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Thread: Random Thoughts Thread

  1. #521
    Sheliek's Avatar Member
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    Default Re: Random Thoughts Thread

    So if I were to ignore SC2 lore (which I am), I could have infested Protoss no problem? I'd differentiate them from Hybrid.

  2. #522

    Default Re: Random Thoughts Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sheliek View Post
    So if I were to ignore SC2 lore (which I am), I could have infested Protoss no problem? I'd differentiate them from Hybrid.
    You'd still have to explain the details, since even the SC1 lore seemed to imply that without the khaydarin crystals, the Overmind couldn't infest or assimilate them

  3. #523

    Default Re: Random Thoughts Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ragnarok View Post
    You'd still have to explain the details, since even the SC1 lore seemed to imply that without the khaydarin crystals, the Overmind couldn't infest or assimilate them
    There is no such implication in Sc1 that the Zerg cannot infest/assimilate Protoss nor that it requires Khaydarin to do so. Just because we see no infested/assimilated Protoss in Sc1 doesn't mean they can't or could never be infested/assimilated (absence of evidence is not evidence of absence).

    The "fact" (which in itself is a retcon) that Protoss can't be assimilated/infested undermines the motivation and actions of the Overmind as demonstrated in the Sc1 manual and game. It's probably this "fact" that ushered in all the other race history retcons that Sc2 introduced in order to justify the presence of Amon.
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  4. #524

    Default Re: Random Thoughts Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ragnarok View Post
    And what were those characters like?
    I have to pretty much write their personalities out of whole cloth since the little material on them does nothing to make them stand out from other protoss characters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sheliek View Post
    Does anyone know the point at which it was established that assimilating protoss is impossible? I don't recall it being mentioned in Brood War-era lore materials, or prior, but I could be misremembering.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    The Creep short story in Frontline. It said assimilating Protoss was impossible normally due to the Khala. And then a qna later on told us the void did the same thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sheliek View Post
    So if I were to ignore SC2 lore (which I am), I could have infested Protoss no problem? I'd differentiate them from Hybrid.
    Quote Originally Posted by ragnarok View Post
    You'd still have to explain the details, since even the SC1 lore seemed to imply that without the khaydarin crystals, the Overmind couldn't infest or assimilate them
    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    There is no such implication in Sc1 that the Zerg cannot infest/assimilate Protoss nor that it requires Khaydarin to do so. Just because we see no infested/assimilated Protoss in Sc1 doesn't mean they can't or could never be infested/assimilated (absence of evidence is not evidence of absence).

    The "fact" (which in itself is a retcon) that Protoss can't be assimilated/infested undermines the motivation and actions of the Overmind as demonstrated in the Sc1 manual and game. It's probably this "fact" that ushered in all the other race history retcons that Sc2 introduced in order to justify the presence of Amon.
    The Blizzard writers cannot keep themselves consistent on whether or not protoss can be infested/assimilated or what the difference is from a hybrid because they do not understand logic. Logically speaking, there is no difference between a protoss/zerg hybrid and an assimilated protoss beyond whether they morph from a larva or not.

    An infested host is a stepping stone to assimilation. They are full of zerg parasites and physically mutilated/mutated, but their genome has not been fully spliced with the zerg's to create a new breed. Originally assimilation involved the infested hosts reproducing, with each generation being progressively refined until they are fully integrated into the zerg swarm. By the time the zerg invaded the Koprulu sector, all reproduction is centralized and accelerated within the hives.

    When the zerg assimilate a species, they splice that species' genome with their own and add it to their library as a new breed which a larva may morph into. The resulting breeds are all, logically speaking, hybrids of zerg and their core genus (and whatever other species donated useful traits). If terrans spliced protoss and zerg genomes in a lab to create a Frankenstein/Moreau-style freak's gallery, those freaks would be hybrids but not zerg breeds. In other words, all zerg breeds are hybrids but not all hybrids are zerg breeds.

    The Overmind implanting itself into Aiur as a giant monster was just a plot device so that it could be killed since Metzen had written himself into a corner by making the zerg immortal and the protoss wimpy. Saying that it needed to do so to assimilate the protoss is just an ad hoc rationalization, since Metzen clearly was making this shit up as he went along. Point of fact, the Overmind's intention to assimilate the protoss is actually a retcon. I explain that in another thread so I won't repeat myself here.

  5. #525

    Default Re: Random Thoughts Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sheliek View Post
    Sennith would be a good name for a Zerg character. I'm planning on incorporating Zargil (with a retconned Brood name to be more fitting the theme) as a minor supporting character in the first Zerg campaign, with his ultimate being just being Kerrigan. Him the three other remaining Cerebrates are hiding outside of the sector, planning to usurp her. Whether they succeed or not I'll leave to the imagination, but one monolithic Zerg force is boring so I had no choice but to undo Blizzard's off-screen extermination of them. Sadly, Daggoth is dead though.

