[Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts

[Turalyon]

Maybe, but going for the whole 'it's a chance to save those people' really echoes Raynor's own argument from the previous mission - "I'll go down there now, and do what I can. You send in some militia and we'll save those folks. Trust me." Obviously the player character is mostly a blank slate, but the repeated theme seems deliberate. You'll note that he doesn't utilise the same approach for the Magistrate and for Duke either.

That's an interesting perspective to take but I'm still more inclined to think Mengsks speech to the Magistrate is still more of him exploiting the situation than it is about Mengsk reading the guy (and by extension being a good reader of other people in general). The large reason being is that there is no interaction between Mengsk and the Magistrate. And no, it's not just because it's impossible due the Magistrate being the player character and the game not being an RPG. It's essentially because Mengsk comes out nowhere, makes a declarative speech and then expects whoever listens to accept his reasoning. There's no "reading of the magistrate" to be had. What Mengsk has done instead is read the situation before making that speech to the magistrate: He knows that a magistrate is responsible for people and has some sway/authority over them, that the Confederates have abandoned them and then subsequently left for dead to the Zerg. This is an ample opportunity for him to swoop in.

Whilst you say that this approach is different when it comes to Duke, it is and it isn't. If want to look at him reading the person (which is harder to gain evidence to suggest so), then sure, you can see it as different approach but I somewhat beg to differ. Duke's situation is actually very similar to the Magistrate's in Desperate Alliance as I described above. You'll also see that Mengsk's first approach to Duke is similar to the one he gives the magistrate in that he's trying to impart "reason" on a guy that he assumes will listen to it. He gets rebuffed and then starts getting annoyed and then tries to force an ultimatum and then finally gets him to come around by making a deal/exchange with him. Sure, you could say the fact that he got him onboard eventually was due to Mengsk being able to read Duke eventually, but that Mengsk had to negotiate does not necessarily mean he's good at reading people.

Eh, you're trying to reduce this to an overly simplistic "Mengsk is either right 100% of the time, or 0% of the time". Instead, view it as a learning experience that gives him more information on how Raynor ticks.

Not really. I'm not an expert reader of people but I can clearly say that Raynor is not a very difficult man to read. He showed more vehemence to Mengsk's proposed actions than Kerrigan did and yet Kerrigan is the one consigned to a suicide mission on the possible implication that she has or will become a liability (I'm ignoring the true reason from the EU here mind you) and Raynor is not? This does not speak of a person who's really that good at reading people and making choices/acting off that ability. Seems more to me that he's reading people wrongly but instead perhaps reading the situation in a utilitarian way (which would seem correct to Mengsk) instead.

He doesn't need to believe that this was always Raynor's intention. The wound's still there even if Raynor had accepted that she couldn't be saved. Remember that the barb isn't about saving Kerrigan, it's about saving himself - if Raynor's accepted that Kerrigan cannot be saved, then he's reminding Raynor of what a failure he is.

This all sounds good but a part of me still feels where ascribing too much regard for Mengsk and his supposed ability to cut people with his intimate knowledge of people on just this one quote. Recent history does not indicate he's that good.

Now Mengsk's behaviour in Brood War is one of the things I tend to try to forget . I do believe that the writers should be allowed to move past those bad decisions, but even if you don't, there's no shortage of bad Arcturus moments in StarCraft II either, sadly.

You're not the only one who wants to forget Mengsk's behaviour in BW but unfortunately, this is what we have and it suggests he's not good at reading people at all. Continuity can be the devil in this circumstance.

As to Mengsk in Sc2, his depiction as a whole is such a caricature that not even that one line in WoL you like can save him. I'm of the opinion that's why he "had" to eventually die in the narrative because it was the one development that people could still possibly care about for the character, if at all. I feel the same way about why Zeratul had to die in LotV as well.

