[Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts

[FanaticTemplar]

Unfortunately, we can't consider deus ex machinas as an aside since it was also BW that established that such things can exist to stop the OP Zerg and are within the capability of Terrans to develop (ie: Psi Disruptor). Win some, lose some.

Kerrigan also knows that Mengsk has the artifact (the EU novel Flashpoint reveals this) and that there's no assurance the Zerg will accept her back, so there's the possibility of Kerrigan herself thinking it may be unreasonable going down the Zerg path. Then again, she's got a screw loose up there so she probably won't know what's unreasonable anymore anyway.

Unfortunately, it's in the nature of deus ex machinas to come out of nowhere, and therefore cannot be planned for. If you want to "prepare for the unexpected", then such a thing is as viable whether you go the assassination route or the Zerg invasion route, and therefore does not tip the balance either way and can be dismissed from these considerations.

Also the games' story should be able to stand on their own, so I can't accept arguments drawn from the novels .

Great, that means Mengsk would be assured to give some worthwhile resistance and tension to the story when Kerrigan the Ghost engages him. Compared to the foregone conclusion that HotS was by going the Zerg route...

Remember, if you're going with out-of-story explanations, then this ends immediately with the fact that it's an RTS .

Anyways, Mengsk's established defences are not that crash-hot since a non-Ghost army like Raynor's Raiders can infiltrate Korhal without being noticed until they cause a ruckus and then still escape scot-free. Given the upheaval that Media Blitz should've caused/implied to have caused (it's hard to say what effect it really had...), Mengsk's Dominion could've easily been written to have been weakened sufficiently enough for Kerrigan's infiltration as a Ghost to succeed.

Getting into a city is not the same as getting to the Emperor. I could get into Washington DC, but I probably still couldn't assassinate the president.

I never really felt the desperation you speak of. If there was something that evoked desperation and the Zerg feeling like her only recourse, I would gladly accept it but there's none to be had. All we have is the revenge angle and that's too weak on it's own to support her decision to go to the Zerg. If there was a choice, I would've preferred it if she felt compelled to willingly chose the Zerg rather than due to desperation since that'd give room for a different and new exploration of the character (my fanon HotS had Kerrigan re-join the Zerg because she ultimately realises she's a monster and deserves to be part of the Zerg because of that).

You get no desperation from this?

Seems to me that "jumping in being a do-gooder" whilst being supposedly drunk and depressed yet still things turning out really swell qualifies as "protagonist succeeding because he's the protagonist".

Same goes with any protagonist. Antagonists also succeed because they're antagonists, up to the point where it conflicts with the former. You'll have to be clearer though, I thought we were discussing Kerrigan's motivations and choices, not her narrative function.

Don't know why you're comparing with Mengsk - I was comparing Kerrigan's "evil" with Tassadar's "evil" and saying the former's worse. Kerrigan's selfishness makes her irresponsible. She should know better that her actions would cause collateral damage but she continues to do it because she feels she has to, damned be the consequences. It's that or she doesn't care about the consequences. Either way, it's a form of chaotic evil.

I'm not 'comparing' her with Mengsk, I'm wondering why you feel that Mengsk's soldiers lives are so sacrosanct. We've seen Mengsk targeting civilians - not collateral, deliberate targeting - and his soldiers are the ones doing the deed. It's not like they don't know about Mengsk either, after Media Blitz. Yet they must be allowed to continue indefinitely, because it's chaotic evil for one of their victims to fight back against them? That's nonsense.

Do you really think that only uninvolved, neutral parties should be allowed to overthrow murderous despots? Let's contextualise this. Arcturus only became anti-Confederate after his family was murdered - yes, he turned out evil, but is that the reason? - Jim Raynor only turned against the Confederates after he was arrested for trying to save his fellow colonists, He only turned against Arcturus when his love interest/super best platonic friend forever was killed because of Mengsk - not when Mengsk genocided a planet. Do you think they're all chaotic evil for being personally motivated?

No but the jury's out on Duke though. It's hard to know whether he truly knows what's going on with the Zerg and the Confeds but I get the impression that he's kept in the dark. Since Duke is the one that assigns the Magistrate, I'm interpreting that he is somewhat civic minded even if it's just him following rules by the book.

