[Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts

[ragnarok]

Little bit more than that: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/10160956386

Even so, if you're trying to kill one guy, Kerrigan's goal should have been assassination, not planetary warfare.

What makes you think she felt Mengsk didn't prepare for assasination? Bottom line is she gave him WAY too much credit because he learned jack squat after BW.

[DarthYam]

Better than HoTS where it's evil masquerading as good or "misunderstood anti-hero". There are still people who defend Kerrigan's actions to destroy entire planets to get revenge on one guy, because that's what Blizzard was pushing.


Quite ironic then that she goes on to unleash the zerg on multiple worlds in HoTS for a guy that didn't treat her half as bad as those people. That's one way to get a character completely wrong.


Explained in the game. The greatness of her spirit has been left to her.

That's what makes it interesting. We wonder how much of the original Sarah is still in there, and that question is finally answered in BW when Raynor vows to kill her. At this point, the insipid love story that people pretend exists should have had its final nail in the coffin if it didn't already happen after she turned into a disgusting bug creature.


Explain how she's conflicted beyond "feels bad about it once in a while". Plans to get revenge on Mengsk before he attacks Umoja. Ends up getting revenge on Mengsk and everything else she ever wanted because her and Raynor are Metzen's favorite characters. Wow, cool story bro. Very deep development.


Take off your fanboy goggles. It can't be nostalgia because I replayed BW a few months ago. And what do you know, it's still decent, and SC2 is still shit in comparison. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

1.) Now you're outright lying. Templar explained how most of the worlds are military installations, and attacking them is no different from some of the missions in the original. Yes Civilians probably died in some cases. Guess what; that's war. Even more importantly, Raynor, Tassadar, Fenix and the other characters are just as guilty and you don't seem eager to acknowledge it. And "so consumed with revenge that she'll do what it takes" is more sympathetic than "HURR HURR I WANT POWUR HURR HURR" It's easier to see where she comes from, and she actually has the decency to feel bad about (she doesn't enjoy what she did to Lassara.)

2.) Given her situation (when she finally has a chance to leave things behind Mengsk promptly murders the one person who ever showed her any decency) her wanting Mengsk to pay and fuck the consequences makes sense.

3.) I still call horseshit. The overmind said she was bound to obey him and it was an unambiguously good thing. Also my point earlier was that Kerrigan was a complex individual. She wasn't an angel but she had moral traits and was by no means a monster. In Brood War she has the character depth of snidely whiplash. That's why BW was horseshit. Saying that she changed wholly of her voilition is and always was utter horseshit.

4.) When I said conflicted I meant during the Umoja arc. A part of her is considering leaving everything behind and starting a normal life with Jim. When Naktul makes a comment about how she's like the old king she's terrified and when she's trying to contact Jim she says "there's something dark in me". She only goes on the warpath fully when Mengsk gives his speech and she hears about Raynor's "death".

5.) Kerrigan got Raynor to help her because in the end she did the right thing on her own will without prompting. It's pretty damn obvious given her shock that Raynor shows up that she didn't expect him to get involved and that she assumed she burned all bridges. Therefore she did the "Spare civillians" because she realized it was right. THAT was why Raynor helped. In the end, it wasn't her power that saves her from the xel'naga artifact. It was the fact she did the right thing on her own that encouraged Raynor to help her.

Also, Nissa was totally a coward. She said Tassadar was penitent. He wasn't. If anything he felt he wasn't harsh enough. Tassadar's actions were more equivelant of a nuremberg defense.

[ragnarok]

5.) Kerrigan got Raynor to help her because in the end she did the right thing on her own will without prompting. It's pretty damn obvious given her shock that Raynor shows up that she didn't expect him to get involved and that she assumed she burned all bridges. Therefore she did the "Spare civillians" because she realized it was right. THAT was why Raynor helped. In the end, it wasn't her power that saves her from the xel'naga artifact. It was the fact she did the right thing on her own that encouraged Raynor to help her.

I understand your point on this DarthYam, but you have to look at it from the outside POV. Sure there are those like myself who wanted to believe she learned in the end and still had the humanity in her, but there would be just as many who'd see this as nothing more than another manipulation trick.

The whole "Believe in Me" cutscene in HotS would be meaningless if presented to someone else. For example, if Raynor had told Artanis about this on Korhal, he would have simply responded that Kerrigan knew she couldn't pull the same trick like she did during the BW and expect Raynor to fall for it again, so she had to come up with something else, and THAT is why she gave him the chance to kill her.

Thus many have argued: why didn't Raynor suspect that the only reason she spared the civilians was because she was trying to manipulate him yet again?

[Turalyon]

While he tries to be reasonable to both, with the Magistrate he's appealing to duty and responsibility, and with Duke it's a lot more pragmatic, about the failure of the Confederacy and joining the winning side. And the failure isn't so much in going for pragmatism, it's that Duke isn't especially interested in the fate of the Confederacy and wants to know what's in it for him, specifically.

