[Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts

[Nissa]

No, that's actually what I meant. If in Brood War they gave her ultimate perceived freedom and yet she was still a prisoner of her fears and deeds and wounds, there's nowhere further to take that character arc. At least, as far as I can perceive. She's done. So either you take a new perspective, or you remove her from the story, and that's why I say I would have liked her riding off into the sunset with Raynor at the end of Wings of Liberty: the happy ending - and the journey - aren't hers there, they're Raynor's.

I disagree that there's nothing that can be done with the arc. Quite the opposite, actually. There's a choice for her, Zerg or human, and her vacillations as she attempts to choose a side -- or perhaps she ignores the choice entirely. There's forty bajillion directions for this to go in. Mental entrapment is a whole 'nother beast from being externally controlled. It's the theme of getting what you wished for, only to find out that it didn't make you happy at all. Just taken to an extreme because of the fact Kerrigan has affected so much of the K Sector. That screams plot potential.

You do have a point when it comes to Raynor's story. Unfortunately, fact of the matter is, SC2 wasn't Raynor's story. Even in WoL he's primarily driven by saving Kerri -- moping for her, allying with a potential enemy to save her, killing a friend to save her, etc. Now, if they'd written it more to the degree that Raynor's role in the story had more real importance, rather than him just doing whatever it took to get Kerri to the places the plot wanted her, then I might see what you were saying.

Of course, your statement presumes Raynor's version of a happy ending is spending it with Kerrigan. Even if their relationship had been established as a romance in SC1, what she's done since then ultimately destroys any love a realistic character would have for her. It's entirely possible that a happy ending is out of Raynor's reach, given his alcoholism and depression. The only real happy ending he could have is one where the pain in his heart could be healed in some way. And that's not merely a matter of having a girl -- dude has lost his original home, been betrayed by Mengsk, failed to save Kerri, and watched most of his Protoss friends die. Any real man who'd gone through all that is bound to feel like garbage. Serious PTSD. A major thing that pisses me off about SC2 is that they fail to show the extent of Raynor's extremely likely disillusion with life.

[ragnarok]

I interpreted Kerrigan's actions as genuinely deciding to spare the civilians because it was right. I've said elsewhere that after Umoja she's basically obsessed with revenge and will do whatever it takes to get it. After getting called out and forced to admit she shitting on Raynor's memory she starts to analyze what she's doing. When Raynor rejects her she finally realizes just how selfish and myopic she's been and tries to do what's right. If Kerrigan had just steamrolled civilians and fallen into Mengsk's trap Raynor would've left her to her fate. Because she chose the harder but morally correct choice she Raynor saved her. Heart was really the weak link in the trilogy.

But as I saw it, it was still only for Raynor's sake. If Raynor HAD died, she could have cared less what happened to the people of Korhal. She endorsed Valerian as the new Dominion leader and allowed the Dominion to survive because she realized if she still refused to change from what she's been doing, then it would only prove Raynor's efforts had been a complete waste because in the end she had learned NOTHING.

[DarthYam]

I disagree that there's nothing that can be done with the arc. Quite the opposite, actually. There's a choice for her, Zerg or human, and her vacillations as she attempts to choose a side -- or perhaps she ignores the choice entirely. There's forty bajillion directions for this to go in. Mental entrapment is a whole 'nother beast from being externally controlled. It's the theme of getting what you wished for, only to find out that it didn't make you happy at all. Just taken to an extreme because of the fact Kerrigan has affected so much of the K Sector. That screams plot potential.

You do have a point when it comes to Raynor's story. Unfortunately, fact of the matter is, SC2 wasn't Raynor's story. Even in WoL he's primarily driven by saving Kerri -- moping for her, allying with a potential enemy to save her, killing a friend to save her, etc. Now, if they'd written it more to the degree that Raynor's role in the story had more real importance, rather than him just doing whatever it took to get Kerri to the places the plot wanted her, then I might see what you were saying.

Of course, your statement presumes Raynor's version of a happy ending is spending it with Kerrigan. Even if their relationship had been established as a romance in SC1, what she's done since then ultimately destroys any love a realistic character would have for her. It's entirely possible that a happy ending is out of Raynor's reach, given his alcoholism and depression. The only real happy ending he could have is one where the pain in his heart could be healed in some way. And that's not merely a matter of having a girl -- dude has lost his original home, been betrayed by Mengsk, failed to save Kerri, and watched most of his Protoss friends die. Any real man who'd gone through all that is bound to feel like garbage. Serious PTSD. A major thing that pisses me off about SC2 is that they fail to show the extent of Raynor's extremely likely disillusion with life.