Wait, Duke appointed the Magistrate?

Duke also only stops Raynor when he destroys Confed property not when killing the numerous Zerg creatures and Creep colonies lying about. One could interpret that as Duke just using that as a cover excuse to arrest people who attack Zerg cos he secretly knows about the Zerg and doesn't want them harmed because of orders or that he's just that by-the-book and officious when he sees Raynor destroying Government property. It's hard to tell.

If he were that dutiful, I don't think he'd have been that easy to convert to the Sons of Korhal, certainly not in the way he was.

Huh? So what you're saying is that she's not fighting enough Protoss? She is still fighting a formidable amount of Protoss, plus some unexpected Protoss with different powers.

Like I said, the motivation/problem hasn't changed or not changed in a significant manner.

How can you say that? It's a problem that did not exist at the time.

But you seem to conflate "coherent" with your opinion that "Kerrigan must go to Aiur when the Overmind does". The Overmind invaded Terran worlds to get psionic abilities to fight Protoss in the hope of beating them - there's nothing about the motivation that specifically states Kerrigan has to go to Aiur with the Overmind when it does.

Leaving Kerrigan on Char did not successfully beat the Protoss, evidently.

This is the situation as we have it:

OVERMIND: I can see no way of defeating the Protoss.
KERRIGAN: What about me?
OVERMIND: You shall become my means of defeating the Protoss.
DAGGOTH: The Protoss have a new, unexpected weapon against us.
OVERMIND: Use Kerrigan to counter it while we go defeat the Protoss.
DAGGOTH: I thought we needed Kerrigan to defeat the Protoss?
OVERMIND: I have no idea what you're talking about.

[Nissa]

Leaving Kerrigan on Char did not successfully beat the Protoss, evidently.

This is the situation as we have it:

OVERMIND: I can see no way of defeating the Protoss.
KERRIGAN: What about me?
OVERMIND: You shall become my means of defeating the Protoss.
DAGGOTH: The Protoss have a new, unexpected weapon against us.
OVERMIND: Use Kerrigan to counter it while we go defeat the Protoss.
DAGGOTH: I thought we needed Kerrigan to defeat the Protoss?
OVERMIND: I have no idea what you're talking about.

I think I mentioned this before somewhere else, but there's no evidence Kerrigan was specifically engineered for use against the Protoss. The manual states that the Zerg wanted genetic material for psychics, and the game also states during the Terran missions that the Zerg wanted psychics. There's no proof that:
(a) They needed Kerrigan specifically
(b) They only grabbed Kerrigan
(c) They needed their subject(s) to directly fight the Protoss

The ultimate goal of the Zerg in getting psychics appeared to be gain the genetic background it needed to get a foothold in understanding how to combat the Protoss. They needed to study psychic genetics, and they got that simply by assimilating psychics -- after all, Sons of Korhal would have no way of knowing the Zerg need psychics if the Zerg hadn't grabbed any at all by that point. While Kerrigan's infestation is probably related to this matter, there's no evidence of the Overmind's specific goals for her. Actually, the Overmind's loose hand in controlling her possibly indicates that keeping Kerrigan is more of an experiment than a firm part of a certain plan.

[Gradius]

I'm wondering just how many "innocent lives" were destroyed by Tassadar. If you play SC1, it makes it clear the protoss razed the planet only when it was already way too late.

"Thirteen hours after the evacuation of Mar Sara, Protoss warships took up orbit around the colony and unleashed a massive planetary bombardment."

And then Antiga was razed after zerg had already been called to it en-masse by psi emitters. Only the manual paints a different picture for Chau Sara, but even then, the zerg were spawning units on that world and we can assume it was already screwed.

I'm not 'comparing' her with Mengsk, I'm wondering why you feel that Mengsk's soldiers lives are so sacrosanct. We've seen Mengsk targeting civilians - not collateral, deliberate targeting - and his soldiers are the ones doing the deed. It's not like they don't know about Mengsk either, after Media Blitz. Yet they must be allowed to continue indefinitely, because it's chaotic evil for one of their victims to fight back against them? That's nonsense.

