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Thread: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts

  1. #191

    Default Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    Kerrigan is not like the Overmind. Last time I checked she can't be reconstituted once killed... unless you want me to expect DEM (which I kinda do now with Sc anyways unfortunately )
    What does that change? The Overmind is dead and the Zerg haven't stopped being a threat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    What's stretching? The Dominion is evil because it's associated with Mengsk, is it not? That's what makes Kerrigan's actions against them just, right?
    Do you really need me to explain to you that being a faction's prisoner and being a faction's ruler are different?

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    Just as you are making the assertion that Kerrigan attacking the Dominion is just.
    I'm asserting that it's no worse than what any other character in StarCraft has done, actually. But sure, we could give it a try. Do you want to use the wikipedia criteria for that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    That's good enough for me.
    You'll have to clarify that. Do you mean that you consider my claim sufficiently close to claiming that Kerrigan is good as to make no difference to you, or do you mean that you are satisfied with my position?

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    It didn't. That part (about being dangerous enough to give them pause - I didn't say it actually did) was said as a figure of speech to say that the Confeds know more about the Zerg and how dangerous they can be. If you wanted to include the EU and the precursor missions just before Sc1's Rebel Yell (yeah, yeah, I know how you feel about all that), the Confeds and Duke fought the Zerg on Chau Sara with limited success but was eventually overrun by Zerg anyway. That and Duke gets taken down by Zerg later during Rebel Yell. Besides, you didn't answer my question.
    I didn't answer the question because I'm not sure I agree with its presuppositions. I think I played Precursor ages ago, but I remember little of it. It seems to contradict Tassadar's overview of the situation on Chau Sara, where he expresses puzzlement that the Terrans have not attempted to aid the besieged planet. It's my perspective that the Confederates were greatly underestimating the threat posed by the Zerg, if their plan for the Psi Emitters was to use the Zerg against their enemies and then send the Confederate armies to 'mop up' the Zerg. Remember that the Overmind was not actually sending the Swarm to invade the Terran worlds, but seeding them and infesting them stealthily. I believe that if the Zerg were found and assaulted early enough in the process, the infestation could have been prevented.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    She's not fighting just Dark Templar/this new, additional threat though since there are regular Protoss there, too... unless you're saying they're not part of the original threat that she is needed to counter. I would find that hard to believe, not that it would make a lick of sense in the first place.
    Certainly, you could make the case that Tassadar's Fleet of the Executor was the major strength of the Protoss, or at least that the Overmind believed that, and I would concede that if so, that would justify the Overmind's change in motivation. But you'd need to support that with the game. By my reckoning the defenders on Aiur were more of a threat than Tassadar's broken fleet, something that should be pretty easily demonstrated by the fact that the Aiur Protoss went to Char and rescued Tassadar and the remnants of his fleet, all while still fighting back the Swarm's invasion of Aiur.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    This works both ways since I can replace "were" with "weren't" in the above statement and throw it back at you. Also, do you consider the Overmind successfully invading Aiur as the Protoss being no longer a threat? Not that Tasssadar or Zeratul or the Dark Templar or Aiur or anything Protoss related specifically apparently matters according to you... unless it suits your position.
    The only thing that matters to me is the plot's coherency. The plot of StarCraft revolves around the Swarm's invasion of Aiur to assimilate the Protoss, and the Protoss having to come together to survive. The only thing that connects the first half of the story - the Terrans and Char and Kerrigan and the Koprulu Expeditionary Fleet - with the rest of the plot is that the Overmind felt it needed to assimilate Humanity's psionic potential in order to achieve its goal. And yet, it invaded Aiur to assimilate the Protoss without Humanity's psionic potential. The motivation that ties the first act into the story is completely forgotten. There is no reason StarCraft could not have started with the Swarm invasion of Aiur in the story as it stands. The only element that connects the plot together has been forgotten.

    So you could change 'were' for 'weren't' but it wouldn't change a thing. It's the writers' responsibility to connect their story together, not mine, and not yours. I've already told you I accept your fanon explanation for what happened, but it changes nothing to the fact that the writers screwed up and left this giant plot hole in the story.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    What do you mean by "them"? I said I stopped talking about "Dark Templar specifically" not "Protoss in general". If I can't even talk about the Protoss when the topic is about them, I have no idea what else you want from me.
    What non-Tassadar-and-the-Dark-Templar Protoss did Kerrigan fight, if you're so adamant about not talking about Tassadar and the Dark Templar?