[FanaticTemplar]

That's an interesting perspective to take but I'm still more inclined to think Mengsks speech to the Magistrate is still more of him exploiting the situation than it is about Mengsk reading the guy (and by extension being a good reader of other people in general). The large reason being is that there is no interaction between Mengsk and the Magistrate. And no, it's not just because it's impossible due the Magistrate being the player character and the game not being an RPG. It's essentially because Mengsk comes out nowhere, makes a declarative speech and then expects whoever listens to accept his reasoning. There's no "reading of the magistrate" to be had. What Mengsk has done instead is read the situation before making that speech to the magistrate: He knows that a magistrate is responsible for people and has some sway/authority over them, that the Confederates have abandoned them and then subsequently left for dead to the Zerg. This is an ample opportunity for him to swoop in.

Whilst you say that this approach is different when it comes to Duke, it is and it isn't. If want to look at him reading the person (which is harder to gain evidence to suggest so), then sure, you can see it as different approach but I somewhat beg to differ. Duke's situation is actually very similar to the Magistrate's in Desperate Alliance as I described above. You'll also see that Mengsk's first approach to Duke is similar to the one he gives the magistrate in that he's trying to impart "reason" on a guy that he assumes will listen to it. He gets rebuffed and then starts getting annoyed and then tries to force an ultimatum and then finally gets him to come around by making a deal/exchange with him. Sure, you could say the fact that he got him onboard eventually was due to Mengsk being able to read Duke eventually, but that Mengsk had to negotiate does not necessarily mean he's good at reading people.

While he tries to be reasonable to both, with the Magistrate he's appealing to duty and responsibility, and with Duke it's a lot more pragmatic, about the failure of the Confederacy and joining the winning side. And the failure isn't so much in going for pragmatism, it's that Duke isn't especially interested in the fate of the Confederacy and wants to know what's in it for him, specifically.

As to the Magistrate, there may be no direct interaction, but Mengsk has clearly looked him up. One of the first things he says is that he expects that Magistrate to react a certain way due to his reputation.

Not really. I'm not an expert reader of people but I can clearly say that Raynor is not a very difficult man to read. He showed more vehemence to Mengsk's proposed actions than Kerrigan did and yet Kerrigan is the one consigned to a suicide mission on the possible implication that she has or will become a liability (I'm ignoring the true reason from the EU here mind you) and Raynor is not? This does not speak of a person who's really that good at reading people and making choices/acting off that ability. Seems more to me that he's reading people wrongly but instead perhaps reading the situation in a utilitarian way (which would seem correct to Mengsk) instead.

I don't know about that. Did Mengsk actually believe Raynor would be fine with New Gettysburg? His speech afterward has always sounded incredibly fake to me, and I always assumed he didn't expect it to work and was putting no effort into it, but still had to throw it out just in case. Maybe that's just my perspective though. Either way, I've always wondered why he didn't send Raynor out to die with Kerrigan. It seems unfathomable that he wouldn't know about his objections. Maybe he feared that Raynor would actually refuse the order. Or maybe he feared that Raynor would have a plan to escape with some of his own loyal people, and that they'd both escape if Raynor was down there.

This all sounds good but a part of me still feels where ascribing too much regard for Mengsk and his supposed ability to cut people with his intimate knowledge of people on just this one quote. Recent history does not indicate he's that good.

Well, I consider his incompetence in Brood War to be a failure at writing the character, but if you want to believe that the character is truly inept and this competent display is the failed writing, then that's your right, but just as I have to accept that Brood War actually happened, you also have to accept that this actually happened too .

[DarthYam]

No it isn't.

The execution might have been bad (I don't think it is) but that's not bad writing to have a character betray their values and their ethics when something horrible happens to them.

Being betrayed by someone you TRUSTED and being genetically manipulated by an enormous hive mind would mess up your head regardless of any physical changes. Hell, I'm not even sure that the Confederacy DIDN'T mess her up. She murders Lieutenant Rumm in Uprising pretty brutally. It could all be there, bubbling under the surface, with only her own guilt, Raynor's friendship and Mengsk's guidance keeping it at bay. Let's not forget that Kerrigan is a TRAINED military assassin working for an insurgent rebel group. She is a nice woman to speak to, but she's still a killer.