As to the Magistrate, there may be no direct interaction, but Mengsk has clearly looked him up. One of the first things he says is that he expects that Magistrate to react a certain way due to his reputation.

How is this evidence of him reading people really well and not just him making assumptions of people based on their station? Mengsk knows he's talking to a Magistrate, a title given to someone who would would reasonably be expected to care for people and who has responsibilities for other people. No "reading" of a person required there, especially when the immediate situation makes it a non-choice for the Magistrate anyway.

Mengsk knows is only out for himself and offers him a position in his cabinet only after he rejects Mengsk's pragmatic overtures by claiming "I'm a general for God's Sake!". Once again, don't need to be a good reader of people to see that. That Mengsk starts off pragmatically is him making an assumption on military commanders generally being pragmatic. Then again, he doesn't really need to read the guy since that well since it's a non-decision for Duke anyway. He ask belligerently but knows his situation means that he'd have to join Mengsk or be left to die.

I don't know about that. Did Mengsk actually believe Raynor would be fine with New Gettysburg? His speech afterward has always sounded incredibly fake to me, and I always assumed he didn't expect it to work and was putting no effort into it, but still had to throw it out just in case. Maybe that's just my perspective though. Either way, I've always wondered why he didn't send Raynor out to die with Kerrigan. It seems unfathomable that he wouldn't know about his objections. Maybe he feared that Raynor would actually refuse the order. Or maybe he feared that Raynor would have a plan to escape with some of his own loyal people, and that they'd both escape if Raynor was down there.

If Mengsk could read that Raynor had a Saviour complex for Kerrigan from the get-go, surely he must also know that sending her down and leaving her there would rile him up. The simplest answer is the best - Mengsk is just not that good at reading people. In contrast, I've come to interpret Mengsk's tirade against Raynor's as him accusing Raynor of not being able to read his pragmatic, utilitarian intentions. Sure, I'm kind of leaning here, but I'm trying to put myself in Mengsk's shoes. I think Mengsk may be quite honest when he mentions the sacrifices he's made and can't understand why Raynor's drawn a specific line with Kerrigan since to Mengsk, Kerrigan's sacrifice is no different from anyone else has had to be sacrificed to get them to this position. Failing to continue from here would make all those sacrifices, including Kerrigan's, a waste. It's still megalomania for sure given he thinks he's the solution, but I think he honestly feels that bad things must be done and to not let them be done in vain (or undone as Raynor threatens and actually does) for things to ultimately get better.

Well, I consider his incompetence in Brood War to be a failure at writing the character, but if you want to believe that the character is truly inept and this competent display is the failed writing, then that's your right, but just as I have to accept that Brood War actually happened, you also have to accept that this actually happened too .

You're getting me wrong. I don't want to believe he's that inept but the narrative up to that point is making that decision up for me! I can't just casually dismiss a consistent representation of Mengsk being dumb, starting from BW and continuing in WoL (except for just one moment/line), just because I don't like it. I don't deny that one line is something special, but it is an anomaly based on what Mengsk is currently depicted as.

Lol. Um, to be fair, Kerrigan's role for the Overmind was primarily a genetic one. They didn't specifically need her, they needed to assimilate psychics to add their genetic material to the swarm. So, technically they had what they needed when Kerri was fully infested.

Or leaving her behind was part of this plan, but got interrupted. I dunno.

Too right! I still don't understand why people can't get that the Overmind did not leave Kerrigan behind as if she was doing nothing, was safe from harm or not helping in someway fight the Protoss. She was fighting the greatest Protoss enemy that the Overmind had ever encountered at that point: the Dark Templar! Going to Aiur was perhaps the safest thing it could do rather than remain on the planet that it's eventual killers (Tassadar, Zeratul and the DTs) were already on!! Having it's "greatest agent" fight them and keep them at bay from following does not mean Kerrigan was not doing anything to help the Overmind!!

[FanaticTemplar]

How is this evidence of him reading people really well and not just him making assumptions of people based on their station? Mengsk knows he's talking to a Magistrate, a title given to someone who would would reasonably be expected to care for people and who has responsibilities for other people. No "reading" of a person required there, especially when the immediate situation makes it a non-choice for the Magistrate anyway.

Now that's an interesting set of assumptions. I've been wondering about the role of Magistrate for a while, and what it meant exactly. Mar Sara's Magistrate was sent to keep the colony pacified after the panic caused by the destruction of Chau Sara. I've always been curious as to where he was from, the role of planetary governor would imply someone influential within the Confederacy, but later missions disprove that, and Duke calls him a 'fringe world yokel' so he's apparently not some Confederate aristocrat being given his own planet.