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    In the interests of reaching of a middle ground, I want you to try and consider the following interpretation. You mentioned in one of your previous posts about my position only being possible if the Overmind thought the Protoss were essentially defeated before it got to Aiur and that I needed evidence for it. What if this is actually true and already self-evident in the campaign? The manual states the Overmind considers what it seeks amongst the Terrans is the final determinant in its victory over the Protoss. This can be taken as to mean that the successful acquisition of psionic potential (Kerrigan) itself is synonymous and tantamount to the defeat of the Protoss even though it is not in actuality.

    It sort of makes sense given the Overmind likes to preordain and treats everything it does as some sort of manifest destiny. There's proof of this concept when it openly declares that what it has "wrought this day shall be the undoing of my enemies" in reference to Kerrigan's re-emergence and continues to proclaim victory at every other turn from thereonin. It also explains why the Overmind is nowhere near in-despair from any point in the campaign in contrary to what you believe because the Overmind was on the verge of "winning" more or less (in its mind) by the time the Overmind campaign starts (it has the chrysalis). Later on, it has "won" by the time Infested Kerrigan has hatched because it's final determinant is realised and that everything else that follows is a foregone conclusion. In that light, no matter what Infested Kerrigan does or does not do from that point, the Overmind has considered itself to be victorious just due to her very presence/existence.
    An interesting idea. You'd interpret Infested Kerrigan not as a weapon for the Protoss' destruction, but as some revelatory annunciation? There's actually quite a bit of interesting material to speculate about in that idea, especially in light of StarCraft II's retcons, but in the interest of remaining on track, I sadly must say that if this were true, I don't think that it has been made sufficiently clear in the game. But do bring it up again some other time, because I'd love to hear more thoughts on this.

    (How does my spellcheck recognise 'annunciation' but not 'revelatory'? I would've sworn the latter was more common.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    Sure, one could argue and say this was not explicitly mentioned but then again, neither is Raynor and Kerrigan being in love in Rebel Yell explicitly mentioned either. Somehow, people accept the Raynor/Kerrigan in love as fact even without Sc2 to confirm it all because it was seemingly "suggested". I can't see why "suggestion" is not good enough for the Overminds case here.
    Ah, that's not quite the same. I believed there's sufficient context in the original games to conclude a romantic attraction between the two (though I would not have imagined an actual relationship), but I would not say that this is sufficient basis for it becoming a major driving force of the plot. Not everything needs to be thoroughly explained, and as I've mentioned before, I am perfectly satisfied with your provided explanation to justify how things turned out. But when fanon needs to fill in something this integral to the game's storyline, then I accept that it's a plot hole.
    Zeratul: I have journeyed through the darkness between the most distant stars. I have beheld the births of negative-suns and borne witness to the entropy of entire realities...
    Aldaris: Did not! That doesn't even make sense!
    Zeratul: Shut up, I totally did!

  2. #192

    Default Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    What does that change? The Overmind is dead and the Zerg haven't stopped being a threat.
    The Zerg stopped being a threat at the end of Sc1 with the Overmind being dead... and then the DEMs in BW occurred. To Mengsk in Sc2, the Zerg is only part of the threat since it's really Kerrigan that is the threat. She's not dead by the end of WoL, so the threat of her and by extension, the Zerg still exists.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    Do you really need me to explain to you that being a faction's prisoner and being a faction's ruler are different?
    Do I really need to explain the use of at the end of my questions?

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    I'm asserting that it's no worse than what any other character in StarCraft has done, actually. But sure, we could give it a try. Do you want to use the wikipedia criteria for that?
    No need. I know enough of your position now to predict the direction it will take. I don't have any compulsion to refute it either way.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    You'll have to clarify that. Do you mean that you consider my claim sufficiently close to claiming that Kerrigan is good as to make no difference to you, or do you mean that you are satisfied with my position?
    Both. I guess the real question that is left now is whether Kerrigan's good deeds were enough - did she earn her redemption or was it just given to her? My money's still on her being an exaggerated "Karma Houdini".