Now that's not really apparent from StarCraft's narrative (just Uprising's).

But even so, there are plenty of well established good books and stories that involve a character turning on everything they believed in. Some of the best.

Going back, again, to Shakespeare. We have MacBeth. He spends the first act of the book thinking about how abhorrent the idea of murdering the king is. And then he does it because his wife basically clucks like a chicken and questions his manhood.

Except Kerrigan in BW was snidely whiplash. In SC1 she was complex (she had a dark side but at the same time had a clear sense of morality. She even hated using the zerg on the people who tortured her.) In Brood War it's a complete 180 to evil for the sake of being evil. Also, there was the fact that the overmind ordered Kerrigan to slaughter every single one of the terrans after she emerged....and she DISOBEYED HIM!!!!!! That's not a small matter.

Anyway, I was not impressed by Kerrigan's transition to BW. Her arc in Heart of the Swarm (conflicted about what to do, than obsessed with revenge to the point she'll do whatever it takes to finally doing a heel turn after a heel realization) was more believable. I really think that people are looking at Brood War with rose colored glasses and refusing to admit that in some ways Brood War was WORSE.

Yes I said it. Brood War's story was shit.

Also, Nissa cowardly dodged some of the points FanaticTemplar made about Tassadar

Quote Originally Posted by Nissa View Post
1. Tassadar was repentant. Kerri was not.
Kerrigan was plenty repentant after she got deinfested. Tassadar was "repentant" in the sense that he literally says "Whatever leniency I extended to you and your comrades before, may have been in error.". He believes he was not harsh enough with the Terrans.

Quote Originally Posted by Nissa View Post
2. Tassadar was chaotic in his pursuit of good. Kerri was violent in her pursuit of personal goals.
"Planetary genocide because I was told to" is less "chaotic" and more "Neuremberg defense".

Of course, if you want to go the route where this was necessary to prevent the Zerg apocalypse, it also bears mentioning that his decision to abandon that method directly lead to the creation of the Queen of Blades.

Quote Originally Posted by Nissa View Post
3. Tassadar restrained himself despite his orders. Kerri relished in punishing her enemies.
Kerrigan spared Raynor and his men, despite the Overmind's orders.

Quote Originally Posted by Nissa View Post
4. Tassadar showed himself eager to change when confronted with new ideas. Kerri wants what she wants, damn the consequences.
Kerrigan actually changed.

Quote Originally Posted by Nissa View Post
5. Tassadar and Jim were buds, and not people forced into an artificial relationship.
"Hey, are you the guy who wiped out my planet? Let's develop a natural relationship based on that! Not like this artificial notion of "falling for a coworker", who ever heard of anything stupid like that?"

Quote Originally Posted by Nissa View Post
That, and forgiving a person is entirely different from falling in love with them. I could buy that Raynor might forgive her if it were under credible circumstances. I will never accept that Raynor would then choose to love her, or so much as trust her, ever again.

Wait, wait, you forgot one!

6. Tassadar was acting of his own free will, Kerrigan WAS POSSESSED BY EVIL ALIENS.

In some ways Raynor's friendship with Tassadar made less sense. Kerrigan also showed good traits and in a way Tassadar was also an asshole. He used the "following orders" card. If he and Raynor start out hostile and evolve to friends it makes sense.

That's another thing. Heart Kerrigan EVOLVES as a character. She starts out conflicted, than she's more amoral, than she finally is willing to do the right thing even though she has no incentive (the "but she was just doing it for Raynor" is tosh. Kerrigan was genuinely surprised when he intervened so it's all but stated that she assumed any chance at reconciliation was gone.) In short, Kerrigan actually evolves over the course of the story. In Brood War she's evil from go.

[Gradius]

Except Kerrigan in BW was snidely whiplash. In SC1 she was complex (she had a dark side but at the same time had a clear sense of morality. She even hated using the zerg on the people who tortured her.) In Brood War it's a complete 180 to evil for the sake of being evil.