    As for Brood names, say what you will about Broods. The monster theme from StarCraft I was cool and is definitely canon as a Terran classification system, but Heart of the Swarm's "Zagara Brood", "Nafash Brood", and "Naktul Brood" definitely seems like the way the Zerg would've named their broods, as those broods are just the extended sensory and manipulation organs of the broodmothers/cerebrates; they are part of the leaders' bodies. I might use that for the Zerg campaign's method of distinguishing them, but I've already come up with suitably brutish names for brood roles (the Bladerunner Broods are Kerrigans rapid terror force, while the Plaguebringer Broods infest and assimilate their targets; however, a Bladerunner Brood may be known as Cerberus or Minotaur Brood to the Terrans, and a Plaguebringer might be classified as Karkinos or Medusa Brood).
    It makes sense that zerg broods could have multiple names. One that they use to refer to themselves among their own, and the various names given to them by other species like "Cerberus," "Daggerfang" or "Plaguebringer." In Insurrection, for example, the cerebrate Auza is interchangeably referred to as Incubus (the name of its brood).

    I don't think it makes sense for the zerg names to be styled after Sumerian or Hungarian if they communicate telepathically. I think it would make more sense for them to have purely functional names that succinctly describe their general role within the swarm. That is just me, though, and I think naming the broods/commanders after mythical monsters is the coolest option.

    At this point I digress into a rant about zerg immortality and the plot of SC1, again...

    I always found the distinction between zerg commanders and their broods to be needlessly confusing and detrimental to their whole shtick as a hive mind. If Kerry can be retconned into being immortal unless all her backups are destroyed, consistency with the Overmind's and cerebrates' demise be damned, then the same should apply to any other zerg commanders retroactively.

    Retribution depicts cerebrates being killed and eventually replaced like any other zerg unit, albeit at a loss of efficiency until a new one is spawned. I find that vastly more interesting than the contrived immortality/permadeath/deus ex machina plot we got.

    I don't know what was going through Metzen's mind when he wrote that plot, but I can try to construct a model of cause and effect.

    In the SC1 manual, there is no mention of the zerg having any special means of immortality or whatever. They have a group consciousness but that requires them to have sufficient zerg for it to run on, like software on hardware. Presumably the Overmind, and any other bodiless entities among the zerg, cannot exist independently of the zerg and will be destroyed if their bodies are. So calling them "bodiless" is technically false, since their body (or bodies) is actually endless. It is reasonable to assume that the zerg have some kind of racial memory through their hive mind, so that if a cerebrate is killed it may be replaced by another with the same memories and personality. It also reasonable to assume that the protoss could develop psychic attacks against their hive mind and the zerg develop defenses ad nauseam, simply because that is how arms races work.

    When Metzen was writing the game script, he started to depart from this and introduce weird fantasy elements. Cerebrates are immortal because the Overmind resurrects them, then when the dark templar kill one it is permanently dead and the brood goes insane for some reason. The immortality applies to the Overmind, who is now a physical entity (although I have no idea how it would be able to resurrect itself since it would be dead at the time). The protoss find themselves unable to fight the zerg, since Metzen turned them into wimps. The protoss need a deus ex machina to defeat the zerg, so the dark templar were introduced with the ability to kill the zerg leaders and the Overmind was given physical form so it could be defeated. Then in the very next expansion the Overmind is revived from permadeath and in SC2 it is stated that its DNA is in every larva so it could potentially return in a future game.

    I suspect these problems stem from Metzen forcing a galactic war to fit into the very small format of the game engine at the time rather than focusing the campaigns on a very small scale with an open-ending. If SC1 had ended with the fall of Tarsonis, rather than the death of the Overmind, I suspect the rest of the story would have gone very differently.

    Speaking of which, here I go into a tangent on how SC1 could have gone if it ended with the Fall of Tarsonis instead...

    If SC1 limited itself to the time period of Rebel Yell, then I think it could have gone a number of different ways. Instead of plotting the campaigns linearly, they could have taken place concurrently and potentially lead to alternate endings. My following speculations pick up on plot threads from the manual, like Umoja and the Akilae/Ara conflict over humanity's fate.

    In the campaigns took place in sequence, then it could go a number of ways. Rebel Yell could drop the last two missions and replace them with the cut missions, giving it ten missions and ending at the point where the Sons of Korhal activate psi-emitters on Tarsonis against the protests of Raynor and Kerry.