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    I didn't answer the question because I'm not sure I agree with its presuppositions. I think I played Precursor ages ago, but I remember little of it. It seems to contradict Tassadar's overview of the situation on Chau Sara, where he expresses puzzlement that the Terrans have not attempted to aid the besieged planet. It's my perspective that the Confederates were greatly underestimating the threat posed by the Zerg, if their plan for the Psi Emitters was to use the Zerg against their enemies and then send the Confederate armies to 'mop up' the Zerg. Remember that the Overmind was not actually sending the Swarm to invade the Terran worlds, but seeding them and infesting them stealthily. I believe that if the Zerg were found and assaulted early enough in the process, the infestation could have been prevented.
    Eh, I'm still not entirely sure. For the Confeds to keep on underestimating the Zerg after what ultimately happened to Chau Sara (they couldn't save it) kinda gives the impression that they knowingly held the "idiot ball" - call me optimistic but I'd like to believe that an institution that has lasted >100 years would know better than to make such a monumentally continuous underestimation. Even so, the Confeds have more knowledge of the Zerg than the colonies who are invaded by them. I could understand why the Confeds would feel over-confident in handling the Zerg due to their misguided belief in being able to control them (in the initial stages at least) but why would they expect "lesser" peoples with no knowledge of the Zerg whatsoever to be able to stand up to them? Kinda defeats the purpose of using them at all if they can be defeated by small bands of local militia if you're asking me. Also, since the worlds were being stealthily infested, the colonies wouldn't have known about them until it was too late anyway. If the Confeds didn't redirect the colonists in the first place they wouldn't have given them a chance at defending themselves/destroying the Zerg in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    An interesting idea. You'd interpret Infested Kerrigan not as a weapon for the Protoss' destruction, but as some revelatory annunciation? There's actually quite a bit of interesting material to speculate about in that idea, especially in light of StarCraft II's retcons, but in the interest of remaining on track, I sadly must say that if this were true, I don't think that it has been made sufficiently clear in the game. But do bring it up again some other time, because I'd love to hear more thoughts on this.
    Ok, we're getting somewhere. I thought the interpretation I just gave was something I had made explicit earlier but it looks like I was mistaken and/or very unclear. I think had said something to the effect of the Overmind thinking of Kerrigan as some sort of "morale boost" for itself earlier on. It ties into the despair thing and how the Overmind shows no hint of despair whatsoever during the campaign. The Overmind's "despair" about the Protoss might is a perceived but self-imposed mental roadblock with which Kerrigan is essentially the perceived solution to. In other words, she is the victory condition rather than the means to get to a victory condition. If you can somehow filter this interpretation with all that I've said on this matter in rebuttal to your position, I'm hoping you can understand where my position is coming from better.

