate), was not created/born as a literal puppet!

The artifact is NOT Deus Ex Machina.

But it is a shameless and overt plot device. That's bad enough.

Then tell me something, Tura: in NCO when the emitters were used again to lure in feral zerg, why was this the case? Do you believe it was simply because those feral zerg were ones that Kerrigan didn't bother taking control of, and therefore were still bound to the Overmind's command to locate a terran psionic? Because then we'd face the problem of why didn't the Overmind change this command, since he didn't need one anymore after Kerrigan.

The short answer is: because of Doylist reasons. The slightly longer answer is: because of retroactive continuity that Zerg are innately attracted to psionic signals.

The real and original reason does not apply and is inconsistent with what NCO presents. Also, feral Zerg have no Overmind and are not compelled by its (past) whims.

[ragnarok]

The short answer is: because of Doylist reasons. The slightly longer answer is: because of retroactive continuity that Zerg are innately attracted to psionic signals.

The real and original reason does not apply and is inconsistent with what NCO presents. Also, feral Zerg have no Overmind and are not compelled by its (past) whims.

Why not? You'd think the Overmind's last order would still stand until someone gives them another

But it is a shameless and overt plot device. That's bad enough.

They should have explained the Keystone wasn't unique, at least. This was what Gradius and I talked about in the past: that it's stupid to believe there's only ONE Keystone, given that the chosen races could be on opposite ends of the universe.

[Nolanstar]

Rag, Zerg probably go feral because they rely on a constant psionic connection to a control organism, the order only needs to be issued once and the connection maintains it but the creatures still have some instinct - which likely is what leads to the feral animal behavior, depending on the species the strains brain is modelled after. The fact that we see some feral zerg not butchering each other implies that some overlords can still keep the basic "zerg" tendencies inline, but not really do anything or have a reason to.

[Turalyon]

Why not? You'd think the Overmind's last order would still stand until someone gives them another

Because the Overmind is dead! The Zerg are not mechanical robots that operate/function on programming, they're living creatures that require motivation to pursue whatever it is they want to pursue. The Overmind is the will and motivation behind the Zerg - without it, the Zerg are supposed to be aimless.

They should have explained the Keystone wasn't unique, at least.

That wouldn't have mattered. It'd still be identified as an overt plot-device. The artifact/keystone exists in Sc2 obviously and foremost because of Doylist reasons and there is no amount of Watsonian justification that will make it any less so.

[ragnarok]

That wouldn't have mattered. It'd still be identified as an overt plot-device. The artifact/keystone exists in Sc2 obviously and foremost because of Doylist reasons and there is no amount of Watsonian justification that will make it any less so.

They were trying to explain how the Infinite Cycle works and how it would lead the races to the Xel'Naga, could have gone into better detail though

Rag, Zerg probably go feral because they rely on a constant psionic connection to a control organism, the order only needs to be issued once and the connection maintains it but the creatures still have some instinct - which likely is what leads to the feral animal behavior, depending on the species the strains brain is modelled after. The fact that we see some feral zerg not butchering each other implies that some overlords can still keep the basic "zerg" tendencies inline, but not really do anything or have a reason to.

Going feral is one thing, but it doesn't explain why they were still drawn to the psi-emitters by the time of NCO. Hell, any time after SC1 this shouldn't have worked, so like in the case with Shi, Mengsk's actions shouldn't have succeeded.

[Turalyon]

They were trying to explain how the Infinite Cycle works and how it would lead the races to the Xel'Naga, could have gone into better detail though

Like I said, this wouldn't have made it any less an obvious and shameless plot device. The issue is not about the details surrounding the plot device or lackthereof, it's about how it was used in the narrative.

Going feral is one thing, but it doesn't explain why they were still drawn to the psi-emitters by the time of NCO. Hell, any time after SC1 this shouldn't have worked, so like in the case with Shi, Mengsk's actions shouldn't have succeeded.

The plot-hole about Psi-emitters still attracting Zerg has existed since the BW mission Ruins of Tarsonis where the reason for rescuing Mengsk is so that he can give them Psi-emitters to attract feral Zerg to Kerrigan's cause. This makes no sense since the psi-emitters initial and only primary function was to broadcast Ghost signals as stated in Sc1 The Trump Card. It's also said that the Zerg were found to be attuned (or aware/receptive) to Ghost psionic but not that it directly attracts them. Therefore, we can conclude that the Psi-emitter attracting Zerg is a coincidental effect, not a causal one. The real reason why Zerg are even attuned, let alone become attracted, to Ghosts at all is unknown to the Terrans but the audience should know this through the backstory of the Overmind and the Zerg - it's because the Overmind is looking specifically for a Terran psionic.

That the Zerg are innately attracted to psionics, regardless of whether there's an Overmind, is additive retroactive continuity. Also, even if we were to adopt that retcon, the plot device restriction of needing psi-emitters to attract Zerg in BW is kinda nonsensical since we already have an unrestrained Terran psionic radiating unimaginable power in the form of Kerrigan walking about. A psi emitter shouldn't really be necessary to attract the Zerg.

[ragnarok]

Like I said, this wouldn't have made it any less an obvious and shameless plot device. The issue is not about the details surrounding the plot device or lackthereof, it's about how it was used in the narrative.

There ARE devices in other sci-fi games where it's not fully explained in the first of the series as to what the device really was, the fans didn't call out on it being Deus Ex Machina right after the 1st one in the series.

That the Zerg are innately attracted to psionics, regardless of whether there's an Overmind, is additive retroactive continuity. Also, even if we were to adopt that retcon, the plot device restriction of needing psi-emitters to attract Zerg in BW is kinda nonsensical since we already have an unrestrained Terran psionic radiating unimaginable power in the form of Kerrigan walking about. A psi emitter shouldn't really be necessary to attract the Zerg.

I personally feel this is still something required to boost the swarm's strength. If you read the Shadow Wars comic, you'd know that Niadra tried doing the same thing to Elms (who was a psychic) in order to bolster her forces so she could continue to kill the protoss people. Now, regarding the whole BW matter and the emitters, it's likely that after Kerrigan's assimilation into the swarm (and this is assuming the Overmind never rescinded the matter of psionics searching), the Overmind could have ordered the swarm to ignore Kerrigan's signature.

By the way regarding her power levels, this is also the reason I'm still collecting ideas in order to try to explain it, and not just in a Deus Ex Machina way (granted it'll have to be fanfiction, but still)