EDIT: The point was that I can't accept your assumptions about what a Magistrate is, because I haven't really decided what a Magistrate is .

If Mengsk could read that Raynor had a Saviour complex for Kerrigan from the get-go, surely he must also know that sending her down and leaving her there would rile him up. The simplest answer is the best - Mengsk is just not that good at reading people. In contrast, I've come to interpret Mengsk's tirade against Raynor's as him accusing Raynor of not being able to read his pragmatic, utilitarian intentions. Sure, I'm kind of leaning here, but I'm trying to put myself in Mengsk's shoes. I think Mengsk may be quite honest when he mentions the sacrifices he's made and can't understand why Raynor's drawn a specific line with Kerrigan since to Mengsk, Kerrigan's sacrifice is no different from anyone else has had to be sacrificed to get them to this position. Failing to continue from here would make all those sacrifices, including Kerrigan's, a waste. It's still megalomania for sure given he thinks he's the solution, but I think he honestly feels that bad things must be done and to not let them be done in vain (or undone as Raynor threatens and actually does) for things to ultimately get better.

Raynor couldn't have had a savior-complex for Kerrigan before he lost her, since the guilt over that failure is the source of that issue.

Also, I completely disagree with your interpretation of Arcturus. Leaving Kerrigan and her forces behind wasn't purely utilitarian - we've seen him fly in to evacuate Zerg-assaulted locations before in Desperate Alliance, and a strike force large enough to fight off Tassadar's Koprulu Expedition is far more valuable than some Mar Saran colonists. Nor was his speech to Raynor utilitarian either - that whole seeds/reaping metaphor is pure vacuous hogwash.

You're getting me wrong. I don't want to believe he's that inept but the narrative up to that point is making that decision up for me! I can't just casually dismiss a consistent representation of Mengsk being dumb, starting from BW and continuing in WoL (except for just one moment/line), just because I don't like it. I don't deny that one line is something special, but it is an anomaly based on what Mengsk is currently depicted as.

As you wish. Though I think Mengsk in Wings of Liberty was usually portrayed pretty adequately and mostly came off as dumb through the actions of his subordinates (especially the news crew).

Too right! I still don't understand why people can't get that the Overmind did not leave Kerrigan behind as if she was doing nothing, was safe from harm or not helping in someway fight the Protoss. She was fighting the greatest Protoss enemy that the Overmind had ever encountered at that point: the Dark Templar! Going to Aiur was perhaps the safest thing it could do rather than remain on the planet that it's eventual killers (Tassadar, Zeratul and the DTs) were already on!! Having it's "greatest agent" fight them and keep them at bay from following does not mean Kerrigan was not doing anything to help the Overmind!!

She wasn't there to help him when Tassadar and the Dark Templar came for him, was she? And even by that argument, Zeratul's band aren't the only Dark Templar out there.

But regardless, the reason I keep bringing it up is because it doesn't fit. The Overmind despaired of overcoming the Protoss based on the memories of the Xel'naga because the Protoss had become a highly psionic race able to bend and warp the very fabric of reality to their whims. The Xel'naga wouldn't even have known of the Dark Templar at the time. I accept the "Oh, she was hunting the Dark Templar" because it's the best explanation, not because it's a good one.

[Nissa]

But regardless, the reason I keep bringing it up is because it doesn't fit. The Overmind despaired of overcoming the Protoss based on the memories of the Xel'naga because the Protoss had become a highly psionic race able to bend and warp the very fabric of reality to their whims. The Xel'naga wouldn't even have known of the Dark Templar at the time. I accept the "Oh, she was hunting the Dark Templar" because it's the best explanation, not because it's a good one.

I don't necessarily agree that the DT explanation doesn't fit, but I do agree that there's no particular proof for it. It's a reasonable explanation in the sense that once the Overmind found out that the DT exist, he decided to get Kerrigan on that, perhaps as a way to test her skill. But yeah, that's only a nice explanation. The Overmind was never shown giving her orders, so it's an area we can only speculate on.

I personally feel that he left her behind as a way to make sure she didn't die on Aiur. After all, he was taking a huge risk in going there himself, and there's no sense in letting his pet project die before she reaches her potential.

[Gradius]

So what I see while playing the game is that Kerrigan's attacking a Dominion outpost and that those innocents are Marines, Siege Tanks, Bunkers, Vikings and Thors.

It's much the same for the other missions too, except where they involve the Protoss (I have no idea why Kerrigan's fighting the Protoss). In the Baneling mission you destroy a Dominion mining facility, in the Hydralisk mission, one of your Hive clusters is under attack by the Dominion's elite infestation specialist division of innocents. And at this point, I think I've seen enough. I don't like Heart of the Swarm enough to confirm that this is going to be the same story for everything else in that post, but I can guess.