Better than HoTS where it's evil masquerading as good or "misunderstood anti-hero". There are still people who defend Kerrigan's actions to destroy entire planets to get revenge on one guy, because that's what Blizzard was pushing.

She even hated using the zerg on the people who tortured her.

Quite ironic then that she goes on to unleash the zerg on multiple worlds in HoTS for a guy that didn't treat her half as bad as those people. That's one way to get a character completely wrong.

Also, there was the fact that the overmind ordered Kerrigan to slaughter every single one of the terrans after she emerged....and she DISOBEYED HIM!!!!!! That's not a small matter.

Explained in the game. The greatness of her spirit has been left to her.

That's what makes it interesting. We wonder how much of the original Sarah is still in there, and that question is finally answered in BW when Raynor vows to kill her. At this point, the insipid love story that people pretend exists should have had its final nail in the coffin if it didn't already happen after she turned into a disgusting bug creature.

Anyway, I was not impressed by Kerrigan's transition to BW. Her arc in Heart of the Swarm (conflicted about what to do, than obsessed with revenge to the point she'll do whatever it takes to finally doing a heel turn after a heel realization) was more believable.

Explain how she's conflicted beyond "feels bad about it once in a while". Plans to get revenge on Mengsk before he attacks Umoja. Ends up getting revenge on Mengsk and everything else she ever wanted because her and Raynor are Metzen's favorite characters. Wow, cool story bro. Very deep development.

I really think that people are looking at Brood War with rose colored glasses and refusing to admit that in some ways Brood War was WORSE.

Yes I said it. Brood War's story was shit.

Take off your fanboy goggles. It can't be nostalgia because I replayed BW a few months ago. And what do you know, it's still decent, and SC2 is still shit in comparison. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[ragnarok]

That's another thing. Heart Kerrigan EVOLVES as a character. She starts out conflicted, than she's more amoral, than she finally is willing to do the right thing even though she has no incentive (the "but she was just doing it for Raynor" is tosh. Kerrigan was genuinely surprised when he intervened so it's all but stated that she assumed any chance at reconciliation was gone.) In short, Kerrigan actually evolves over the course of the story. In Brood War she's evil from go.

Actually to say that she did it for anyone else is really hard to say. Sure she evolved over the course of the story, but she did so in the beliefs she belonged more and more into the swarm, even after finding out Raynor was still alive. The problem with HotS was that she could have had redemption at the beginning if she reached for it, she chose not to. She instead chose to go for Mengsk regardless of the cost, and only after the Moros did she finally begin to see she had gone too far in all this. If Raynor HAD died, it would have been hard for anyone to convince her not to kill everyone in the Dominion just to get to Mengsk.

Raynor's reception to her on the Moros was the only reason why she endorsed Valerian to take over the Dominion once the Korhal invasion ends as she realized unless she put a limit to all this, she'll have learned nothing, and Raynor's efforts all these years would have been a complete waste. Ultimately almost all her mercies shown were simply for the sake to vindicate his actions all these years.

- - - Updated - - -

Quite ironic then that she goes on to unleash the zerg on multiple worlds in HoTS for a guy that didn't treat her half as bad as those people. That's one way to get a character completely wrong.

Is it really that hard for you to see that she felt the Dominion was no different than Mengsk?

Explain how she's conflicted beyond "feels bad about it once in a while". Plans to get revenge on Mengsk before he attacks Umoja. Ends up getting revenge on Mengsk and everything else she ever wanted because her and Raynor are Metzen's favorite characters. Wow, cool story bro. Very deep development.

The revenge part was necessary, it's just that she wasn't sure how to carry it out back then, not at the beginning of the game anyways. I keep telling you, anger can cause people to think VERY irrationally

[FanaticTemplar]

Quite ironic then that she goes on to unleash the zerg on multiple worlds in HoTS for a guy that didn't treat her half as bad as those people. That's one way to get a character completely wrong.

Hmm?

I try to avoid replaying Heart of the Swarm because I can't stand the hero focused gameplay, but I thought she only attacked Dominion military targets?

