[Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts

[ragnarok]

In other words, simply being a bad guy doesn't make Kerri simplistic. Her needlessly cruel acts were not needless in her own mind, because her actions were an expression of her anguish at having a past of being nothing more than various people's pawns.

And that's something we see even in real life. If you've been forced to spend way too long under someone else's boot, and that person is a power abuser and everything, it'll cause you to lash out in anger at other people. I've seen it happen. The only thing Blizzard did was take this to a much bigger scale.

This was exactly what happened in Kerrigan's case. After the betrayal on Tarsonis, let's just say she felt humanity was too corrupt and therefore unworthy to survive. Even by the time of HotS it was the case. To her, at least the Raiders made efforts to try toppling Mengsk, whereas everyone else in the Dominion simply stood behind him like a mindless donkey or something. Thus as far as she was concerned, it wasn't her problem if they get caught in the crossfire. After all, she felt her actions would be justified because of their inability to do anything about Mengsk.

You have to remember this is the EXACT same mentality the western allies had towards the Germans when the war ended in 1945, certainly so after the discovery of the concentration camps. To them, the German people as a whole were responsible because they allowed Hitler to carry out such whims, were incapable of checking his perversions, who didn't rise up against him, and who showed indifference to brutality.

The difference here is in the lore, we never really got to see how the Dominion people themselves (on the core worlds) were treated under Mengsk's rule

[FanaticTemplar]

And I disagree again. What it means to him (ignoring SC/BW) is its ability to save Kerri. He's doing it for her, even against the objections of his crew. He's not making decisions about his own life, but rather what he thinks is best for her. Kerrigan also cares and acts about what she wants. Thus, her desires are the real focus here.

You are wrong. This isn't some interpretative thing either, this is stated flat-out in Wings of Liberty, multiple times:

Matt Horner: "Apparently she was something else, before the Zerg took her, turned her into that."
Tychus Findlay: "And Jimmy feels responsible."
~ Queen of Blades

Matt Horner: "What happened to Kerrigan wasn't your fault."
Jim Raynor: "Which part? Where she got left behind? Or where she murdered eight billion people?"
~ Who We Choose to Be

Arcturus Mengsk: "[...] even you've got to realise that treacherous bitch cannot be saved, and neither can you."
~ Dangerous Game

All of it from cinematics in the main plotline too, not any of those subquest branches. What Kerrigan wants doesn't enter into it, at all. Hell, people don't even know what she wanted in Wings of Liberty.

This is pure SC2 retcon. BW Raynor totally gave up on her when Fenix died (and it's crackheaded that he suddenly cared about that again in HotS). Probably already gave up on himself, too, what with losing so much more than just a girl.

No no, remember, it's not your or my perspective that matters. It's Raynor's. Would a man realistically see her as a victim, particularly when he isn't privy to all the information the player gets to see? Also, is Raynor willing to disregard justice for the sake of saving her? While I'd be willing to believe he might go back on his vow to kill her, we have to ask ourselves if he wouldn't allow her to stand trial, or if he was capable/willing to get her if she were captured by others. Kerrigan is guilty of a lot, and he's not going to wisk her away into the sunset. Even if he could disregard his vow to kill her (it would have been delicious if he didn't), their relationship was not a romance, nor was she his only failure.

No. I can corroborate my claims with quotes - from StarCraft and Brood War no less:

Raynor blames Mengsk for everything...
"You mean like you sacrificed Kerrigan?" ~ The Hammer Falls
"Shut up, Arcturus. If I wanted your damn opinion, I would've beaten it out of ya'. And in case you forgot, you're the reason she became what she is in the first place!" ~ The Kel-Morian Combine

... and he blames himself
"Damnit! I shouldn't have let her go alone." ~ The Hammer Falls

I'll also add that Raynor's suicidal need to save her is also established in those games, both in his risking the Dominion and the Swarm based on nothing but dreams of her calling to him from Char in Agent of the Swarm, and in his stupid need to help her against the United Earth Directorate in Queen of Blades despite knowing what she'd become.

Your assertion that he thoroughly changes his character and opinions - conveniently, after he disappears from the game - is completely unsubstantiated.

Also, is Raynor willing to disregard justice for the sake of saving her? While I'd be willing to believe he might go back on his vow to kill her, we have to ask ourselves if he wouldn't allow her to stand trial, or if he was capable/willing to get her if she were captured by others. Kerrigan is guilty of a lot, and he's not going to wisk her away into the sunset.