Some of them are brainpanned, but more importantly, they're individuals. Not everyone in the army is evil. According to the lead writer, Mengsk holds on to power "With a mix of brutality, incredible intrigue, and old-fashioned cunning. Mengsk's empire at the time of Heart of the Swarm is by no means secure, but he is crafty and has many mechanisms to hold on to power."

It's not really the people's fault for being unable to overthrow a tyrannical despot.

[Nissa]

I'm wondering just how many "innocent lives" were destroyed by Tassadar. If you play SC1, it makes it clear the protoss razed the planet only when it was already way too late.

"Thirteen hours after the evacuation of Mar Sara, Protoss warships took up orbit around the colony and unleashed a massive planetary bombardment."

And then Antiga was razed after zerg had already been called to it en-masse by psi emitters. Only the manual paints a different picture for Chau Sara, but even then, the zerg were spawning units on that world and we can assume it was already screwed.

That's a good point. Part of the trouble is, the humans wouldn't know anything, as the Confederates were hiding their activities on the outer worlds. Thus, most people found out about the Protoss when they blew up worlds, while having no reference for the Zerg.

[Turalyon]

Unfortunately, it's in the nature of deus ex machinas to come out of nowhere, and therefore cannot be planned for. If you want to "prepare for the unexpected", then such a thing is as viable whether you go the assassination route or the Zerg invasion route, and therefore does not tip the balance either way and can be dismissed from these considerations.

But the Psi Disruptor is not an unexpected DEM anymore by the time Sc2 begins, so Mengsk could've designed another one in the years he was building up his Dominion again cos he knew the Queen of Blades was gonna come for him. If not that, one could just say he spent all those 4 years building up defences against a Zerg attack and neglected to defend himself against Terran attacks. It's not that unreasonable to think that since it certainly explains why Raynor was able to get so far as he did landing on frickin Korhal despite not being even trained as a Ghost, having an army tagging along with him and being supposedly at his "worst" from the start of WoL.

Also the games' story should be able to stand on their own, so I can't accept arguments drawn from the novels .

Yeah, I hung my head in shame at having to use that as a reference. Either way, Kerrigan knows that the artifact is out there somewhere (either under Valerian or Mengsk's Snr) and could cripple her since anyone would use it against her immediately if she ever tried to use the Zerg again.

Remember, if you're going with out-of-story explanations, then this ends immediately with the fact that it's an RTS .

Looks like they intended it as an RPS (role-playing strategy) since the focus was always about the Kerrigan character being the important unit on the board. The same philosophy would've applied better if the story was about her being Ghost than it was about using the Zerg.

Getting into a city is not the same as getting to the Emperor.

It's a big deal if Raynor is supposed to be the number 1 terrorist on their list. Some security force the Dominion have for not spotting Raynor earlier, I mean if they can't do that, how can I expect them to stop Kerrigan, who'd be even better at infiltrating places?

I could get into Washington DC, but I probably still couldn't assassinate the president.

I wouldn't expect you to since you don't have superpowers or the training to back up a pathological need for vengeance against the president.

You get no desperation from this?

Heart-breaking possibly, but desperation, no.

You'll have to be clearer though, I thought we were discussing Kerrigan's motivations and choices, not her narrative function.

We're talking about Raynor succeeding largely when he shouldn't because the in-universe reason is that he's "just that good". It's why Valerian wants to recruit him. If that is so, we can attribute this and use it as justification for Kerrigan's chances of taking the Ghost route. She shouldn't really succeed but she can because she's really "just that good".

I'm not 'comparing' her with Mengsk

Well, I was comparing - but only Kerrigan and Tassadar.

I'm wondering why you feel that Mengsk's soldiers lives are so sacrosanct. We've seen Mengsk targeting civilians - not collateral, deliberate targeting - and his soldiers are the ones doing the deed. It's not like they don't know about Mengsk either, after Media Blitz. Yet they must be allowed to continue indefinitely, because it's chaotic evil for one of their victims to fight back against them? That's nonsense.

I'm thinking more of the moral responsibility of one's particular actions or inactions that can affect others. If it is potentially unnecessary and reasonably avoidable to taking other lives (whoever those other people are) in order to ultimately take the life of a single individual, is that not morally the better path to take compared to knowing that action or inaction will take other lives along with the ultimate goal of taking that single life but going ahead with that plan anyway?