    Overmind could continue from that point, depicting the PC cerebrate as being created to assault Tarsonis and capture psychics. The cerebrate successfully fights off terran and protoss forces and captures the Ghost Academy so the zerg can infest the ghosts there. The zerg intercept Sons of Korhal transmissions, allowing them to overhear the interactions of Raynor, Kerry and Mengsk. Tassadar, having previously communicated at Antiga to offer help evacuating, forms an alliance with the Sons of Korhal to overthrow the evil Confederacy and fight the Zerg. The protoss suffered a schism between the anti-terran Ara and the pro-Terran Akilae, then the dark templar showed up having followed the zerg probes. When Mengsk leaves Kerry to die when the PC assaults their position, the cerebrate captures and infests her before fleeing the planet. The Dominion allies with the Akilae and dark templar factions, making them enemies of the Ara faction. Having captured numerous psychics and the ghost academy, the zerg experiment with terran genomes and deploy new psychic breeds against the terrans and protoss, including Kerry who is the PCs avatar (similar to how other cerebrates have torrasques or invulnerable creep colonies).

    The protoss and terrans experience further alliances and schisms, aggravated by the protoss committing genocide against terran worlds. Mengsk's treachery and hypocrisy tore the Sons of Korhal apart, with some defecting to various factions including Raynor's Raiders. Zeratul and Tassadar team up with Raynor's Raiders to form the Alliance (from the RPG), which intends to overthrow the Dominion with the secret help of Umoja.

    The protoss campaign would open up with Artanis, already in the Koprulu sector, being charged with retrieving Tassadar for trial and exterminating the dark templar. Artanis turns against Aldaris and instead forms an alliance with Tassadar, Raynor and Zeratul to defend the terrans against the zerg. The campaign ends unresolved, leaving open the exciting conclusion for the sequel.

    So that's my rough idea. It's pretty messy since there is so much going on and I really think the story would need a lot more rewriting.

  6. #526

    Default Re: Random Thoughts Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    There is no such implication in Sc1 that the Zerg cannot infest/assimilate Protoss nor that it requires Khaydarin to do so. Just because we see no infested/assimilated Protoss in Sc1 doesn't mean they can't or could never be infested/assimilated (absence of evidence is not evidence of absence).

    The "fact" (which in itself is a retcon) that Protoss can't be assimilated/infested undermines the motivation and actions of the Overmind as demonstrated in the Sc1 manual and game. It's probably this "fact" that ushered in all the other race history retcons that Sc2 introduced in order to justify the presence of Amon.
    Then why DID the Overmind need to work on the Khaydarin crystals? He said it himself that once the protoss were assimilated, the swarm would become perfect (now granted I had expected a little more than just what Duran said in the LotV epoligue that this was merely to create the hybrid, but still). If the swarm could have done it all along, what specific obsession did the Overmind had with the crystals?

  7. #527

    Default Re: Random Thoughts Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ragnarok View Post
    Then why DID the Overmind need to work on the Khaydarin crystals? He said it himself that once the protoss were assimilated, the swarm would become perfect (now granted I had expected a little more than just what Duran said in the LotV epoligue that this was merely to create the hybrid, but still). If the swarm could have done it all along, what specific obsession did the Overmind had with the crystals?
    Bad writing? I was under the impression the zerg already had crystals the whole time, since they ate the xel'naga (who used crystals for everything), explicitly incorporated crystal compatibility into themselves, and had giant purple crystals adorned with skulls in the background of their briefing screens.

  8. #528

    Default Re: Random Thoughts Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    Bad writing? I was under the impression the zerg already had crystals the whole time, since they ate the xel'naga (who used crystals for everything), explicitly incorporated crystal compatibility into themselves, and had giant purple crystals adorned with skulls in the background of their briefing screens.
    Hmm, I felt it's possible the Xel'Naga destroyed the crystals at Zerus to deny them to the zerg. The Overmind therefore only knew their existance on Aiur, but not where Aiur was.

  9. #529
    Sheliek's Avatar Member
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    Default Re: Random Thoughts Thread

    Does anyone know where the term "Kukulza" for hero mutas (and morphs) came from?

  10. #530

    Default Re: Random Thoughts Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ragnarok View Post
    Hmm, I felt it's possible the Xel'Naga destroyed the crystals at Zerus to deny them to the zerg. The Overmind therefore only knew their existance on Aiur, but not where Aiur was.
    Again, bad writing, inconsistencies and author ignorance. The Overmind in the manual knew where Aiur was, precisely enough to burn a path straight to there and eat every world on the way.

    You cannot just shatter crystals and expect that to stop anyone. Crystals are just rocks with molecules arranged in a regular lattice. You can make them in real life artificially with relative ease. In WoL Raynor grows them in his lab. If the zerg know the chemical composition of the crystals they can make their own. If crystals were not renewable then the Protoss would have run out long ago.

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