[Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts

[DarthYam]

That's how it always works in real life. When you've been abused your whole life and then suddenly turned loose, you go crazy with power right away, and that can take years to fix, sometimes it's not even fixable.

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Not that, DarthYam. This is what happens when you go through a life of abuse. You tend to lash out at others, even those who never once wronged you, simply because you now have the power to do something about it. Going crazy with power happens a lot in this case, I've seen it happen in real life.

I can see her being angry at the world and lashing out (hell that's what she does in heart of the swarm). But going from an idealist with clear standards to torturing for the evulz is bad writing.

[ragnarok]

I can see her being angry at the world and lashing out (hell that's what she does in heart of the swarm). But going from an idealist with clear standards to torturing for the evulz is bad writing.

And that was exactly the flaw that HotS suffered from

[Turalyon]

Aah, epic walls of text, how I missed thee! I'm kinda feeling missed out here.

Not sure that would've been enough for Raynor to consider allying with a Mengsk, though.

That's a good point. Makes me wonder what Raynor's reaction would be if Valerian saying that he could offer a chance to kill Kerrigan (instead of a chance to save her) in Heir Apparent. Would he have just shot him then and there?

Then again, Raynor doesn't really gain much from an alliance with Valerian since Raynor pretty much ends up doing things all on his own anyway. Valerian's main purpose/value in the structure of the narrative is really just to give exposition about the artifact and to trigger the beginning of the end of WoL's plot. It doesn't really necessitate Raynor having to be buddy-buddy with Valerian to make their association an alliance of convenience more than anything else.

I mean, it's kinda odd in WoL that Valerian knows Raynor so well that he can actually determine Raynor's wish of saving Kerrigan before he's even met the man or likely know of anything about him at all if Mengsk Snr had anything to do with it. Now, we don't know if it was somehow made public, but the last transmission that Raynor ever made regarding Kerrigan was his vehemence in killing her in True Colors. How does Valerian know otherwise? It'd be more plausible for him to think that Raynor wants to kill Kerrigan since he has record of him saying that. Afterall, an adjutant recording of Mengsk's rant in The Hammer Falls was available, why not that?

His offer to ask Raynor's help in killing Kerrigan still works since a) he believes Raynor's knowledge of Kerrigan maybe an asset in the upcoming battle and b) it still preys on Raynor wanting some sort of closure/redemption regarding Kerrigan. As to Raynor not accepting the alliance if the reveal was the killing (instead of the saving of) Kerrigan, well, one has consider what made him accept Valerians' offer in WoL in the first place. He's just trusting Valerian at his word, when he could've been lying. Therefore, I don't think Raynor's inherent distrust of the Mengsk family is really that strong to deny the offer of an alliance to kill Kerrigan (if it was revealed to be that) since in WoL, he just takes/trusts Valerian's word that he can save her as is. If Raynor really hated the Mengsk family, he would be more distrusting of/unwilling to ally with Valerian if he offered to save her since his supposed bad perception of the Mengsks would make him thinks there's a trick. I think Raynor would trust Valerian more if he revealed he intended to kill her.

Still, if that wasn't enough for Raynor to permit himself a temporary alliance with Valerian, it could've easily been a perfect spot to display some of that prime Mengsk assholery by having Valerian insinuating that Raynor would be best to help him. By joining with Valerian, Raynor would get kudos and a pardon when Valerian reaps the benefit of ending the threat of the Zerg. The alternative is that he'd just offer Raynor up to Mengsk Snr. if he refused to comply, whilst Valerian alone reaps the benefit of ending the threat of Kerrigan but also delivering the "terrorist" Raynor to "justice". Of course, it would need to rejig the Heir Apparent cinematic for that to work (which I don't mind since it's ludicrous enough that Raynor got as far as he did in almost killing Valerian and for Valerian being so dumb to risk his life just for a dramatic introduction) but it would help sell that Valerian meant business and that he had some real cajones.

[Nissa]

Yes, it was. I've already given you the quotes. Kerrigan does practically nothing of interest in Wings of Liberty.

Again, it's not what she's doing, it's that she's the driving motivator, and the only real consequence of the WoL. Nothing else Raynor does matters.