Except that Kerrigan's behavior made no real sense. She was a complex figure in 1. In brood war she's a two dimensional villain who almost always commits needlessly cruel acts of sadism on both mengsk and the protoss (who never wronged her aside from tassadar out playing her, meaning her reaction was disproportionate at BEST). In Brood War she wasn't deep. A more logical explanation is similar to charles whitman (The guy who killed 32 people in texas in 1966. Whitman had a tumor in the part of the brain that controlled fear and rage. While he still made his choices the tumor made it easier to embrace the darkness within. Something could happen with Kerrigan (The infestation amplified things like rage and fear, suppressed things like empathy and kindness, while Amon's taint redirected her anger into something cold blooded and sadistic rather than flaming wrath.)

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Also the entire point of WOL is Raynor overcoming his cynicism and giving a shit again. Blizzard stated that the original intent was that Raynor did want to kill Kerrigan. When Valerian presented him with the very real chance that the artifact could give her her humanity back (and thus allow rehabilitation) Raynor had to choose between being cynical and being hopeful. Ultimately he was sick of living in despair and chose to consider the possibility that kerrigan was savable

[ragnarok]

Also the entire point of WOL is Raynor overcoming his cynicism and giving a shit again. Blizzard stated that the original intent was that Raynor did want to kill Kerrigan. When Valerian presented him with the very real chance that the artifact could give her her humanity back (and thus allow rehabilitation) Raynor had to choose between being cynical and being hopeful. Ultimately he was sick of living in despair and chose to consider the possibility that kerrigan was savable

Except he was struggling with how to live with himself if he did, because he still blamed himself for what happened on Tarsonis. Then when Zeratul came along and told him about the prophecy and not to do it, it tore Raynor up even more because he didn't know just WHAT he was supposed to do. This conflict continued all the way until Valerian explained what the artifact might be able to do to.

[Turalyon]

She was a complex figure in 1.

Not really. All we see of Kerrigan in Sc1 is Rebel Yell. Even then, it's not much. She's loyal to Mengsk despite doubting him until she then becomes lost to the Zerg. There's nothing more to her since all the stuff that occurs later as Infested Kerrigan don't really count because she's under the control of the Overmind. If she's not herself in BW due to infestation making her crazy/Amon corrupted, then she must be clearly even more "not herself" when the Overmind was still around.

Blizzard stated that the original intent was that Raynor did want to kill Kerrigan. When Valerian presented him with the very real chance that the artifact could give her her humanity back (and thus allow rehabilitation) Raynor had to choose between being cynical and being hopeful. Ultimately he was sick of living in despair and chose to consider the possibility that kerrigan was savable

I sometimes wonder if the story in WoL would've hit harder had they/Valerian not revealed the artifact would give Kerrigan her humanity back - that it just would've killed Zerg and that was it. It would've helped sell the idea that Raynor still wanted to kill Kerrigan to keep continuity of before and it would've made that last cinematic with Raynor's killing Tychus more impactful because up until he actaully goes to protect Kerri, you wouldn't know if he actually would've done it or not.

[ragnarok]

I sometimes wonder if the story in WoL would've hit harder had they/Valerian not revealed the artifact would give Kerrigan her humanity back - that it just would've killed Zerg and that was it. It would've helped sell the idea that Raynor still wanted to kill Kerrigan to keep continuity of before and it would've made that last cinematic with Raynor's killing Tychus more impactful because up until he actaully goes to protect Kerri, you wouldn't know if he actually would've done it or not.

It would have left Raynor to wallow in his despair even more. As I see it, this would make things easier for Tychus to convince him to kill her. This was somewhat explained in the interviews WAY back when WoL was out, but before we got any info for HotS. Tychus had basically been convinced that in the end, Raynor would get over it because he would understand Kerrigan died years ago on Tarsonis. Yes in the short term he'd be devastated, but he'd understand it was for the best. And this remained Tychus's mentality even by the beginning of "All In", because no one knew if the artifact would really work or not. However if we go by what you said and if Valerian never revealed that, I believe the first thing Raynor would do is ask Dr. Hanson (if she's still aboard the Hyperion) to study the artifact a bit more, and see if it's possible to kill the Zerg in her, but at the same time leave the human part intact. The problem is that I don't think she would have been able to give him an answer. As far as Hanson was concerned (if she's still aboard the Hyperion), she would easily come to the conclusion that the artifact was designed to kill Xel'Naga creations, but leave non-Xel'Naga creations alone. There's absolutely no way to tell what it would do in a hybrid case like Kerrigan's.

