[Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts

[Gradius]

Exactly. Kerrigan only ever being a pawn gets boring after a while. It feels like Warhammer in that it's grim for the sake of being grim. And in it's own way seeding life (which is what Kerrigan is implied to be doing) for the sake of seeding life is heroic. You don't have to be recognized in order to be a hero. Heroes should be heroes regardless of the reaction they receive. If someone's only been a chewtoy their whole life it gets boring as shit.

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Kerrigan suffered executional problems in the current trilogy but the idea of her overcoming her inner demons, working to achieve redemption and having at the very least a bittersweet ending is fine.

What's the obsession with "seeding life" as some sort of atonement? In no way does that bring all the people she's killed back or actually atone for her crimes. A serial killer shouldn't be allowed to get out of jail by doing community service.

Being given infinite power and immortality as a "punishment" for mass murder is absurd. It's like electing Jeffrey Daumer as President of the United States of America so that he can finally be in a position to do some good in order to get out of jail. Kerrigan should have been executed in front of a jury after her actions in HoTS.

My point is that there really is no karma and rejecting a history that does not apply this system of cosmic retribution, because only reflects the personal moral and applied effects to a character. in a real context the villain can have a happy ending, the hero of the most horrible destinations

In a real context, Raynor wouldn't have been in love with a mass murderer. In a real context, Artanis wouldn't bow down to someone who razed entire planets in the last game just to get revenge on one guy. In a real context, multiple characters would have called her out for her crimes and taken issue with her being given even more power given her complete and utter lack of restraint or judicious use of power. A benevolent being like Ouros sure as hell shouldn't have been ok with that.

Again, it's not about grim dark or treating Kerrigan like shit just because. It's about the lack of realism in an already fantastical setting.

[KaiserStratosTygo]

My point is that there really is no karma and rejecting a history that does not apply this system of cosmic retribution, because only reflects the personal moral and applied effects to a character. in a real context the villain can have a happy ending, the hero of the most horrible destinations



it is difficult if you focus on the fantasy of power

But take the case of Enoch, the myth / legend that instead of dying the way with God, and transcended, the mightiest angel Metatron became. But the nature of an angel, although his power is the loss of free will and are basically defined by their responsibility depending on the will of God, the human common things would cease to mean the same thing. like the simple things that give us happiness

A similar case is the story of Evangelion humanity transcending just joining a collective entity, Sinji reject this phenomenon, planting questions, as the value of self, our limitations, and the beauty of the little we have, when we can all , the limits of your personality vanishes.

For Kerrigan has been taken to the center of the wheel of life cycle universe and had the risk of being consumed by this responsibility, the way she and Jim is living is a mystery, we do not know if Jim was abducted on an idyllic fantasy if Kerrigan really has been released this responsability. abandon a normal life should not be taken lightly. Jim as a more of mysterious disappearances, never to be seen again, leaving a vacuum and uncertainty, but it is still a happy ending, though a bit melancholic

She has no resposnbilities thought, she's free to do as she pleases.

So, no you're not going to get me to believe that having ultimate pretty much unrestricted power is something for the person that holds it to mope about.

There's little I would do if such a thing existed in real life and I was able to attain it.

"My point is that there really is no karma and rejecting a history that does not apply this system of cosmic retribution, because only reflects the personal moral and applied effects to a character. in a real context the villain can have a happy ending, the hero of the most horrible destinations"

The Villain not only is not treated as such but gets everything they wanted, and I don't think they intended for it to be some "look this is realism" sort of thing but because they wanted their favorite pet sue to get off 100%

" but if Kerrigan had spent HOTS and LOTV busting ass trying to make amends I wouldn't object."

I would've been fine too, I was willing to accept a hard earned redemption after WoL, but HotS was like "nope, this is our favorite mary sue and she'll be able to do any and everything, end all be all, alpha-omega and be two contradictory things at once!"

[ragnarok]

Too right! Being absolved scot-free and taking no responsibility is too easy an out for her, as is just having her straight-up killed as punishment for her sins. Given that her crimes are to do with her selfishly getting things her way, her redemption and reward for it should not involve the same thing of selfishly getting something that ultimately improves her lot. The reward should be the act of doing something good and not expecting/getting anything in return. Anything more than that threatens to make them too perfect and idealised. I guess that's why the epilogue is often criticised because it makes Kerrigan into a Mary Sue/turns the whole affair into what looks like fanfic.

And the fact that it's not proven if she's really the one doing the seeding on the worlds.

If she really was and Blizzard said that, that's another story. But even then it still won't change anything. There'd still be plenty of people who want revenge.

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Rag, I don't really care how people see me, i'm going to be the same exact asshole I was yesterday and every day before.

Which isn't smart.

[ragnarok]

Exactly. Kerrigan only ever being a pawn gets boring after a while. It feels like Warhammer in that it's grim for the sake of being grim. And in it's own way seeding life (which is what Kerrigan is implied to be doing) for the sake of seeding life is heroic. You don't have to be recognized in order to be a hero. Heroes should be heroes regardless of the reaction they receive. If someone's only been a chewtoy their whole life it gets boring as shit.