Well, yeah. But comparing her to a woman getting possessed by an alien isn't really a metaphor so much as a description.

Which is why your rabid dog metaphor doesn't work.

Yeah, that's all in your head. The characterisation is entirely consistent with all of Raynor's character throughout StarCraft and Brood War. If you think he turned around completely after he left the game, that's not actual canon.

All in my head? What, so he threatened to kill her because he loved her? You keep using "throughout" and not looking at how it ends between them. Raynor's behavior towards her in SC is mostly irrelevant, because by the end of BW they've both changed. You can't use Raynor's earlier feelings to justify his behavior after he's been horribly betrayed by Kerrigan in the final Zerg missions. Raynor has trusted too much and been burned too much for it to work. It appears you so badly want to see this as a possible romance, that you're willing to ignore what's right in front of your eyes.


And no, that's not the story of WoL. WoL is a collection of mismatched storylines where a still somewhat optimistic "Raynor" attempts to do various things. His depression is mentioned, but rarely plot-affective. He isn't pulled back from despair and he's not obviously motivated by killing Kerrigan. WoL only uses his depression as occasional set-dressing.

Still, if that wasn't enough for Raynor to permit himself a temporary alliance with Valerian, it could've easily been a perfect spot to display some of that prime Mengsk assholery by having Valerian insinuating that Raynor would be best to help him. By joining with Valerian, Raynor would get kudos and a pardon when Valerian reaps the benefit of ending the threat of the Zerg. The alternative is that he'd just offer Raynor up to Mengsk Snr. if he refused to comply, whilst Valerian alone reaps the benefit of ending the threat of Kerrigan but also delivering the "terrorist" Raynor to "justice". Of course, it would need to rejig the Heir Apparent cinematic for that to work (which I don't mind since it's ludicrous enough that Raynor got as far as he did in almost killing Valerian and for Valerian being so dumb to risk his life just for a dramatic introduction) but it would help sell that Valerian meant business and that he had some real cajones.

Does anybody else feel Valerian was weak in characterization? His arc in SC2 was a lot like his arc in the Dark Templar Saga -- at first, he's a somewhat mysterious possible analogue of his father, while later the authors want to make very, very sure that Valerian is meant to be a good guy. This is especially awkward in the DT Saga, where a character kills her lover for betraying her to Valerian. And then Valerian turns out to be nice. Super messed up, right there.

In the games, Val's just some leadership substitute to prepare for Blizz wanting to kill Mengsk off. He's not interesting or plot-dramatic in any way. Quite frankly, they might as well have kept Papa Mengsk. Mengsk's story might have been "already told", but Valerian never had one to begin with.

[TheEconomist]

Your vision of a world where there were no romantic feelings between Raynor and Kerrigan in StarCraft is a mystifying one.

Surely I'm misinterpreting this. Are you saying the romance arch was there from the beginning? I don't mean fondness, infatuation, or attraction, I mean, "I'll go to the ends of the universe because I still love you" kind of romance. You're saying that was there from the beginning?

[ragnarok]

Surely I'm misinterpreting this. Are you saying the romance arch was there from the beginning? I don't mean fondness, infatuation, or attraction, I mean, "I'll go to the ends of the universe because I still love you" kind of romance. You're saying that was there from the beginning?

It was hard to say, but at the very least before Fenix's death in BW, you can see Raynor was willing to go a VERY long distance to save Kerrigan.

[FanaticTemplar]

That's a good point. Makes me wonder what Raynor's reaction would be if Valerian saying that he could offer a chance to kill Kerrigan (instead of a chance to save her) in Heir Apparent. Would he have just shot him then and there?

Good question. I don't know if he'd shoot Valerian just for being Arcturus' son, honestly.

Then again, Raynor doesn't really gain much from an alliance with Valerian since Raynor pretty much ends up doing things all on his own anyway. Valerian's main purpose/value in the structure of the narrative is really just to give exposition about the artifact and to trigger the beginning of the end of WoL's plot. It doesn't really necessitate Raynor having to be buddy-buddy with Valerian to make their association an alliance of convenience more than anything else.