[Turalyon]

It would have left Raynor to wallow in his despair even more. As I see it, this would make things easier for Tychus to convince him to kill her.

Not sure about Raynor "wallowing in despair even more" since he already feels and knows that Kerrigan can't be saved and is not expecting a solution to be realistically possible. Part of his ongoing malaise in WoL is that in addition to feeling some guilt and shame at not being able to help Kerri back then, he can't even get any sort of closure by killing the monster she has become due to a strict inability to do so. The reveal that the artifact would be just an effective anti-Zerg weapon would therefore galvanise Raynor to still pursue ending Kerrigan since he never had a good opportunity such as this before and it'd be cathartic for him/be a form of (dark) redemption for allowing himself to be tricked.

The unforeseen deinfestation that occurs would then give Raynor a second opportunity for redemption but in a much more potentially positive note. He doesn't necessarily need to protect her from Tychus at that point if he has become fully embittered and cynical (as he pretends to be) but that he actually does protect her from Tychus in the end would then be seen as the climax of Raynor's regaining his positive outlook again.

This way, the majority of the story would keep a stronger continuity with what came before in BW, allow for more sustained tension in the story (since once Valerian reveals Kerrigan can be deinfested in the WoL we got, everyone knows exactly that Raynor will protect Kerrigan from dying if given the chance) and gives more weight to Raynor's decision to protect Kerrigan from Tychus.

[Nissa]

Except that Kerrigan's behavior made no real sense. She was a complex figure in 1. In brood war she's a two dimensional villain who almost always commits needlessly cruel acts of sadism on both mengsk and the protoss....

Did you see the thread where we were talking about Kerrigan's motivations? I can't remember which one that was. In any case, in it, we'd discussed how Kerrigan was acting in BW in a way that would allow her to remain outside Overmind control as well as satisfy her sick desires for revenge. We also pointed out how there was a difference between how Kerri treated people who had personally affected her, and those that were simply in her way. She was willing to let Mengsk and Zeratul live, because torturing them was more fun than simply killing them off. Aldaris and DuGalle, on the other hand, were just people in the way, and she disposed of them quickly.

In other words, simply being a bad guy doesn't make Kerri simplistic. Her needlessly cruel acts were not needless in her own mind, because her actions were an expression of her anguish at having a past of being nothing more than various people's pawns.

Also the entire point of WOL is Raynor overcoming his cynicism and giving a shit again. Blizzard stated that the original intent was that Raynor did want to kill Kerrigan. When Valerian presented him with the very real chance that the artifact could give her her humanity back (and thus allow rehabilitation) Raynor had to choose between being cynical and being hopeful. Ultimately he was sick of living in despair and chose to consider the possibility that kerrigan was savable

Again, that's not how the story was presented. Raynor was acting in a way that gave Kerrigan what she wanted, and Kerrigan was making her own choices to achieve what she alone wanted. Clearly she's a bigger driving force in the plot than good ol' Jimmy boy.

[FanaticTemplar]

I disagree that there's nothing that can be done with the arc. Quite the opposite, actually. There's a choice for her, Zerg or human, and her vacillations as she attempts to choose a side -- or perhaps she ignores the choice entirely.

That's not the same arc though. I did say you could go in different directions.

You do have a point when it comes to Raynor's story. Unfortunately, fact of the matter is, SC2 wasn't Raynor's story. Even in WoL he's primarily driven by saving Kerri -- moping for her, allying with a potential enemy to save her, killing a friend to save her, etc. Now, if they'd written it more to the degree that Raynor's role in the story had more real importance, rather than him just doing whatever it took to get Kerri to the places the plot wanted her, then I might see what you were saying.

Completely disagree. Raynor in Wings of Liberty is driven by Kerrigan the same way he's driven by the Xel'naga Artifact, it's only relevant for what it means to him. It's what Raynor feels about it, what he's willing to do for it, and how that shapes his relationship with the other characters.

Of course, your statement presumes Raynor's version of a happy ending is spending it with Kerrigan. Even if their relationship had been established as a romance in SC1, what she's done since then ultimately destroys any love a realistic character would have for her.

Not at all. Kerrigan's the victim, Raynor blames Mengsk for everything. And himself. Which is a major part of the issue. He can't give up on Kerrigan without giving up on himself. Which he sort of has at the beginning of the series, also coinciding with the period where he thought he'd have to kill her. When he gets a chance to save her is when he gets more driven, but also more desperate and single-minded.