Those planets have little to do with the war effort. If you're trying to assassinate Mengsk, or even raze Korhal, what the hell do random mining facilities have to do with that? With the massive responsibility of commanding zerg, Kerrigan should be attempting to minimize the loss of life, especially soldiers that don't deserve to die for signing up to defend against bloodthirsty planet-destroying bug monsters. Assassination should be her option, and if she still needs her revenge, then other planets become irrelevant in a sacking of Korhal.

This is the source of your outrage? This is in contrast to what, exactly? I've already brought up Tassadar and his repeated planetary genocides. How about that time Raynor and Fenix unleashed the Swarm on a neutral faction to steal their stuff and transform their miners into zombified living bombs? Remember when Artanis and Zeratul attacked a Dominion world because the Protoss forgot a crystal there ages ago and now they want it back? And in light of how well Infested Kerrigan slaughtered those Terrans, Zeratul figures that maybe he judged her too harshly?

All people who were actually fighting a real war, not trying to get revenge on one guy who's family you murdered. Tassadar for example could be argued to have saved more lives by preventing the zerg infestation from spreading. Can you prove that it's not the case? I can sure as hell prove that Kerrigan didn't spare civilians when she could have. Also, if you condemn him for destroying planets, then you'd be a hypocrite for not recognizing that him disobeying his orders was an honorable thing to do and proof that he changed as a character for the better. Nobody had to talk him into it, and he suffered consequences. Kerrigan got a pat on the back from almost everyone and never actually apologized for killing those specific people.

Hypothetical question: Somebody tortured you and tried to kill you. You escaped and vowed to get revenge. You find out that he's hiding in Russia, but you can't get in. So now the only way to kill him is to launch a nuke knowing it will kill millions of people. So you push that button or do you put your revenge on hold? Because that's what zerg are, an easy-win button that will destroy whatever planet you want given that they're genetic clones who are only given enough intelligence to perform their required function of killing people.

I've tried to hunt down those scenes and the one I've found was all about attacking Dominion military assets. In this case, the shipyards of Jontur II. The visuals of planets being engulfed in creep are symbolic, unless you actually believe that the entire planet was infested by a single Brood Mother before she even had the time to say "It shall be done, my Queen".

It's not symbolic. It's a time lapse. Engulfing the entire planet with creep is something that zerg definitely do according to the lore.

http://imageshack.us/a/img832/7636/cruxas32.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img594/3796/cruxas3.jpg

That planet right there could easily be mistaken for Korhal, a planet with billions of humans on it.

You have no reason to believe the civilians were spared? You also have no reason to believe they weren't.

Ah the classic religious logic rebuttal. We have cocooned civilian doodads. Kerrigan having to be talked into sparing civilians on Korhal twice. Kerrigan keeps repeating "kill all in your path" and "leave no survivors". Never do we hear her say "destroy this planet but leave the civilians", unless Jim is watching in the background somewhere.

I don't even have a reason to believe there were any there in the first place - from the example of Valhalla we know that the Dominion had military facilities on completely uninhabited worlds.

No civilians? Absolutely ridiculous. What are apartment buildings doing on Cruxas III? What are all those lights from orbit? Robots managing the entire Dominion industrial complex? The warhound short story describes how civilians live/work in military installations. There's people there.

Valhalla? Prove there's no people there. There's the military installation, but prove that the rest of the lights aren't civilians and the moon is "uninhabited"? There's the scientist units that you consider incontrovertible proof. It's a research campus.

She destroys buildings. Truly, this series has never seen such a monster.

Hey, remember in The Jacobs Installation when Raynor attacks a military installation that actually has these units clearly labeled "Civilian" that are super murderable?

'Cause I'm sure none of those guys were murdered on this completely opportunistic raid.

Raynor wouldn't shoot civilians that pose no threat to him. Kerrigan has to be talked into sparing civilians because they're in the way and would make her invasion with bug monsters a little bit harder.

Done.

I asked for civilians. Those are all military personnel according to you, and therefore their lives don't matter. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

It's so nice of Kerrigan to spare those people after she had already destroyed their base, got what she wanted, and they were "too injured to ever be a threat". It's too bad that even the Queen of Blades in Brood War spared people too. Civilians too no less since she left everyone alive for 4 years.

OVERMIND: I invaded Terran space and laid waste to countless worlds so I could get my hands on this prize, the only thing that can ensure my victory over the Protoss... better leave it behind and invade the Protoss without it anyway.

The Overmind is an amoral alien entity, not a human who's supposed to not be a murderer anymore.

DUKE: Hey, we're stuck on this planet getting our arses handed to us by the Zerg. Better start a fight with the Protoss too!
TASSADAR: I too am stuck on this planet having my arse handed to me by the Zerg. I support your proposal entirely!

Duke's entire schtick is that he's an asshole, and Tassadar is attempting to scare him off while reminding him that he owes him one.