    I can see why this would be unclear in the game and that's largely because by the time the Overmind campaign has started, the Overmind is no longer in the state that we last saw it desribed as being in. Because the despair thing was in the manual, one would never have guessed that it ever was if one played only the campaign since all we get in the game is the Overmind's overconfidence in everything that it does. Should we blame the game for not telling us the Overmind's had despair but overcame it in the prologue to the Overmind campaign or elsewhere, like when Kerrigan hatched out of the chrysalis in Agent of the Swarm? I suppose then that the biggest fault is the game not clarifying or (re-)iterating the Overmind's motivation early in the campaign rather than it "forgetting" its motivation at the end when it assaults Aiur. Then again, having this literally spelled out would make it seem rather expository/clunky and on-the-nose - why would the Overmind ever say such a thing overtly and to itself when it only benefits an out-of-universe audience it doesn't even expect to have? It may have been better served if it was implicit by the Overmind just acting out how it felt - which it did. And yes, I know circumstantial evidence is not direct evidence but it's better than nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    Certainly, you could make the case that Tassadar's Fleet of the Executor was the major strength of the Protoss, or at least that the Overmind believed that, and I would concede that if so, that would justify the Overmind's change in motivation. But you'd need to support that with the game. By my reckoning the defenders on Aiur were more of a threat than Tassadar's broken fleet, something that should be pretty easily demonstrated by the fact that the Aiur Protoss went to Char and rescued Tassadar and the remnants of his fleet, all while still fighting back the Swarm's invasion of Aiur.
    If one is to adopt the interpretation I provided, the distinction of whether or not Tassadar's fleet (or Aiur for that matter) was the major strength of Protoss is actually moot. It also means that though situational circumstances have changed, the Overmind's justification and motivation actually hasn't changed either. All that matters is that Kerrigan was used for her purpose in fighting Protoss - which she did on a broad level.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    The only thing that matters to me is the plot's coherency. The plot of StarCraft revolves around the Swarm's invasion of Aiur to assimilate the Protoss, and the Protoss having to come together to survive. The only thing that connects the first half of the story - the Terrans and Char and Kerrigan and the Koprulu Expeditionary Fleet - with the rest of the plot is that the Overmind felt it needed to assimilate Humanity's psionic potential in order to achieve its goal. And yet, it invaded Aiur to assimilate the Protoss without Humanity's psionic potential. The motivation that ties the first act into the story is completely forgotten. There is no reason StarCraft could not have started with the Swarm invasion of Aiur in the story as it stands. The only element that connects the plot together has been forgotten.
    It is actually coherent if you keep the interpretation I mentioned in mind. In that sense, the Overmind's invasion of Aiur is not actually predicated on the physical proximity of Kerrigan/Humanity's psionic potential. That it has Kerrigan/Humanity's psionic potential at all is enough such that the effect of that means the Overmind considers that the invasion of Aiur is with Humanity's psionic potential - though not in actuality or at the present moment in time. From this perspective, the motivation has not been forgotten either.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    What non-Tassadar-and-the-Dark-Templar Protoss did Kerrigan fight, if you're so adamant about not talking about Tassadar and the Dark Templar?
    Should I include gameplay elements? In The Dark Templar and Eye for Eye, we see Kerrigan in the field where she engages all manner of Protoss from Zealots to High Templar and so on.
    Yes, that's right! That is indeed ME on the right.


    _______________________________________________

  3. #193

    Default Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    The Zerg stopped being a threat at the end of Sc1 with the Overmind being dead... and then the DEMs in BW occurred. To Mengsk in Sc2, the Zerg is only part of the threat since it's really Kerrigan that is the threat. She's not dead by the end of WoL, so the threat of her and by extension, the Zerg still exists.
    Don't know about that, Kerrigan took over when the Overmind died, so another Queen might have taken over after Kerrigan got deinfested (or Mengsk killed her). This is actually the plotline I wish they'd gone for after Wings of Liberty, in fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    Do I really need to explain the use of at the end of my questions?
    Sometimes . I did interpret them differently, so I apologise for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    Both. I guess the real question that is left now is whether Kerrigan's good deeds were enough - did she earn her redemption or was it just given to her? My money's still on her being an exaggerated "Karma Houdini".
    They are not. Certainly not in Heart of the Swarm, at least. I'm not sure how to judge her divine ascension and bringing of life across the Sector in Legacy of the Void, I certainly don't find it sufficiently satisfying. Anyway, as to Heart of the Swarm, being not evil is not enough to earn a redemption, and killing something worse than you are is not enough either. This is actually something Blizzard does all the time. That bit in The Quest for Uraj where Zeratul claims that Kerrigan might not be evil after all because she killed some Terrans for her own ends? It's that same mentality at work. But to me the worst example is Grom Hellscream in WarCraft III: Reign of Chaos. Grom's entire deal in that game is his stupid need to kill everything he sees, and once he finds something he can't kill, he enslaves himself and his tribe to the demons to get enough power to kill it. Then he gets rescued by the Xel'naga Artifact and dies killing a big demon, and now he's a hero. You don't earn a redemption by directing your uncontrolled murderous impulses at something worse than you are. You need to actually change.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    Eh, I'm still not entirely sure. For the Confeds to keep on underestimating the Zerg after what ultimately happened to Chau Sara (they couldn't save it) kinda gives the impression that they knowingly held the "idiot ball" - call me optimistic but I'd like to believe that an institution that has lasted >100 years would know better than to make such a monumentally continuous underestimation. Even so, the Confeds have more knowledge of the Zerg than the colonies who are invaded by them. I could understand why the Confeds would feel over-confident in handling the Zerg due to their misguided belief in being able to control them (in the initial stages at least) but why would they expect "lesser" peoples with no knowledge of the Zerg whatsoever to be able to stand up to them? Kinda defeats the purpose of using them at all if they can be defeated by small bands of local militia if you're asking me. Also, since the worlds were being stealthily infested, the colonies wouldn't have known about them until it was too late anyway. If the Confeds didn't redirect the colonists in the first place they wouldn't have given them a chance at defending themselves/destroying the Zerg in the first place.
    I think that's why they made the Psi Emitters capable of reaching across worlds. They didn't believe just seeding some Zerg on a planet would be effective against their enemies, they felt that they needed to bring Zerg from all over the Sector.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    Ok, we're getting somewhere. I thought the interpretation I just gave was something I had made explicit earlier but it looks like I was mistaken and/or very unclear. I think had said something to the effect of the Overmind thinking of Kerrigan as some sort of "morale boost" for itself earlier on. It ties into the despair thing and how the Overmind shows no hint of despair whatsoever during the campaign. The Overmind's "despair" about the Protoss might is a perceived but self-imposed mental roadblock with which Kerrigan is essentially the perceived solution to. In other words, she is the victory condition rather than the means to get to a victory condition. If you can somehow filter this interpretation with all that I've said on this matter in rebuttal to your position, I'm hoping you can understand where my position is coming from better.