This is complete nonsense. Trial by whom? Which character doesn't have blood on their hands? Is Raynor not responsible for the deaths of multitudes for his commanding role in the bloody rebellion that put mad dictator Arcturus Mengsk in power? Maybe he should get his original Protoss best friend Tassadar, the eternally revered hero, to judge her. Presumably his responsibility in three Terran planetary genocides - including Mar Sara, Raynor's own planet - would give him great perspective into the crimes of galactic butchers.

Not really. Certainly not equally, in any case.

Not equally, no. And Raynor is the only one to have fallen into a mess of alcoholism and depression countered only by a futile lust for revenge. He is the most thoroughly affected of the characters, which is, as you've just pointed out, exactly what we should expect. So characterisation seems to be spot on.

[Nissa]

You are wrong. This isn't some interpretative thing either, this is stated flat-out in Wings of Liberty, multiple times:

Matt Horner: "Apparently she was something else, before the Zerg took her, turned her into that."
Tychus Findlay: "And Jimmy feels responsible."
~ Queen of Blades

Matt Horner: "What happened to Kerrigan wasn't your fault."
Jim Raynor: "Which part? Where she got left behind? Or where she murdered eight billion people?"
~ Who We Choose to Be

Arcturus Mengsk: "[...] even you've got to realise that treacherous bitch cannot be saved, and neither can you."
~ Dangerous Game

All of it from cinematics in the main plotline too, not any of those subquest branches. What Kerrigan wants doesn't enter into it, at all. Hell, people don't even know what she wanted in Wings of Liberty.

Okay, fine, I phrased it wrong. Raynor is still obsessed with her throughout the game, and considers her stuff priority over his own interests, or the interests of his men. She's not on screen, but she's the focus.

No. I can corroborate my claims with quotes - from StarCraft and Brood War no less:

So? While Raynor certainly knows she's been victimized, and he does blame himself, neither of those are my points. He doesn't see her as a victim, because he's seen what she's become. It's way past victimhood now, and she has become something evil. You can't cite him rescuing her on Char as a reason, because that was before Kerrigan did anything as a Zerg. That, and him supporting her in BW was always done with suspicion. And is something of a plot hole -- at some point he really should have realized that killing humans to make the Zerg stronger so that they could kill more humans is pretty dumb. As is, Raynor didn't trust her even then. Nor is there the slightest evidence Raynor cared about her romantically. That, and he was bound to find out what Kerrigan did to the Protoss.

What all that boils down to is this: It's freaking stupid to have Raynor romantically interested in a mutated, selfish, manipulative violent mass murderer.

This is complete nonsense. Trial by whom? Which character doesn't have blood on their hands? Is Raynor not responsible for the deaths of multitudes for his commanding role in the bloody rebellion that put mad dictator Arcturus Mengsk in power? Maybe he should get his original Protoss best friend Tassadar, the eternally revered hero, to judge her. Presumably his responsibility in three Terran planetary genocides - including Mar Sara, Raynor's own planet - would give him great perspective into the crimes of galactic butchers.

I was using trial as a hypothetical, in the sense that Raynor might have felt that Kerrigan deserved to face her crimes. It has nothing to do with anyone else's crimes, or the larger philosophic questions. People can't make pragmatic decisions on that sort of thing. Pragmatically speaking, the major human governments and Protoss might forgive each other in the interest of surviving. Politics! Read about Yalta sometime. In any case, while what you're saying here is important, it's more important for historians in the K Sector's future rather than people currently having to choose between bad and worse.

Not equally, no. And Raynor is the only one to have fallen into a mess of alcoholism and depression countered only by a futile lust for revenge. He is the most thoroughly affected of the characters, which is, as you've just pointed out, exactly what we should expect. So characterisation seems to be spot on.

Eh...not really. People aren't just one characteristic. I mean, that would be acceptable if he were a background character, but Raynor's up front. He has more than one issue going on. That, and they didn't go far enough with his major depression. It would've been great if he were on the edge of despair, and the people around him had to support him and save him from his severe depression.

While Blizz did remember the depression, they didn't remember that it's unrealistic for Raynor to love Kerrigan. They also made him kill 'Toss for money (he didn't immediately know that the Tal'darim were bad) and spout generic "heroic" dialogue. Gone is the redneck we know and love. Though, to be fair, they didn't mangle him as bad as Zeratul.

[DarthYam]

Did you see the thread where we were talking about Kerrigan's motivations? I can't remember which one that was. In any case, in it, we'd discussed how Kerrigan was acting in BW in a way that would allow her to remain outside Overmind control as well as satisfy her sick desires for revenge. We also pointed out how there was a difference between how Kerri treated people who had personally affected her, and those that were simply in her way. She was willing to let Mengsk and Zeratul live, because torturing them was more fun than simply killing them off. Aldaris and DuGalle, on the other hand, were just people in the way, and she disposed of them quickly.