TASSADAR: I can't bear to see my brethren murdering one another, so I surrender. Good luck to all my supporters in their continued slaughter of my brethren, don't give up the fight!
FENIX: I guess we should attack the Conclave to liberate Tassadar.

He says don't give up the fight against the zerg, not keep fighting the Conclave. Pretty dishonest representation.

ZERATUL: We're going on this planet to obtain a crystal. Our goal is planetary warfare, not theft.

Ok, obviously the terrans didn't just agree to give them the crystal. What's your point?

ARTANIS: The United Earth Directorate has set up a planetary blockade against us!
ZERATUL: Can't we teleport?
ARTANIS: No, we have to fight them.

Now your complaint is that the UED set up a blockade that performs its required function of blockading fleets? K.

ARTANIS: I have a bold plan to deal a lot of superficial damage to the Overmind!
ZERATUL: Are we going to bombard it from orbit?
ARTANIS: No, we're going to get into melee range and hit it with our laserswords. Except the Dark Templar. Dark Templar are not allowed to hit it with their laserswords.

ALDARIS: I have discovered that your leader is mindslaved to Kerrigan! Not that I intend to tell you this in any of my multiple speeches, that might cause us to debate and consider the issue instead of having a futile and harmful civil war.

STUKOV: Duran, are you betraying us?
DURAN: La la la la la! I can't hear you!
STUKOV: Yep, he's betraying us. Captain, inform DuGalle of this, I've got other things to do.
CAPTAIN: ...
DURAN: Hey Admiral, Stukov's a traitor.
DUGALLE: Really?
CAPTAIN: ...
DUGALLE: Well, guess we need to kill him then.

These have been known flaws of BW since forever ago.

DUGALLE: Our objective here is to eliminate Arcturus Mengsk. He is our priority threat in this expedition to neutralise the aliens. For some reason.
MENGSK: Suckers, I escaped!
DUGALLE: Damn, okay, now our objective is to eliminate Arcturus Mengsk.
MENGSK: Nope! Still escaping!
DUGALLE: Well, we had to have the exact same failure twice in a row, otherwise what kind of story would it be?

The UED has an unexplained vendetta against Mengsk, and are an evil faction there to enslave the sector. What's your point? It's pretty consistent unlike Kerrigan who gets thrown a pity party after murdering a bunch of civilians.

KERRIGAN: Okay guys, we need to invade Moria to get some resources.
RAYNOR: Can't we get these resources literally anywhere?
KERRIGAN: Invade the damned planet.
FENIX: Oh, oh, pick me!

I swear, you'd think the entire story was just cooked up to justify going from one RTS map to the next.

"Moria is the richest resource node in the sector."

Clearly they wouldn't have given them resources to fight the UED. But notice how these are actual wars between entire factions due to ideological differences, not petty quests to get revenge on one guy who tried to kill you once.

EDIT: Okay, so for this I had to read your Battle.net posts, then replay parts of Heart of the Swarm, which I hate, then I had to fish out a something like two hour video of all the cutscenes in the game trying to catch one of the parts where Kerrigan orders her Brood Mothers on their errands, and all that for some pretty weak arguments, so I kind of ran out of patience over the course of this post. I apologise for getting sarcastic and acerbic, especially by the end.

Little bit more than that: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/10160956386
Yeah, so I actually went back to play some missions in Heart of the Swarm to verify your claims, and yeah, I'm smelling a lot of bullshit there.

Not impressed. You threw a couple strawmen and false analogies at me while dismissing the mountain of evidence that Kerrigan is an evil mass murderer? Either replay HoTS or consider that you're a victim of confirmation bias.

1.) Now you're outright lying. Templar explained how most of the worlds are military installations, and attacking them is no different from some of the missions in the original. Yes Civilians probably died in some cases. Guess what; that's war. Even more importantly, Raynor, Tassadar, Fenix and the other characters are just as guilty and you don't seem eager to acknowledge it. And "so consumed with revenge that she'll do what it takes" is more sympathetic than "HURR HURR I WANT POWUR HURR HURR" It's easier to see where she comes from, and she actually has the decency to feel bad about (she doesn't enjoy what she did to Lassara.)

No they are not as guilty, because they didn't slaughter millions of unrelated people because of a vendetta against one guy.

Just read the thread. It's blatantly obvious, especially with the worlds that get consumed by creep, that civilian death toll should be outrageous.

2.) Given her situation (when she finally has a chance to leave things behind Mengsk promptly murders the one person who ever showed her any decency) her wanting Mengsk to pay and fuck the consequences makes sense.

4.) When I said conflicted I meant during the Umoja arc. A part of her is considering leaving everything behind and starting a normal life with Jim.

For the fiftieth time, she planned on getting revenge right from the start. The game has Raynor trying to talk her out of it. Maybe "part of her" wants to abandon her quest, but most of her doesn't, and with the massive responsibility that she has with commanding zerg, she has failed utterly to use her power judiciously, so I could care less.