Well, Valerian provides our Battlecruisers, and it's implied that we take command of the Dominion forces on Char through Gates of Hell and Warfield leaving to get his new arm, so he provides mostly a justification for having enough forces to attack Char at all. He's kinda like General Duke from Rebel Yell in that.

I mean, it's kinda odd in WoL that Valerian knows Raynor so well that he can actually determine Raynor's wish of saving Kerrigan before he's even met the man or likely know of anything about him at all if Mengsk Snr had anything to do with it. Now, we don't know if it was somehow made public, but the last transmission that Raynor ever made regarding Kerrigan was his vehemence in killing her in True Colors. How does Valerian know otherwise? It'd be more plausible for him to think that Raynor wants to kill Kerrigan since he has record of him saying that. Afterall, an adjutant recording of Mengsk's rant in The Hammer Falls was available, why not that?

I assumed he heard it from his father, as that Dangerous Game quote I love bringing up demonstrates, Arcturus had a good grasp on what was motivating Raynor.

Again, it's not what she's doing, it's that she's the driving motivator, and the only real consequence of the WoL. Nothing else Raynor does matters.

And as I've told you, being the triggering event does not make you the focus of the story. Stories are about journeys. The choices, obstacles, development and relationships are all Raynor's.

All in my head? What, so he threatened to kill her because he loved her?

He threatened to kill her because she needed to be put down. That doesn't change his established character.

And no, that's not the story of WoL. WoL is a collection of mismatched storylines where a still somewhat optimistic "Raynor" attempts to do various things. His depression is mentioned, but rarely plot-affective. He isn't pulled back from despair and he's not obviously motivated by killing Kerrigan. WoL only uses his depression as occasional set-dressing.

He's driven himself into a hole from which he can only be roused to perform some occasional bit of minor mischief when seeing Mengsk angers him enough. It takes the Zerg invasion for him to get reminded of all the people who are in desperate need of help, yet also of how much he has personally lost. He tries to do what's right, only to be relentlessly pursued by the ghosts of his past, until Valerian shows up to offer him one last chance to set his demons to rest, a final, desperate hope that drives him to sacrifice anything.

Does anybody else feel Valerian was weak in characterization?

Yes. I had hoped for more.

Surely I'm misinterpreting this. Are you saying the romance arch was there from the beginning? I don't mean fondness, infatuation, or attraction, I mean, "I'll go to the ends of the universe because I still love you" kind of romance. You're saying that was there from the beginning?

No, just the feelings.

[Turalyon]

Good question. I don't know if he'd shoot Valerian just for being Arcturus' son, honestly.

I was kinda half-joking with that question. If Raynor did go on to shoot Valerian it'd destroy the redemption angle of the story and his base-line archetype of being the good guy that most people and Blizz expect. Then again, it (having shot at Valerian) would've helped sell the notion that Raynor has been driven insane by the guilt, depression and alcoholism he is supposedly suffering from in WoL. Course, since he shows competence and a general good-hearted nature in the previous missions prior to that point, they'd have to tweak the outcomes and the perspective of those considerably to make that insane notion stick. Then again, to me, Raynor's arc in WoL only makes sense if I think of him as being somewhat insane anyway...

Well, Valerian provides our Battlecruisers, and it's implied that we take command of the Dominion forces on Char through Gates of Hell and Warfield leaving to get his new arm, so he provides mostly a justification for having enough forces to attack Char at all. He's kinda like General Duke from Rebel Yell in that.

Yeah, but this just goes hand-in-hand with Valerian just really being used as a plot device to trigger the the start of the ending of WoL's story. Whilst Duke does serve a similar purpose, it's a lot more disguised and perfunctory (in a good way) compared to how Valerian is utilised in the narrative.

Within the narrative itself, it becomes clear that Valerian and Warfield are more of a liability to Raynor than of any real benefit/assistance. The army of battlecruisers they bring to Char are almost all destroyed in orbit before the Gates of Hell mission even starts, so it's kinda difficult to ascertain the value they had in assisting Raynor. Also, when compared to Raynor's previous exploits where on Korhal he was able to conduct Media Blitz by landing on the most fortified Terran world, causing a ruckus and escaping scot-free on the most fortified Terran planet in existence and his full-on engagement with a superior alien force in Safe Haven against his own small force (if you chose that path), one has to consider why Raynor couldn't have just gone it alone on Char at the end and not get the same result. The Zerg were already spread out thin throughout the sector afterall and they probably wouldn't have noticed Raynor's small band compared to Valerian's fleet (which got noticed and smashed). Why is this situation any different?