In other words, simply being a bad guy doesn't make Kerri simplistic. Her needlessly cruel acts were not needless in her own mind, because her actions were an expression of her anguish at having a past of being nothing more than various people's pawns.



Again, that's not how the story was presented. Raynor was acting in a way that gave Kerrigan what she wanted, and Kerrigan was making her own choices to achieve what she alone wanted. Clearly she's a bigger driving force in the plot than good ol' Jimmy boy.

It doesn't make sense. In Rebel Yell she opposes using the zerg even on the people who made her life miserable for a decade (the confederacy had her between 8 and 18 years old). She went along with Antiga prime because that was on soldiers (but even than she feels dirty) and on tarsonis she didn't know until Duke activated them (implying she wouldn't have supported it if Mengsk told her before hand) even then she only goes along with it because she still naively thinks Mengsk will do the right thing in the end.

In BW she just goes over the top in making Zeratul and the toss suffer even though they didn't do anything. That's what I mean when Kerrigan is a comic villain. She enjoyed the act of hurting fenix and razsegal and twisting the knife in. The idea that she would just decide that hurting people was fun after getting infested and free is just.....stupid.

[NikoMyCousin]

In BW she just goes over the top in making Zeratul and the toss suffer even though they didn't do anything. That's what I mean when Kerrigan is a comic villain. She enjoyed the act of hurting fenix and razsegal and twisting the knife in. The idea that she would just decide that hurting people was fun after getting infested and free is just.....stupid.

And that, Zeratul, is a better revenge than I could've ever dreamed of

Kerrigan in BW and Wings of Liberty had quotes that didn't even make sense. What did Zeratul do to her or the Zerg for there to be revenge?

[Visions of Khas]

Kerrigan in BW and Wings of Liberty had quotes that didn't even make sense. What did Zeratul do to her or the Zerg for there to be revenge?

To explain Kerrigan's role and personality in HotS, I've gone with the theory that she's been an abused and neglected child her entire life without any sense of agency. Finally, she is given extraordinary power and freedom, with all inhibitions erased by the Zerg. From a twisted perspective such as hers, the simple act of defiance deserves retribution.

[FanaticTemplar]

Okay, fine, I phrased it wrong. Raynor is still obsessed with her throughout the game, and considers her stuff priority over his own interests, or the interests of his men. She's not on screen, but she's the focus.

Right, but she's just the driving element. She's like the One Ring and Raynor is Frodo. The story's not actually about the Ring, but about the decisions and journey Frodo makes because he came into possession of it.

So? While Raynor certainly knows she's been victimized, and he does blame himself, neither of those are my points. He doesn't see her as a victim, because he's seen what she's become.

So? If your dog gets rabies and needs to be put down, then it needs to be put down, but you don't start hating it.

You can't cite him rescuing her on Char as a reason, because that was before Kerrigan did anything as a Zerg.

I cited that as precedent for putting himself and his crew in ridiculous danger out of a desperate need to assuage his guilt.

Nor is there the slightest evidence Raynor cared about her romantically.

Sure there is, but even if you want to believe there wasn't, romance has pretty much no importance to the story of Wings of Liberty.

What all that boils down to is this: It's freaking stupid to have Raynor romantically interested in a mutated, selfish, manipulative violent mass murderer.

But it's not stupid at all to have him be romantically interested in an idealised fantasy of a woman who was taken away from him by cruel betrayal. She's the one Raynor is trying to get back, he's certainly not interested in the genocidal maniac Queen of Blades in Wings of Liberty.

I was using trial as a hypothetical, in the sense that Raynor might have felt that Kerrigan deserved to face her crimes. It has nothing to do with anyone else's crimes, or the larger philosophic questions. People can't make pragmatic decisions on that sort of thing. Pragmatically speaking, the major human governments and Protoss might forgive each other in the interest of surviving. Politics! Read about Yalta sometime. In any case, while what you're saying here is important, it's more important for historians in the K Sector's future rather than people currently having to choose between bad and worse.

No, what I'm saying is very simple: Raynor was best buddies with the guy who committed planetary genocide multiple times and killed pretty much everyone Raynor knew on Mar Sara. And Tassadar wasn't possessed at the time. This whole "Kerrigan did things that were WRONG and Raynor should never be able to forgive her!" thing is completely absurd.

Eh...not really. People aren't just one characteristic. I mean, that would be acceptable if he were a background character, but Raynor's up front. He has more than one issue going on. That, and they didn't go far enough with his major depression. It would've been great if he were on the edge of despair, and the people around him had to support him and save him from his severe depression.