    I can see why this would be unclear in the game and that's largely because by the time the Overmind campaign has started, the Overmind is no longer in the state that we last saw it desribed as being in. Because the despair thing was in the manual, one would never have guessed that it ever was if one played only the campaign since all we get in the game is the Overmind's overconfidence in everything that it does. Should we blame the game for not telling us the Overmind's had despair but overcame it in the prologue to the Overmind campaign or elsewhere, like when Kerrigan hatched out of the chrysalis in Agent of the Swarm? I suppose then that the biggest fault is the game not clarifying or (re-)iterating the Overmind's motivation early in the campaign rather than it "forgetting" its motivation at the end when it assaults Aiur. Then again, having this literally spelled out would make it seem rather expository/clunky and on-the-nose - why would the Overmind ever say such a thing overtly and to itself when it only benefits an out-of-universe audience it doesn't even expect to have? It may have been better served if it was implicit by the Overmind just acting out how it felt - which it did. And yes, I know circumstantial evidence is not direct evidence but it's better than nothing.
    Yes, we could see it as the game not expressing the Overmind's motivation for attacking the Terran worlds, but we do get this part in Rebel Yell:

    KERRIGAN: "Those running the program found that the Zerg are attuned to the psychic emanations of Ghosts."
    RAYNOR: "So the Zerg are here for you, darlin'?"

    Which, incidentally, is super on-the-nose .

    But then we also get these from Overmind:

    OVERMIND: "What I have wrought this day shall be the undoing of my enemies!"

    And perhaps most tellingly:

    "Kerrigan, the newest and most powerful agent of the Overmind, has arisen from her embryonic Chrysalis, but her formidable powers are still not fully functional.

    Kerrigan must now seek to unravel the Ghost conditioning that keeps her powers in check. Once done, she will lead the Overmind's minions to complete domination over the unsuspecting Protoss."


    So while the reason why the Overmind felt it needed Kerrigan to overcome the Protoss might not be explained, the game fully sets down the expectation that she will be leading our efforts against the Protoss, and that this is why the Zerg invaded the Terran worlds.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    It is actually coherent if you keep the interpretation I mentioned in mind. In that sense, the Overmind's invasion of Aiur is not actually predicated on the physical proximity of Kerrigan/Humanity's psionic potential. That it has Kerrigan/Humanity's psionic potential at all is enough such that the effect of that means the Overmind considers that the invasion of Aiur is with Humanity's psionic potential - though not in actuality or at the present moment in time. From this perspective, the motivation has not been forgotten either.
    It'd be coherent if this was what the game set up. But as I've cited, the game very heavily implies that Kerrigan is to be used as a weapon. Even her unveiling, 'Agent of the Swarm' implies agency, that is, action to produce results.