It's entirely possible that a happy ending is out of Raynor's reach, given his alcoholism and depression. The only real happy ending he could have is one where the pain in his heart could be healed in some way. And that's not merely a matter of having a girl -- dude has lost his original home, been betrayed by Mengsk, failed to save Kerri, and watched most of his Protoss friends die. Any real man who'd gone through all that is bound to feel like garbage. Serious PTSD. A major thing that pisses me off about SC2 is that they fail to show the extent of Raynor's extremely likely disillusion with life.

That goes for every character in the series though.

I sometimes wonder if the story in WoL would've hit harder had they/Valerian not revealed the artifact would give Kerrigan her humanity back - that it just would've killed Zerg and that was it. It would've helped sell the idea that Raynor still wanted to kill Kerrigan to keep continuity of before and it would've made that last cinematic with Raynor's killing Tychus more impactful because up until he actaully goes to protect Kerri, you wouldn't know if he actually would've done it or not.

Not sure that would've been enough for Raynor to consider allying with a Mengsk, though.

[Nissa]

That's not the same arc though. I did say you could go in different directions.

We're talking in terms of potentia, here. I'm just discussing my ideas for what I think Kerrigan's fate should be. Feel free to mention your own.

Completely disagree. Raynor in Wings of Liberty is driven by Kerrigan the same way he's driven by the Xel'naga Artifact, it's only relevant for what it means to him. It's what Raynor feels about it, what he's willing to do for it, and how that shapes his relationship with the other characters.

And I disagree again. What it means to him (ignoring SC/BW) is its ability to save Kerri. He's doing it for her, even against the objections of his crew. He's not making decisions about his own life, but rather what he thinks is best for her. Kerrigan also cares and acts about what she wants. Thus, her desires are the real focus here.

But I'll grant you that Raynor's motivations are pretty wonky in WoL. His attention is divided between earning cash, starting a rebellion, rescuing civilians, and all the Kerri drama. While the Kerri stuff was his primary focus, his disjointed, truncated efforts in the other three areas (he didn't take down Mengsk's government or create a replacement, the rescuing thing was awkward because of the strange way Blizz treated the plot choice, and he didn't actually earn much in the way of cash) meant that his own personal activities were essentially sacrificed so that he could have the chance to go save his Zerg lady. All that other stuff was plot filler; excuses for players to have certain types of missions. As opposed to Kerrigan's activities, all of which ultimately led up to her fate in LotV.

Not at all. Kerrigan's the victim, Raynor blames Mengsk for everything. And himself. Which is a major part of the issue. He can't give up on Kerrigan without giving up on himself. Which he sort of has at the beginning of the series, also coinciding with the period where he thought he'd have to kill her. When he gets a chance to save her is when he gets more driven, but also more desperate and single-minded.

This is pure SC2 retcon. BW Raynor totally gave up on her when Fenix died (and it's crackheaded that he suddenly cared about that again in HotS). Probably already gave up on himself, too, what with losing so much more than just a girl.

No no, remember, it's not your or my perspective that matters. It's Raynor's. Would a man realistically see her as a victim, particularly when he isn't privy to all the information the player gets to see? Also, is Raynor willing to disregard justice for the sake of saving her? While I'd be willing to believe he might go back on his vow to kill her, we have to ask ourselves if he wouldn't allow her to stand trial, or if he was capable/willing to get her if she were captured by others. Kerrigan is guilty of a lot, and he's not going to wisk her away into the sunset. Even if he could disregard his vow to kill her (it would have been delicious if he didn't), their relationship was not a romance, nor was she his only failure.

That goes for every character in the series though.

Not really. Certainly not equally, in any case. Raynor, more than any other character, has had a complete line of failures. He couldn't save Mar Sara, his anti-Confederacy actions ended up putting a tyrant on the throne, he couldn't stop Kerrigan from becoming infested, and his actions in BW ultimately helped Kerri get what she wanted while tearing down humanity at the same time. The only real positive to his career is his help in defending Aiur, and that planet was ultimately lost. He then couldn't save Fenix, and was at that point powerless to perform his vow to kill Kerri.

The only character that comes close in that regard is Zeratul, who is responsible for helping the Zerg find Aiur and killing the second Overmind for Kerri. He, however, has motivation to go forward in investigating the hybrids. Mengsk is a psychotic optimist, and is only at the end of BW realizing that he needs to get serious. He's still got power left to fight on, and his optimism has only taken a hit. Aldaris always stubbornly refused to believe in his own ineffectivity, whether he had a right to or no. Artie boy is still youthful and stubborn enough to trust in the Protoss without bitterness. Fenix is the definition of soldiering on. Raszagal could accept her death with hope for the future. Stukov is pragmatic and not as emotionally vulnerable as Raynor.

SC2 aside, of course.