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Kerrigan suffered executional problems in the current trilogy but the idea of her overcoming her inner demons, working to achieve redemption and having at the very least a bittersweet ending is fine.

Yes but I think for a lot of people the problem here is this only happened at the very end, as in that only in the epilogue and everything did she finally begin to look beyond herself. For a lot of people, they would say that this is far too late for her to do anything that can even remotely resemble redemption. Even if she really DID die in the battle against Amon, people might still have criticized it because she didn't suffer enough for the past actions.

I agree with your point about the recognition point. The purpose of the hero is mainly just to ensure the safety of others, not because they want a reward of out all this.

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You can claim that Kerrigan's fate was unrealistic, but it was certainly unsatisfying, for a number of reasons. Indeed, the bitterness of her position only comes from the fact she might not be able to see Raynor ever again (I still maintain that the ghost at the end was Nova), which was a complete retcon, and has nothing to do with her SC1 incarnation. Sure, sometimes people who are horrible get away with good-ish fates, but Kerrigan's fate isn't merely her own. There are tons of people who feel raw about her and what she's done, so the genuine disgust players feel for the positivity of the ending is a realistic reflection of the disgust all the in-game characters might feel upon hearing that their greatest enemy became a Xel'Naga. At the very least, Artanis should be pissed as all hell.

I had expected the Protoss people to have begun making plans in hoping to locate her again for their own version of justice. That was another flaw in LotV in that Artanis forgave her way too easily without her having to do anything.

No. I think that if a character only ever goes through the wringer its hard to care about them. I believe that Kerrigan should pay some price but also feel that if she truly works at it she can potentially earn a happy ending. I'm somewhat discontent since she could have worked harder, but if Kerrigan had spent HOTS and LOTV busting ass trying to make amends I wouldn't object.

But the problem is that's not what happened. Millions of people still died in HotS because she wanted revenge on Mengsk. Granted the industrial worlds were necessary, but that's not how others would view it. Plus she should have at least tried to help the terrans rebuild or something, otherwise as shown in LotV, it left the Dominion completely defenseless against Amon's forces.

What's the obsession with "seeding life" as some sort of atonement? In no way does that bring all the people she's killed back or actually atone for her crimes. A serial killer shouldn't be allowed to get out of jail by doing community service.

Being given infinite power and immortality as a "punishment" for mass murder is absurd. It's like electing Jeffrey Daumer as President of the United States of America so that he can finally be in a position to do some good in order to get out of jail. Kerrigan should have been executed in front of a jury after her actions in HoTS.

Then you can start hoping that at some point down the road she'll understand (or learn from Raynor) to give that power up

[drakolobo]

In a real context, Raynor wouldn't have been in love with a mass murderer.

I'm certainly sure that you know, that people are irrational when the word love is at stake. people in love justifies the actions of people. People fall in love with bad people all the time, and turn their heads in the word redemption.
Jim certainly has an ideal justification if he blame her for the crimes when she has infestation He was being an idiot .

Jim was will revenge too, just when Kerrigan returned to normal wanted to forget
In fact the main motivators of jim has revolved around Kerrigan, abandonment Arcturus for kerrigan, he risk people for Kerrigan in Tarsonis and char. The morality of Jim, is gray in points.
certainly all raynor behavior is realistic

In a real context, Artanis wouldn't bow down to someone who razed entire planets in the last game just to get revenge on one guy.

Artanis is certainly quite rational, He is allied with alarak someone who openly manipulated.

Artanis judges the now, not the past, the first reaction was Artanis Kerrigan attack. When he realized the difference the queen of blade and kerrigan primal,his hostility declined.

Kerrigan did not differ all to Jim Raynor and both was to take revenge, he risked his crew killed and soldiers of the domain for kill to arturus. Kerrigan also behavior changes once their revenge end .
artanis kneeling by a religious component, is not kneel before Kerrigan, kneels by the phenomenon of ascension basically the end of a cycle and the beginning of another associated with the divinity xelnaga

In a real context, multiple characters would have called her out for her crimes and taken issue with her being given even more

ja for that this work of Selendis ( Selendis likes to remember the mistakes of others) and Amon (during the ascension say Kerrigan can be counterproductive, certainly Jim trusts in kerrigan and others are trusts in Ouros, being a xelnaga

power given her complete and utter lack of restraint or judicious use of power. A benevolent being like Ouros sure as hell shouldn't have been ok with that.

certainly if I could accept it, would give credibility to the election of Ourus,is a xelnaga like good god, he knows what he does.
also helps that she is only a woman who just wanted to avenge against a tyran and now more stable and working vs extinction, when I see on the horizont a universal genocidal god
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[DarthYam]

What's the obsession with "seeding life" as some sort of atonement? In no way does that bring all the people she's killed back or actually atone for her crimes. A serial killer shouldn't be allowed to get out of jail by doing community service.