I assumed he heard it from his father, as that Dangerous Game quote I love bringing up demonstrates, Arcturus had a good grasp on what was motivating Raynor.

Be careful about reading too much into that Mengsk quote. We don't really know how Mengsk Snr actually knows that Raynor has a hidden Saviour complex/redemption fetish nor why Valerian would opt to believe anything Mengsk Snr has to say about Raynor. In Sc1, though he can manipulate people, he's not really that good at understanding other people since you yourself have commented that he quickly reverts to anger whenever things don't go his way (see how he gets snarky with Duke when he starts quibbling about not joining him or when Raynor rebukes him after New Gettysburg). And whilst Mengsk assuming Raynor has a Saviour Complex would hold from what we see in New Gettysburg, you have to realise that BW/True Colours (no matter how much you dislike it) did happen and that the most recent development on Raynor/Kerrigan front there up until WoL starts was that Raynor declared he would kill her if given the chance. Of course, this is assuming that Raynor's declaration was public but I think that's a safe assumption - Mengsk's forces being also present at the time (with Duke dying there) would have known about this surely.

And yes, whilst one can assume that like Raynor, everyone may have changed their minds and may developed new/different opinions in the 4 years between BW and WoL, we are not given any indication why and how that could be. Especially when it comes to Mengsk Snr, whom we see very little of in WoL.

[ragnarok]

Be careful about reading too much into that Mengsk quote. We don't really know how Mengsk Snr actually knows that Raynor has a hidden Saviour complex/redemption fetish nor why Valerian would opt to believe anything Mengsk Snr has to say about Raynor. In Sc1, though he can manipulate people, he's not really that good at understanding other people since you yourself have commented that he quickly reverts to anger whenever things don't go his way (see how he gets snarky with Duke when he starts quibbling about not joining him or when Raynor rebukes him after New Gettysburg). And whilst Mengsk assuming Raynor has a Saviour Complex would hold from what we see in New Gettysburg, you have to realise that BW/True Colours (no matter how much you dislike it) did happen and that the most recent development on Raynor/Kerrigan front there up until WoL starts was that Raynor declared he would kill her if given the chance. Of course, this is assuming that Raynor's declaration was public but I think that's a safe assumption - Mengsk's forces being also present at the time (with Duke dying there) would have known about this surely.

And yes, whilst one can assume that like Raynor, everyone may have changed their minds and may developed new/different opinions in the 4 years between BW and WoL, we are not given any indication why and how that could be. Especially when it comes to Mengsk Snr, whom we see very little of in WoL.

This is something I feel could have been Mengsk's god complex problem. Because of what happened in True Colors in BW, it's likely Mengsk was thinking that because Raynor had the savior complex, perhaps he could be persuaded to finally stop the rebellion against him and actually join him to deal with Kerrigan. She is, after all, the bigger threat. Remember, in the IMMEDIATE aftermath of the BW, no one could have known that she'd withdraw the swarm back to Char and wouldn't be heard from again for the new few years. In fact a lot of people had speculated she would use the swarm to finish the Protoss and Dominion off once the BW ended (this was back in like 2000, long before any work began for WoL).

For the part of people changing their minds and everything during the 4 years between BW and WoL, likely Mengsk felt the Zerg were not going to return, so he could focus on expanding the Dominion empire again. Raynor by this point had concluded he wasn't going to have much success against the swarm anyway, so he turned his attention back to bringing Mengsk to justice. This is exactly the reason why Mengsk began to use the Dominion propaganda machine to portray Raynor as "the worst traitor to humanity," and Raynor had no luck against that until finding the adjutant on Tarsonis. Likely the change in Mengsk's mentality is because he quickly concluded that it was pointless to talk to Raynor and convince him to give up the fight, the man just wasn't going to give in. And Mengsk's mentality was absolute: if you're not with him, you're against him.