[Gradius]

Hmm?

I try to avoid replaying Heart of the Swarm because I can't stand the hero focused gameplay, but I thought she only attacked Dominion military targets?

Little bit more than that: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/10160956386

Even so, if you're trying to kill one guy, Kerrigan's goal should have been assassination, not planetary warfare.

[Nissa]

Also, Nissa cowardly dodged some of the points FanaticTemplar made about Tassadar

No, I disregarded them because FanaticTemplar wasn't getting my point, and I lost the will to debate him. That, and textwalls are overwhelming. This is an extremely presumptuous thing of you to say, and even if it were true, it's not your problem. Talk Starcraft but don't drag me into your apparent need to mock strangers on the internet.

[FanaticTemplar]

EDIT: Okay, so for this I had to read your Battle.net posts, then replay parts of Heart of the Swarm, which I hate, then I had to fish out a something like two hour video of all the cutscenes in the game trying to catch one of the parts where Kerrigan orders her Brood Mothers on their errands, and all that for some pretty weak arguments, so I kind of ran out of patience over the course of this post. I apologise for getting sarcastic and acerbic, especially by the end.

Little bit more than that: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/10160956386

Yeah, so I actually went back to play some missions in Heart of the Swarm to verify your claims, and yeah, I'm smelling a lot of bullshit there.

Takes place on a Dominion security world, Calus. As is the basic theme of the evolution missions, the swarm was already invading this world, and they had discovered essence on it after-the-fact. The world itself has absolutely nothing to do with Mengsk or Kerrigan's war against him, and culminates in the slaugther of random innocent people. Virtually the same thing happens on the splitter strain planet.

So what I see while playing the game is that Kerrigan's attacking a Dominion outpost and that those innocents are Marines, Siege Tanks, Bunkers, Vikings and Thors.

It's much the same for the other missions too, except where they involve the Protoss (I have no idea why Kerrigan's fighting the Protoss). In the Baneling mission you destroy a Dominion mining facility, in the Hydralisk mission, one of your Hive clusters is under attack by the Dominion's elite infestation specialist division of innocents. And at this point, I think I've seen enough. I don't like Heart of the Swarm enough to confirm that this is going to be the same story for everything else in that post, but I can guess.

This is the source of your outrage? This is in contrast to what, exactly? I've already brought up Tassadar and his repeated planetary genocides. How about that time Raynor and Fenix unleashed the Swarm on a neutral faction to steal their stuff and transform their miners into zombified living bombs? Remember when Artanis and Zeratul attacked a Dominion world because the Protoss forgot a crystal there ages ago and now they want it back? And in light of how well Infested Kerrigan slaughtered those Terrans, Zeratul figures that maybe he judged her too harshly?

Throughout the campaign Kerrigan gives multiple orders to brood mothers to destroy planets. We watch in one instance as the lights all over one planet are engulfed in creep, and again, we have no reason to believe that the brood mothers stopped to make their task harder in order to save civilians.

I've tried to hunt down those scenes and the one I've found was all about attacking Dominion military assets. In this case, the shipyards of Jontur II. The visuals of planets being engulfed in creep are symbolic, unless you actually believe that the entire planet was infested by a single Brood Mother before she even had the time to say "It shall be done, my Queen". You have no reason to believe the civilians were spared? You also have no reason to believe they weren't. I don't even have a reason to believe there were any there in the first place - from the example of Valhalla we know that the Dominion had military facilities on completely uninhabited worlds.

Furthermore, even on worlds dedicated to 100% military production, there are still going to be civilians working the factories.

She destroys buildings. Truly, this series has never seen such a monster.

Hey, remember in The Jacobs Installation when Raynor attacks a military installation that actually has these units clearly labeled "Civilian" that are super murderable?

'Cause I'm sure none of those guys were murdered on this completely opportunistic raid.

Kerrigan spared the civilians on these planets like she did on Korhal.