Do you really think that only uninvolved, neutral parties should be allowed to overthrow murderous despots? Do you think they're all chaotic evil for being personally motivated?

No to both. I'm only talking about Kerrigan in this specific instance and making morality judgement calls on her only.

Wait, Duke appointed the Magistrate?

No, I said something along the lines of assign, as in, you know, giving him a task to do. Broadly, it was to look after these people and make sure they don't get out of hand.

If he were that dutiful, I don't think he'd have been that easy to convert to the Sons of Korhal, certainly not in the way he was.

Well, his life wasn't on the line in Backwater Station as it was in Norad II.

How can you say that? It's a problem that did not exist at the time.

Easy, you're still insisting on seeing it as two problems whereas I see it as one.

Leaving Kerrigan on Char did not successfully beat the Protoss, evidently.

So? Taking Kerrigan to Aiur wouldn't necessarily have beaten the Protoss either. In either scenario, whether the Overmind takes Kerrigan to Aiur or leaves her on Char, it was over-confident that it could defeat the Protoss in general since it had Kerrigan. There's no difference.

OVERMIND: Use Kerrigan to counter it while we go defeat the Protoss.

The Overmind is not going to Aiur first and foremost to fight the Protoss and beat them entirely in general warfare, it's going there since there's potentially lots of opportunities to take Protoss for assimilation. This is it's ultimate goal. There's no rule that stipulates that the Overmind can't attempt that/ can't choose to take risks and engage the Protoss unless Kerrigan is there too.

[FanaticTemplar]

I think I mentioned this before somewhere else, but there's no evidence Kerrigan was specifically engineered for use against the Protoss. The manual states that the Zerg wanted genetic material for psychics, and the game also states during the Terran missions that the Zerg wanted psychics. There's no proof that:
(a) They needed Kerrigan specifically
(b) They only grabbed Kerrigan
(c) They needed their subject(s) to directly fight the Protoss

The ultimate goal of the Zerg in getting psychics appeared to be gain the genetic background it needed to get a foothold in understanding how to combat the Protoss. They needed to study psychic genetics, and they got that simply by assimilating psychics -- after all, Sons of Korhal would have no way of knowing the Zerg need psychics if the Zerg hadn't grabbed any at all by that point. While Kerrigan's infestation is probably related to this matter, there's no evidence of the Overmind's specific goals for her. Actually, the Overmind's loose hand in controlling her possibly indicates that keeping Kerrigan is more of an experiment than a firm part of a certain plan.

Oh, I agree, but again this doesn't show up in any way in the game. No psionically based unit, no apparent psionic upgrades in the Swarm, not even a mention anywhere of the Overmind getting anything out of it but Kerrigan herself.

But the Psi Disruptor is not an unexpected DEM anymore by the time Sc2 begins, so Mengsk could've designed another one in the years he was building up his Dominion again cos he knew the Queen of Blades was gonna come for him. If not that, one could just say he spent all those 4 years building up defences against a Zerg attack and neglected to defend himself against Terran attacks. It's not that unreasonable to think that since it certainly explains why Raynor was able to get so far as he did landing on frickin Korhal despite not being even trained as a Ghost, having an army tagging along with him and being supposedly at his "worst" from the start of WoL.

No, there was a Zerg assault on the Koprulu Sector during Wings of Liberty, so we can pretty much rule out Mengsk building a new Psi Disruptor.

Yeah, I hung my head in shame at having to use that as a reference. Either way, Kerrigan knows that the artifact is out there somewhere (either under Valerian or Mengsk's Snr) and could cripple her since anyone would use it against her immediately if she ever tried to use the Zerg again.

But Valerian agreed that his father had to be removed, and the artifact was with him and the Raiders when last we checked.

Looks like they intended it as an RPS (role-playing strategy) since the focus was always about the Kerrigan character being the important unit on the board. The same philosophy would've applied better if the story was about her being Ghost than it was about using the Zerg.

But it was about using the Zerg. Fans would have rioted at two Terran games and no Zerg. Also, I'm rioting as it is with the hero-centric gameplay, so no making it even less of an RTS .