[FanaticTemplar]

Yeah, but this just goes hand-in-hand with Valerian just really being used as a plot device to trigger the the start of the ending of WoL's story. Whilst Duke does serve a similar purpose, it's a lot more disguised and perfunctory (in a good way) compared to how Valerian is utilised in the narrative.

Agreed. It's not necessarily a bad role to have - not everybody can be a main character - but I was hoping he'd come into his own in the sequels, but nothing really happens with him. He's somewhat similar to Daggoth like that, actually. Fun fact, Valerian is the point of view character for the Terran campaign in my own headcanon sequel to the original StarCraft. So you could say I would have wanted better from him.

Within the narrative itself, it becomes clear that Valerian and Warfield are more of a liability to Raynor than of any real benefit/assistance. The army of battlecruisers they bring to Char are almost all destroyed in orbit before the Gates of Hell mission even starts, so it's kinda difficult to ascertain the value they had in assisting Raynor. Also, when compared to Raynor's previous exploits where on Korhal he was able to conduct Media Blitz by landing on the most fortified Terran world, causing a ruckus and escaping scot-free on the most fortified Terran planet in existence and his full-on engagement with a superior alien force in Safe Haven against his own small force (if you chose that path), one has to consider why Raynor couldn't have just gone it alone on Char at the end and not get the same result. The Zerg were already spread out thin throughout the sector afterall and they probably wouldn't have noticed Raynor's small band compared to Valerian's fleet (which got noticed and smashed). Why is this situation any different?

They probably could have played it as a more stealthy operation, with Raynor attacking under the distraction provided by the Dominion, I think that could have worked too. I don't actually have a problem with Valerian fucking up the invasion that bad though. He's young and inexperienced and thinks he knows a lot more than he actually does. I like that as a facet of his character.

Warfield should have known better though. He's not as bad as Duke, but then Duke just flew from failure to failure without giving a damn. It's like he was just a few years from retirement and had stopped giving a shit a long time ago. I'm oddly fascinated by the guy.

Be careful about reading too much into that Mengsk quote. We don't really know how Mengsk Snr actually knows that Raynor has a hidden Saviour complex/redemption fetish nor why Valerian would opt to believe anything Mengsk Snr has to say about Raynor. In Sc1, though he can manipulate people, he's not really that good at understanding other people since you yourself have commented that he quickly reverts to anger whenever things don't go his way (see how he gets snarky with Duke when he starts quibbling about not joining him or when Raynor rebukes him after New Gettysburg). And whilst Mengsk assuming Raynor has a Saviour Complex would hold from what we see in New Gettysburg, you have to realise that BW/True Colours (no matter how much you dislike it) did happen and that the most recent development on Raynor/Kerrigan front there up until WoL starts was that Raynor declared he would kill her if given the chance. Of course, this is assuming that Raynor's declaration was public but I think that's a safe assumption - Mengsk's forces being also present at the time (with Duke dying there) would have known about this surely.

And yes, whilst one can assume that like Raynor, everyone may have changed their minds and may developed new/different opinions in the 4 years between BW and WoL, we are not given any indication why and how that could be. Especially when it comes to Mengsk Snr, whom we see very little of in WoL.

I'm not certain what your perspective here is. True, it wouldn't be strange for Arcturus to read him badly, or for him to believe Raynor intends to kill Kerrigan. But he's also demonstrated that at other times he can accurately gauge people (like when he recruits the player character in Desperate Alliance) and he would also know of Raynor's track record with Kerrigan. So it's not like it's inconsistent for him to be straight on here, and having the villain cut straight to the deep emotional vulnerability of the hero is exactly the kind of move that one should want from a social-focused villain like Arcturus. Isn't this exactly what you want from Arcturus? I thought the disappointment people had was that he didn't have more scenes like this one?

EDIT: Incidentally, I don't dislike True Colors at all, I think it's one of the genuinely good points in the otherwise disappointing Brood War, alongside The Evacuation of Aiur and, if you're willing to accept the premise of the United Earth Directorate, Patriot's Blood.