Unfortunately all the evidence seems to contradict this hypothesis. Kerrigan had to be convinced to spare civlians on Korhal by Valerian twice. First, when she discusses the invasion with him and he asks her to land outside Augustgrad. Second, when Kerrigan argues that sparing civilians would cause Mengsk to "spot the pattern" in her movements. Who honestly believes that Kerrigan bothered sparing civlians on other planets if she has to be convinced to do it here? Twice. It's almost as if she only agrees to spare civilians because Raynor is watching in the background.

Her brood mothers are still evil and sadistic. Zagara enjoys the feel of snapping protoss bones in her claws, as well as killing everyone that's not zerg. When Kerrigan orders planets destroyed, does anybody honestly believe that these same brood mothers would have went out of their way to spare civilians? Kerrigan NEVER says "spare the civilians". She only says "kill all in your path" or "leave no survivors". All I ask for is one shred of evidence that Kerrigan bothered sparing civilians before Korhal.

Done.

Even so, if you're trying to kill one guy, Kerrigan's goal should have been assassination, not planetary warfare.

Because that game didn't have enough baseless missions.

It's almost like the entire RTS genre is built on large scale warfare on the flimsiest of pretexts.

OVERMIND: I invaded Terran space and laid waste to countless worlds so I could get my hands on this prize, the only thing that can ensure my victory over the Protoss... better leave it behind and invade the Protoss without it anyway.

DUKE: Hey, we're stuck on this planet getting our arses handed to us by the Zerg. Better start a fight with the Protoss too!
TASSADAR: I too am stuck on this planet having my arse handed to me by the Zerg. I support your proposal entirely!

TASSADAR: I can't bear to see my brethren murdering one another, so I surrender. Good luck to all my supporters in their continued slaughter of my brethren, don't give up the fight!
FENIX: I guess we should attack the Conclave to liberate Tassadar.

ZERATUL: We're going on this planet to obtain a crystal. Our goal is planetary warfare, not theft.

ARTANIS: The United Earth Directorate has set up a planetary blockade against us!
ZERATUL: Can't we teleport?
ARTANIS: No, we have to fight them.

ARTANIS: I have a bold plan to deal a lot of superficial damage to the Overmind!
ZERATUL: Are we going to bombard it from orbit?
ARTANIS: No, we're going to get into melee range and hit it with our laserswords. Except the Dark Templar. Dark Templar are not allowed to hit it with their laserswords.

ALDARIS: I have discovered that your leader is mindslaved to Kerrigan! Not that I intend to tell you this in any of my multiple speeches, that might cause us to debate and consider the issue instead of having a futile and harmful civil war.

DUGALLE: Our objective here is to eliminate Arcturus Mengsk. He is our priority threat in this expedition to neutralise the aliens. For some reason.
MENGSK: Suckers, I escaped!
DUGALLE: Damn, okay, now our objective is to eliminate Arcturus Mengsk.
MENGSK: Nope! Still escaping!
DUGALLE: Well, we had to have the exact same failure twice in a row, otherwise what kind of story would it be?

STUKOV: Duran, are you betraying us?
DURAN: La la la la la! I can't hear you!
STUKOV: Yep, he's betraying us. Captain, inform DuGalle of this, I've got other things to do.
CAPTAIN: ...
DURAN: Hey Admiral, Stukov's a traitor.
DUGALLE: Really?
CAPTAIN: ...
DUGALLE: Well, guess we need to kill him then.

KERRIGAN: Okay guys, we need to invade Moria to get some resources.
RAYNOR: Can't we get these resources literally anywhere?
KERRIGAN: Invade the damned planet.
FENIX: Oh, oh, pick me!

I swear, you'd think the entire story was just cooked up to justify going from one RTS map to the next.

EDIT:

No, I disregarded them because FanaticTemplar wasn't getting my point

I bet.

[Nissa]

Lol. Um, to be fair, Kerrigan's role for the Overmind was primarily a genetic one. They didn't specifically need her, they needed to assimilate psychics to add their genetic material to the swarm. So, technically they had what they needed when Kerri was fully infested.

Or leaving her behind was part of this plan, but got interrupted. I dunno.