3.) I still call horseshit. The overmind said she was bound to obey him and it was an unambiguously good thing. Also my point earlier was that Kerrigan was a complex individual. She wasn't an angel but she had moral traits and was by no means a monster. In Brood War she has the character depth of snidely whiplash. That's why BW was horseshit. Saying that she changed wholly of her voilition is and always was utter horseshit.

Ok, think what you want but at no point does it say she's obligated to obey the Overmind. It says the opposite. She's allied with zerg but free to do as she wants.

In BW she was a monster, but one of the more interesting ones I've seen, and far more interesting than Amon, Narud or any of the other baddies in SC2. Dialogue that actually meant something and made you think as opposed to "braahhhhmgoingtokillyouuuuuuu!"

When Naktul makes a comment about how she's like the old king she's terrified and when she's trying to contact Jim she says "there's something dark in me". She only goes on the warpath fully when Mengsk gives his speech and she hears about Raynor's "death".

So her response is to launch an invasion of multiple planets? There are people here on Earth that have had it way worse and wouldn't resort to mass murder. I have no sympathy for her.

5.) Kerrigan got Raynor to help her because in the end she did the right thing on her own will without prompting. It's pretty damn obvious given her shock that Raynor shows up that she didn't expect him to get involved and that she assumed she burned all bridges. Therefore she did the "Spare civillians" because she realized it was right. THAT was why Raynor helped. In the end, it wasn't her power that saves her from the xel'naga artifact. It was the fact she did the right thing on her own that encouraged Raynor to help her.

After Valerian guilted her into doing it. Let's give her the Nobel Peace prize.

Raynor helped her because he's also a pscyhopath. Of course I wouldn't expect Raynor to forgive Kerrigan after five minutes, and neither did she apparently, but that doesn't mean she didn't save the civilians because Jim was watching. And even if she did, one act of goodwill among an entire campaign of mass murder isn't enough to make up for it.

Also, Nissa was totally a coward. She said Tassadar was penitent. He wasn't. If anything he felt he wasn't harsh enough. Tassadar's actions were more equivelant of a nuremberg defense.

Well Fanatic is completely off base here. The "war is war" excuse actually does apply to Tassadar and you could easily argue that he helped prevent more damage.

[FanaticTemplar]

Those planets have little to do with the war effort. If you're trying to assassinate Mengsk, or even raze Korhal, what the hell do random mining facilities have to do with that? With the massive responsibility of commanding zerg, Kerrigan should be attempting to minimize the loss of life, especially soldiers that don't deserve to die for signing up to defend against bloodthirsty planet-destroying bug monsters. Assassination should be her option, and if she still needs her revenge, then other planets become irrelevant in a sacking of Korhal.

Those planets provide the military might of the Dominion. Prevent them from supplying the Dominion's military, you weaken the enemy's forces. This is basic.

All people who were actually fighting a real war, not trying to get revenge on one guy who's family you murdered.

Bullshit. When the leader of one of the most powerful forces in the galactic sector invests the full military might of his empire into destroying you, you're already in a real war.

Tassadar for example could be argued to have saved more lives by preventing the zerg infestation from spreading. Can you prove that it's not the case? I can sure as hell prove that Kerrigan didn't spare civilians when she could have. Also, if you condemn him for destroying planets, then you'd be a hypocrite for not recognizing that him disobeying his orders was an honorable thing to do and proof that he changed as a character for the better. Nobody had to talk him into it, and he suffered consequences. Kerrigan got a pat on the back from almost everyone and never actually apologized for killing those specific people.

Bullshit. Tassadar never apologised for killing those specific people and is recognised as a legendary hero. Fenix and Raynor never apologised for killing those specific people, and all they got were congratulations - for attacking other planets to sack Korhal, as you put it. Nobody apologises for invading Braxis, and Zeratul considers it to be a sign that Kerrigan is actually not as bad as he thought.

It's not symbolic. It's a time lapse. Engulfing the entire planet with creep is something that zerg definitely do according to the lore.

http://imageshack.us/a/img832/7636/cruxas32.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img594/3796/cruxas3.jpg

That planet right there could easily be mistaken for Korhal, a planet with billions of humans on it.

Can you demonstrate your assertion?

Ah the classic religious logic rebuttal.

Yes, "In the absence of evidence, one cannot draw conclusions" is the classic religious logic rebuttal.

You, meanwhile, are using the sound logic of "in the absence of evidence, whatever I want to believe must be true!"

Bullshit.

Valhalla? Prove there's no people there.

Very well, I retract my assertion.

Raynor wouldn't shoot civilians that pose no threat to him.

Of course not. No civilians were harmed during The Jacobs Installation. They were put into the game and not made invincible because they knew we would micro around them to keep them alive.