No it wouldn't. Seriously, one man's battle against crippling depression handled in a realistic way is not the story for any kind of RTS wargame. And it certainly doesn't fit with the story of the original games.

[ragnarok]

To explain Kerrigan's role and personality in HotS, I've gone with the theory that she's been an abused and neglected child her entire life without any sense of agency. Finally, she is given extraordinary power and freedom, with all inhibitions erased by the Zerg. From a twisted perspective such as hers, the simple act of defiance deserves retribution.

That's how it always works in real life. When you've been abused your whole life and then suddenly turned loose, you go crazy with power right away, and that can take years to fix, sometimes it's not even fixable.

- - - Updated - - -

In BW she just goes over the top in making Zeratul and the toss suffer even though they didn't do anything. That's what I mean when Kerrigan is a comic villain. She enjoyed the act of hurting fenix and razsegal and twisting the knife in. The idea that she would just decide that hurting people was fun after getting infested and free is just.....stupid.

Not that, DarthYam. This is what happens when you go through a life of abuse. You tend to lash out at others, even those who never once wronged you, simply because you now have the power to do something about it. Going crazy with power happens a lot in this case, I've seen it happen in real life.

[Nissa]

Right, but she's just the driving element. She's like the One Ring and Raynor is Frodo. The story's not actually about the Ring, but about the decisions and journey Frodo makes because he came into possession of it.

Again, that's not how it was presented. Kerrigan motivated WoL, turned HotS into a romance novel, and stole the show from the Protoss by becoming the Xel'Naga. Let's face it. Though other characters were used, it was all about Kerri here.

So? If your dog gets rabies and needs to be put down, then it needs to be put down, but you don't start hating it.

I question the appropriateness of comparing a rabid dog to a murderous woman. Also, clearly Raynor hated her in BW. If you can't see that, well, there's nothing I can do.

I cited that as precedent for putting himself and his crew in ridiculous danger out of a desperate need to assuage his guilt.

Okay. Still a Kerri driven story.

Sure there is, but even if you want to believe there wasn't, romance has pretty much no importance to the story of Wings of Liberty.

Not true. Raynor's behaviors and the way people reacted to his gloom about Kerri indicates that he was shown to have feelings for her. I would say nothing on the matter if HotS hadn't turned into a romance novel, but in hindsight it's pretty obvious that the two were being set up that way.

On the other hand, WoL was pretty scatterbrained, so not much of anything was of any importance. Especially since none of Raynor's actions other than getting the artifact and de-infesting Kerrigan had any affect at all on the later games. Seriously, there wasn't even any consequences for that whole Mengsk controversy thing.

But it's not stupid at all to have him be romantically interested in an idealised fantasy of a woman who was taken away from him by cruel betrayal. She's the one Raynor is trying to get back, he's certainly not interested in the genocidal maniac Queen of Blades in Wings of Liberty.

I honestly don't believe he could ever see her that way again. Not least because their relationship in SC was never romantic, so there's no foundation for falling in love with an illusion. Moreover, I hate how his characterization is suddenly all about her. In SC/BW, he was a guy desperately trying to get things right, only to make mistake after mistake. Imo, he's been so burnt by now that I don't think Raynor would trust much of anyone, besides possibly Protoss. It's not merely about being burned by Kerri, but also Mengsk and the Confederacy. He lives in a world where near about everything is against him. That's so interesting, and is almost entirely ignored.

No, what I'm saying is very simple: Raynor was best buddies with the guy who committed planetary genocide multiple times and killed pretty much everyone Raynor knew on Mar Sara. And Tassadar wasn't possessed at the time. This whole "Kerrigan did things that were WRONG and Raynor should never be able to forgive her!" thing is completely absurd.

1. Tassadar was repentant. Kerri was not.
2. Tassadar was chaotic in his pursuit of good. Kerri was violent in her pursuit of personal goals.
3. Tassadar restrained himself despite his orders. Kerri relished in punishing her enemies.
4. Tassadar showed himself eager to change when confronted with new ideas. Kerri wants what she wants, damn the consequences.
5. Tassadar and Jim were buds, and not people forced into an artificial relationship.

That, and forgiving a person is entirely different from falling in love with them. I could buy that Raynor might forgive her if it were under credible circumstances. I will never accept that Raynor would then choose to love her, or so much as trust her, ever again.

No it wouldn't. Seriously, one man's battle against crippling depression handled in a realistic way is not the story for any kind of RTS wargame. And it certainly doesn't fit with the story of the original games.