It's a big deal if Raynor is supposed to be the number 1 terrorist on their list. Some security force the Dominion have for not spotting Raynor earlier, I mean if they can't do that, how can I expect them to stop Kerrigan, who'd be even better at infiltrating places?

What makes you think Raynor ever went to the planet himself, and didn't just stay in the Hyperion?

I wouldn't expect you to since you don't have superpowers or the training to back up a pathological need for vengeance against the president.

But even without all that, I can still get into Washington DC .

Heart-breaking possibly, but desperation, no.

Huh.

We're talking about Raynor succeeding largely when he shouldn't because the in-universe reason is that he's "just that good". It's why Valerian wants to recruit him. If that is so, we can attribute this and use it as justification for Kerrigan's chances of taking the Ghost route. She shouldn't really succeed but she can because she's really "just that good".

No, you're talking about Kerrigan basing her tactical choices, in-story, on the fact that she's a protagonist. And Raynor hasn't done that.

I'm thinking more of the moral responsibility of one's particular actions or inactions that can affect others. If it is potentially unnecessary and reasonably avoidable to taking other lives (whoever those other people are) in order to ultimately take the life of a single individual, is that not morally the better path to take compared to knowing that action or inaction will take other lives along with the ultimate goal of taking that single life but going ahead with that plan anyway?

So you're asking if there is such a thing as a 'just war'?

No to both. I'm only talking about Kerrigan in this specific instance and making morality judgement calls on her only.

Why?

No, I said something along the lines of assign, as in, you know, giving him a task to do. Broadly, it was to look after these people and make sure they don't get out of hand.

Because of his transmission in Wasteland? I'm pretty sure that's not for the colonists' welfare, since the colonists themselves are quite unhappy with it. But I don't think there's much of a connection between Duke and the Magistrate's job, except insofar as Duke makes that job harder .

Easy, you're still insisting on seeing it as two problems whereas I see it as one.

I can't see how you can claim that. The Overmind had no knowledge of the Dark Templar. How can you that his non-Dark Templar problems are the same problem as the Dark Templar?

So? Taking Kerrigan to Aiur wouldn't necessarily have beaten the Protoss either. In either scenario, whether the Overmind takes Kerrigan to Aiur or leaves her on Char, it was over-confident that it could defeat the Protoss in general since it had Kerrigan. There's no difference.

That's not relevant. You're trying to justify the Overmind 'forgetting' his motivation by claiming that leaving Kerrigan on Char fulfills that purpose, when it evidently did not.

The Overmind is not going to Aiur first and foremost to fight the Protoss and beat them entirely in general warfare, it's going there since there's potentially lots of opportunities to take Protoss for assimilation. This is it's ultimate goal. There's no rule that stipulates that the Overmind can't attempt that/ can't choose to take risks and engage the Protoss unless Kerrigan is there too.

You're the one overly concerned about where Kerrigan goes. What I keep telling you is that this task was despair-inducingly impossible to the Overmind, right up to the point where it forgot about that for no reason.

[Jconant]

You guys quote each other too much

[Turalyon]

You guys quote each other too much

See there? I quoted you, Jconant! Happy?

I have to quote FT's statements, otherwise my responses will look like even more meaningless gibberish on their own.

No, there was a Zerg assault on the Koprulu Sector during Wings of Liberty, so we can pretty much rule out Mengsk building a new Psi Disruptor.

A Zerg assault which apparently did nothing to weaken the Dominion in any significant way. I can take that as the Dominion being very well defended against Zerg attack (through DEM or just pure skill and preparedness - doesn't matter which) or that the Zerg weren't attacking the Dominion. Which is it supposed to be? Beats me.

But Valerian agreed that his father had to be removed, and the artifact was with him and the Raiders when last we checked.

Yes, but is Valerian as ruthless as Kerrigan that he'd allow her to rampage across Terran worlds to kill his father after seeing her as the QoB again? Would Kerrigan think he'd be better than Mengsk Snr and not use the artifact against her again. She can't trust that he'd be forgiving as Raynor. You know, now that I say this, that would have been an interesting part of the story to explore in regards to Valerian if we had that in HotS.