Kerrigan has to be talked into sparing civilians because they're in the way and would make her invasion with bug monsters a little bit harder.

Which makes her one of only two characters in the history of StarCraft to have made a deliberate effort to avoid civilian deaths. And the absolute only one to have done so repeatedly.

Can you quote to something better - or even equal - being proposed when Raynor and Fenix attacked Korhal in Brood War? How about when Kerrigan and Raynor unleashed the Zerg on Tarsonis? Oh, they issued an objection, but they stayed with the Sons of Korhal to enjoy the victory, didn't they? Civilians were pretty explicitly not spared in that one.

I asked for civilians. Those are all military personnel according to you, and therefore their lives don't matter. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

So we're agreed that she's spared both military personnel and civilians when they weren't a threat to her. You're off to a great start with your position there.

The Overmind is an amoral alien entity, not a human who's supposed to not be a murderer anymore.


Duke's entire schtick is that he's an asshole, and Tassadar is attempting to scare him off while reminding him that he owes him one.


He says don't give up the fight against the zerg, not keep fighting the Conclave. Pretty dishonest representation.


Ok, obviously the terrans didn't just agree to give them the crystal. What's your point?


Now your complaint is that the UED set up a blockade that performs its required function of blockading fleets? K.


These have been known flaws of BW since forever ago.


The UED has an unexplained vendetta against Mengsk, and are an evil faction there to enslave the sector. What's your point? It's pretty consistent unlike Kerrigan who gets thrown a pity party after murdering a bunch of civilians.

Man, I really wish I'd said something like "It's almost like the entire RTS genre is built on large scale warfare on the flimsiest of pretexts." so you would have known what the point was instead of completely flailing about.

"Moria is the richest resource node in the sector."


Clearly they wouldn't have given them resources to fight the UED. But notice how these are actual wars between entire factions due to ideological differences, not petty quests to get revenge on one guy who tried to kill you once.


Not impressed. You threw a couple strawmen and false analogies at me while dismissing the mountain of evidence that Kerrigan is an evil mass murderer? Either replay HoTS or consider that you're a victim of confirmation bias.

"Kerrigan is the greatest monster in history because she destroyed the military troops of an enemy who was trying to kill her, but Raynor and Fenix are a-ok for launching a brutal murder party on a neutral faction and turning their miners into zombified living bombs, because those people somehow believed they were entitled to owning their own stuff."

Yeah, I've read your posts. I didn't expect you to be impressed by facts or reason.

[ragnarok]

I don't necessarily agree that the DT explanation doesn't fit, but I do agree that there's no particular proof for it. It's a reasonable explanation in the sense that once the Overmind found out that the DT exist, he decided to get Kerrigan on that, perhaps as a way to test her skill. But yeah, that's only a nice explanation. The Overmind was never shown giving her orders, so it's an area we can only speculate on.

I personally feel that he left her behind as a way to make sure she didn't die on Aiur. After all, he was taking a huge risk in going there himself, and there's no sense in letting his pet project die before she reaches her potential.

I wouldn't say the Overmind was taking a huge risk. Likely it had observed the actions between the Khalai and Nerazim on Char, and saw the tension problems. Perhaps it felt the Khalai would never want anything to do with the Dark Templar and without them there's no way to stop the swarm on Aiur.

On the other hand, leaving Kerrigan on Char was necessary for the sake to hunt down Zeratul and the Dark Templar. Not really sure WHERE exactly the Overmind was on Char at that time, but maybe he felt Zeratul's actions could kill him as well and therefore may begin looking for him. Kerrigan therefore will serve as both the deterrent and the distraction

[Gradius]

Yeah, I've read your posts. I didn't expect you to be impressed by facts or reason.

Not sure I like your attitude. But alright, I can do heated debates. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Those planets provide the military might of the Dominion. Prevent them from supplying the Dominion's military, you weaken the enemy's forces. This is basic.

You get that we're attacking one planet? Supply planets are irrelevant in a Blitzkrieg. That's basic. A factory isn't going to produce a Viking and get it onto the field during the time that Kerrigan spends attacking Korhal.

This isn't WW2 where you have to plow through Europe and worry about supply lines. You can warp straight there and Kerrigan has the Leviathans to keep reinforcements out.

Hypothetical question: Somebody tortured you and tried to kill you. You escaped and vowed to get revenge. You find out that he's hiding in Russia, but you can't get in. So now the only way to kill him is to launch a nuke knowing it will kill millions of people. So you push that button or do you put your revenge on hold? Because that's what zerg are, an easy-win button that will destroy whatever planet you want given that they're genetic clones who are only given enough intelligence to perform their required function of killing people.

Answer the question.

Bullshit. When the leader of one of the most powerful forces in the galactic sector invests the full military might of his empire into destroying you, you're already in a real war.