Oh, it totally could. I was just talking about his base persona there, anyway. He starts the game in a slump, but bigger circumstances force him to come out of the bar and try to trust himself again. Raynor is always driven by what he thinks is good, but his past should have scarred him into thinking he'd just make horrible mistakes again. But then the Zerg, Mengsk, or maybe hybrids start acting up, and Raynor is forced to accept the failures of his past and move forward. Or, alternatively, he starts getting serious about his vow to kill Kerrigan, and he accumulates power over time to finally finish the job. So long as competent details are added, it could have worked.

Though note that I'm also assuming that the gameplay wouldn't revolve solely around Jim. SC2's focus on one central character really killed a lot of plot potential, compared to SC1.

[FanaticTemplar]

Again, that's not how it was presented.

Yes, it was. I've already given you the quotes. Kerrigan does practically nothing of interest in Wings of Liberty.

I question the appropriateness of comparing a rabid dog to a murderous woman.

Well, yeah. But comparing her to a woman getting possessed by an alien isn't really a metaphor so much as a description.

Also, clearly Raynor hated her in BW. If you can't see that, well, there's nothing I can do.

Yeah, that's all in your head. The characterisation is entirely consistent with all of Raynor's character throughout StarCraft and Brood War. If you think he turned around completely after he left the game, that's not actual canon.

Not true. Raynor's behaviors and the way people reacted to his gloom about Kerri indicates that he was shown to have feelings for her.

Nah, Tychus just interpreted it wrong because he can't imagine a man and a woman being close without sex being involved, and Matt was just angry and calling her his 'girlfriend' in a "if you like her so much why don't you marry her?' kind of taunt.

On the other hand, WoL was pretty scatterbrained, so not much of anything was of any importance. Especially since none of Raynor's actions other than getting the artifact and de-infesting Kerrigan had any affect at all on the later games. Seriously, there wasn't even any consequences for that whole Mengsk controversy thing.

That's still a whole lot more consequences than Brood War.

I honestly don't believe he could ever see her that way again. Not least because their relationship in SC was never romantic, so there's no foundation for falling in love with an illusion.

Your vision of a world where there were no romantic feelings between Raynor and Kerrigan in StarCraft is a mystifying one.

Moreover, I hate how his characterization is suddenly all about her. In SC/BW, he was a guy desperately trying to get things right, only to make mistake after mistake.

Are you kidding? Raynor's entire involvement in Brood War revolved around Kerrigan. And not in that weird way you think she was the centre of Wings of Liberty, either. Just straight up helping her with all of her plans out of some desperate denial of what she'd become.

1. Tassadar was repentant. Kerri was not.

Kerrigan was plenty repentant after she got deinfested. Tassadar was "repentant" in the sense that he literally says "Whatever leniency I extended to you and your comrades before, may have been in error.". He believes he was not harsh enough with the Terrans.

2. Tassadar was chaotic in his pursuit of good. Kerri was violent in her pursuit of personal goals.

"Planetary genocide because I was told to" is less "chaotic" and more "Neuremberg defense".

Of course, if you want to go the route where this was necessary to prevent the Zerg apocalypse, it also bears mentioning that his decision to abandon that method directly lead to the creation of the Queen of Blades.

3. Tassadar restrained himself despite his orders. Kerri relished in punishing her enemies.

Kerrigan spared Raynor and his men, despite the Overmind's orders.

4. Tassadar showed himself eager to change when confronted with new ideas. Kerri wants what she wants, damn the consequences.

Kerrigan actually changed.

5. Tassadar and Jim were buds, and not people forced into an artificial relationship.

"Hey, are you the guy who wiped out my planet? Let's develop a natural relationship based on that! Not like this artificial notion of "falling for a coworker", who ever heard of anything stupid like that?"

That, and forgiving a person is entirely different from falling in love with them. I could buy that Raynor might forgive her if it were under credible circumstances. I will never accept that Raynor would then choose to love her, or so much as trust her, ever again.

Wait, wait, you forgot one!

6. Tassadar was acting of his own free will, Kerrigan WAS POSSESSED BY EVIL ALIENS.

Oh, it totally could. I was just talking about his base persona there, anyway. He starts the game in a slump, but bigger circumstances force him to come out of the bar and try to trust himself again. Raynor is always driven by what he thinks is good, but his past should have scarred him into thinking he'd just make horrible mistakes again. But then the Zerg, Mengsk, or maybe hybrids start acting up, and Raynor is forced to accept the failures of his past and move forward. Or, alternatively, he starts getting serious about his vow to kill Kerrigan, and he accumulates power over time to finally finish the job. So long as competent details are added, it could have worked.

...

That's the story of Wings of Liberty.