Being given infinite power and immortality as a "punishment" for mass murder is absurd. It's like electing Jeffrey Daumer as President of the United States of America so that he can finally be in a position to do some good in order to get out of jail. Kerrigan should have been executed in front of a jury after her actions in HoTS.


In a real context, Raynor wouldn't have been in love with a mass murderer. In a real context, Artanis wouldn't bow down to someone who razed entire planets in the last game just to get revenge on one guy. In a real context, multiple characters would have called her out for her crimes and taken issue with her being given even more power given her complete and utter lack of restraint or judicious use of power. A benevolent being like Ouros sure as hell shouldn't have been ok with that.

Again, it's not about grim dark or treating Kerrigan like shit just because. It's about the lack of realism in an already fantastical setting.

The seeding life shows that she's doing the opposite of what she's done her whole life. Now she's creating life rather than destroying it. Kerrigan actually did start to change for the better after the "Believe in me" scene. She had no reason to believe jim would ever forgive her (in fact she's shocked when he does show up to help her). I agree that Kerrigan should have worked more to earn redemption but I think that spending millennia creating life and restoring barren worlds is a step in the direction.

The real problem is that in Heart the crew wanted her to be vengeful warrior and conflicted anti hero at the same time. As such it was a mess.

[KaiserStratosTygo]

The seeding life shows that she's doing the opposite of what she's done her whole life. Now she's creating life rather than destroying it. Kerrigan actually did start to change for the better after the "Believe in me" scene. She had no reason to believe jim would ever forgive her (in fact she's shocked when he does show up to help her). I agree that Kerrigan should have worked more to earn redemption but I think that spending millennia creating life and restoring barren worlds is a step in the direction.

The real problem is that in Heart the crew wanted her to be vengeful warrior and conflicted anti hero at the same time. As such it was a mess.

" did start to change for the better after the "Believe in me""

She seems pretty much the same to me, only wanting Raynor's D a bit more I guess.

[ragnarok]

" did start to change for the better after the "Believe in me""

She seems pretty much the same to me, only wanting Raynor's D a bit more I guess.

It only shows in the end she cannot do it without him.

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The seeding life shows that she's doing the opposite of what she's done her whole life. Now she's creating life rather than destroying it. Kerrigan actually did start to change for the better after the "Believe in me" scene. She had no reason to believe jim would ever forgive her (in fact she's shocked when he does show up to help her). I agree that Kerrigan should have worked more to earn redemption but I think that spending millennia creating life and restoring barren worlds is a step in the direction.

The real problem is that in Heart the crew wanted her to be vengeful warrior and conflicted anti hero at the same time. As such it was a mess.

Same here. As I saw it, Kerrigan had expected that even by agreeing to Valerian's request in the last HotS mission, Raynor would interpret it as just another manipulation, as she had done so in the past.

HotS suffered the inconsistency matter. Either made her vengeful OR try to get redemption. Usually when you try to mix the two, it satisfies no one

[DarthYam]

It only shows in the end she cannot do it without him.

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Same here. As I saw it, Kerrigan had expected that even by agreeing to Valerian's request in the last HotS mission, Raynor would interpret it as just another manipulation, as she had done so in the past.

HotS suffered the inconsistency matter. Either made her vengeful OR try to get redemption. Usually when you try to mix the two, it satisfies no one

I interpreted Kerrigan's actions as genuinely deciding to spare the civilians because it was right. I've said elsewhere that after Umoja she's basically obsessed with revenge and will do whatever it takes to get it. After getting called out and forced to admit she shitting on Raynor's memory she starts to analyze what she's doing. When Raynor rejects her she finally realizes just how selfish and myopic she's been and tries to do what's right. If Kerrigan had just steamrolled civilians and fallen into Mengsk's trap Raynor would've left her to her fate. Because she chose the harder but morally correct choice she Raynor saved her. Heart was really the weak link in the trilogy.

[FanaticTemplar]

Hm, I'd say that an executional problem -- it depends on how it's written. But some people are more free by being restrained. For example, Kerri, at the end of Brood War, is a slave to her own passions. And since at that point she's technically accomplished her goals, she has no future. Neither does she have friends, a career, a love, or anyone around besides mindless monsters. She's even stuck in a place where there's no art, architecture, theaters, shops, restaurants, or beach resorts. There's nowhere to go. Kerrigan's "free" and has power, but she really has nothing at all.

But hey, I'm open to other endings. Anything realistic with clear implications for both Kerrigan and everyone else works. Heck, I wish SC2 was less focused on her. That way her character wouldn't have been stretched beyond believability and she'd still have character potential. My main point is that Kerri should just have an ultimate fate that isn't things ending well for her, or her and Jimmy running off into the sunset. Gag.

No, that's actually what I meant. If in Brood War they gave her ultimate perceived freedom and yet she was still a prisoner of her fears and deeds and wounds, there's nowhere further to take that character arc. At least, as far as I can perceive. She's done. So either you take a new perspective, or you remove her from the story, and that's why I say I would have liked her riding off into the sunset with Raynor at the end of Wings of Liberty: the happy ending - and the journey - aren't hers there, they're Raynor's.