So leave. It's your life vs. millions of people. Kerrigan has an army of renewable bloodthirsty slaves to protect her.

Bullshit. Tassadar never apologised for killing those specific people and is recognised as a legendary hero. Fenix and Raynor never apologised for killing those specific people, and all they got were congratulations - for attacking other planets to sack Korhal, as you put it. Nobody apologises for invading Braxis, and Zeratul considers it to be a sign that Kerrigan is actually not as bad as he thought.

Tassadar doesn't have jack to apologize for. The order to purge planets is on the Conclave, not him, and for all we know he indirectly saved many more lives. Fenix & Raynor were fighting against a faction that was going to enslave the entire sector, which the Morians allied themselves with. Why the hell should they apologize? The war is war excuse actually applies here.

Can you demonstrate your assertion?

It's in the game therefore it happened? -_-

Yes, "In the absence of evidence, one cannot draw conclusions" is the classic religious logic rebuttal.

You, meanwhile, are using the sound logic of "in the absence of evidence, whatever I want to believe must be true!"

Bullshit.

Not sure if joking or serious. I link you an entire article full of evidence and you say "you have no evidence". Get over your confirmation bias. Be honest, were you planning to disagree before you had even read it based on your one cursory HoTS playthrough?

You say "In the absence of evidence, one cannot draw conclusions", and in the meantime go on to ignore evidence that I provide on that same line: "We have cocooned civilian doodads. Kerrigan having to be talked into sparing civilians on Korhal twice. Kerrigan keeps repeating "kill all in your path" and "leave no survivors". Never do we hear her say "destroy this planet but leave the civilians", unless Jim is watching in the background somewhere."

There are civilians on planets. Those planets were ordered to be wiped out. Therefore the civilians died.

1+1 = 2

Get it? Or if that's too hard just replay Kaldir. Confirmed colonists being slaughtered by Kerrigan because the prospect of the protoss finding out that she's alive might make her invasion a little bit harder.

Of course not. No civilians were harmed during The Jacobs Installation. They were put into the game and not made invincible because they knew we would micro around them to keep them alive.

If you think Raynor choosing to open fire on civilians for no good reason fits the narrative and his character, that's your prerogative. Guess he slaughtered some more innocent scientists on Valhalla then.

Which makes her one of only two characters in the history of StarCraft to have made a deliberate effort to avoid civilian deaths. And the absolute only one to have done so repeatedly.

Haha, yeah I'm glad those civilians on Cruxas III were liberated from their bodies by Kerrigan. -_-

Raynor - helped rescue people on Mar Sara. Sent a rescue mission to Char. Helped rescue protoss at the start of BW.
Kerrigan - went out of her way to plant emitters so that only military targets on Antiga would be targeted.
Mengsk - helped rescue civilians on Mar Sara too.
Tassadar - spared civilians on Tarsonis, tried to stop more Protoss from dying in the civil war.
Zeratul - went out of his way to save protoss civilians in BW. etc.

Can you quote to something better - or even equal - being proposed when Raynor and Fenix attacked Korhal in Brood War? How about when Kerrigan and Raynor unleashed the Zerg on Tarsonis? Oh, they issued an objection, but they stayed with the Sons of Korhal to enjoy the victory, didn't they? Civilians were pretty explicitly not spared in that one.

Kerrigan was delusional and believed Arcturus would come around. Raynor left. What victory did he enjoy? What the hell are you talking about?

So we're agreed that she's spared both military personnel and civilians when they weren't a threat to her. You're off to a great start with your position there.

She didn't spare crap. She smashed that base, killed a ton of people on Char, and only after Warfield pleaded with her by bringing up Jim did she consider letting injured soldiers evacuate. That's the only time she spares civilians, when Jim is involved.

Man, I really wish I'd said something like "It's almost like the entire RTS genre is built on large scale warfare on the flimsiest of pretexts." so you would have known what the point was instead of completely flailing about.

"Moria is the richest resource node in the sector."

I'm sorry, I thought you were trying to make your argument remotely relative to the topic at hand. Proceed with the false analogies as per normal then.

"Kerrigan is the greatest monster in history because she destroyed the military troops of an enemy who was trying to kill her, but Raynor and Fenix are a-ok for launching a brutal murder party on a neutral faction and turning their miners into zombified living bombs, because those people somehow believed they were entitled to owning their own stuff."

Ok, let me kill off some brain cells and assume that Raynor and Fenix are assholes for assaulting a faction that allied themselves with the UED, who were going to enslave everyone. How does this justify Kerrigan's mass murder of multiple planets?

Yeah, I've read your posts. I didn't expect you to be impressed by argument from ignorance.

Fixed that for you.

Sorry, but your position that planets with lights, industrial complexes and buildings on them are devoid of civilians is completely idiotic. Tell me again about how the Brood Mothers would have went out of their way to spare them?