But it was about using the Zerg. Fans would have rioted at two Terran games and no Zerg. Also, I'm rioting as it is with the hero-centric gameplay, so no making it even less of an RTS .

I know all that. That is why if they really did want to serve the Zerg properly and keep it as an RTS, Kerrigan should never have been the focus of the story since it risks (and did as HotS turns out) underserving both. If they instead wanted to serve Kerrigan as a sympathisable character and keep it as an RPS, the Zerg should not be involved for obvious reasons (they are not sympathisable and not conducive to an RPS game). It's kinda funny that you mean "rioting at two Terran games" since I actually think HotS is actually more about Terran matters than it is about Zerg. The Zerg in HotS actually feel like window-dressing and incidental to the story. I have raged about this previously and elsewhere...

What makes you think Raynor ever went to the planet himself, and didn't just stay in the Hyperion?

Eh, I wasn't really considering whether or not Raynor had any specific presence on the planet when I made that comment, I was just making the point that Korhal was so easy to infiltrate.

No, you're talking about Kerrigan basing her tactical choices, in-story, on the fact that she's a protagonist. And Raynor hasn't done that.

That's not what I thought I said or meant. What you replied to was what I really meant. Looks like I suck at explaining things sometimes.

So you're asking if there is such a thing as a 'just war'?

Kinda. I'm questioning whether Kerrigan's actions in HotS can be wholly considered a "just war". I think it's debatable and there are points for either end.

Why?

Because that was my intent? Because I am judgemental?

Because of his transmission in Wasteland? I'm pretty sure that's not for the colonists' welfare, since the colonists themselves are quite unhappy with it.

From a neutral perspective, giving that assignment to the Magistrate is certainly for the colonists benefit in a "I know what's best for you"- kind of way (since the alternative is getting ultimately nommed by the Zerg) even though it may serve some other agenda.

I can't see how you can claim that. The Overmind had no knowledge of the Dark Templar. How can you that his non-Dark Templar problems are the same problem as the Dark Templar?

Easy. His "non-Dark Templar" problems are the Protoss in general. The Protoss are a problem as they were (you know, the whole Overmind despairing thing you like to latch onto) and still are.

That's not relevant. You're trying to justify the Overmind 'forgetting' his motivation by claiming that leaving Kerrigan on Char fulfills that purpose, when it evidently did not.

I'm afraid it is relevent since I never said the Overmind forgot or changed his motivation of using Kerrigan against the Protoss.

You're the one overly concerned about where Kerrigan goes.

Really? How? All I've said recently is that Kerrigan is fighting Protoss which she can do anywhere there's Protoss. It just so happens that there's some on Char.

What I keep telling you is that this task was despair-inducingly impossible to the Overmind, right up to the point where it forgot about that for no reason.

You do like to go back to this "Overmind in despair" thing, don't you? The manual does say the Overmind was on the verge of despair but never went into despair. It well could've stopped when it discovered that humanity had psionic potential or when it finally captured Kerrigan. So tell me this, aside from the manual, where in the Overmind campaign itself does the Overmind actually show despair whenever it has to consider engaging the Protoss? Where is this despair that is, according to you, "forgotten"?

[Nissa]

Oh, I agree, but again this doesn't show up in any way in the game. No psionically based unit, no apparent psionic upgrades in the Swarm, not even a mention anywhere of the Overmind getting anything out of it but Kerrigan herself.

That's kinda my point. You guys are debating on whether or not Kerrigan should logically have gone to Aiur based on her usefulness to the swarm when the fact of the matter is we never knew her specific purpose at all. It never showed up in gameplay and only slightly in story. There's no point debating it when there isn't enough information to debate over. It's all speculation.

[ragnarok]

That's kinda my point. You guys are debating on whether or not Kerrigan should logically have gone to Aiur based on her usefulness to the swarm when the fact of the matter is we never knew her specific purpose at all. It never showed up in gameplay and only slightly in story. There's no point debating it when there isn't enough information to debate over. It's all speculation.

Going to Aiur would have helped immensely, unless she was firmly convinced the moment she went there, the Golden Armada would strike at her. Perhaps the swarm hadn't reached its full potential by the end of HotS.