    Overmind would leave you to think the only reason the Overmind didn't attack Aiur was because it didn't know its 'secret location', a notion which pretty much jettisons the first half of the story.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    Should I include gameplay elements? In The Dark Templar and Eye for Eye, we see Kerrigan in the field where she engages all manner of Protoss from Zealots to High Templar and so on.
    Those are from Tassadar's fleet.
    Zeratul: I have journeyed through the darkness between the most distant stars. I have beheld the births of negative-suns and borne witness to the entropy of entire realities...
    Aldaris: Did not! That doesn't even make sense!
    Zeratul: Shut up, I totally did!

  4. #194

    Default Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    Don't know about that, Kerrigan took over when the Overmind died, so another Queen might have taken over after Kerrigan got deinfested (or Mengsk killed her). This is actually the plotline I wish they'd gone for after Wings of Liberty, in fact.
    That maybe so but Kerrigan isn't dead yet, just "deinfested". Given that there has been no solid precedent of this sort of thing ever happening before (would we expect Mengsk to know about the Protoss nanite serum or Dr Hanson's work?), Mengsk would want to make sure that the real danger of the Zerg (Kerrigan acting as the unifying presence) is neutralised for certain because he can then continue scouring Char or the Zerg with some more peace of mind at the least. Afterall, he's already under-estimated her before several times to his own eventual detriment. Plus, if he's obsessed with Raynor, I'm sure he's obsessed with Kerrigan, too. Sure, you could say that this would be like us expecting Mengsk to expect another DEM to occur again but since they're always happening specifically around Kerrigan (he would've thought she died at New Gettysburg like any reasonable person would), you can't blame the guy for trying to make sure.

    That being said, for plotting reasons, I too wish that we got a true Zerg campaign that didn't involve Kerrigan either. Either that, or follow a changed Kerrigan that didn't involve Zerg. I can see why neither of those two options would be acceptable to Blizz or the fans (it's either "oh noes, we can't not include Kerrigan!" or "oh noes, we can't have two Terran campaigns/no Zerg campaign!"), which is why we got HotS which made even less sense in the end due to the mixed messages and incongruousness of having a supposedly changed person going back to using living weapons of mass destruction again.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    They are not. Certainly not in Heart of the Swarm, at least. I'm not sure how to judge her divine ascension and bringing of life across the Sector in Legacy of the Void, I certainly don't find it sufficiently satisfying. Anyway, as to Heart of the Swarm, being not evil is not enough to earn a redemption, and killing something worse than you are is not enough either. This is actually something Blizzard does all the time. That bit in The Quest for Uraj where Zeratul claims that Kerrigan might not be evil after all because she killed some Terrans for her own ends? It's that same mentality at work. But to me the worst example is Grom Hellscream in WarCraft III: Reign of Chaos. Grom's entire deal in that game is his stupid need to kill everything he sees, and once he finds something he can't kill, he enslaves himself and his tribe to the demons to get enough power to kill it. Then he gets rescued by the Xel'naga Artifact and dies killing a big demon, and now he's a hero. You don't earn a redemption by directing your uncontrolled murderous impulses at something worse than you are. You need to actually change.
    Makes me wonder then. What would it take to redeem her then? Unlike Grom, Kerrigan does exhibit the potential to change and she does do more than what Grom did (given that Grom only had one opportunity and dying by taking it). The only way I can see this happening without her dying is that there's a downside to her doing good to counterbalance all her evil doings having an upside for her. I think part of why it isn't satisying is that there's no sense of accountability and that Kerrigan is constantly rewarded whether she does good or bad. There is no sense of punishment from what I can see.

    I didn't mind Grom's sacrifice at the time since it doesn't absolve him completely and that any other ending (like him living) would be an even worse treatment comparatively since it would seem like he got a free pass. The death may not be ideal justice but it's both redemptive and and an appropriate punishment. Course, I believe the lore has him regarded as a hero now, so I understand why that might grate.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    I think that's why they made the Psi Emitters capable of reaching across worlds. They didn't believe just seeding some Zerg on a planet would be effective against their enemies, they felt that they needed to bring Zerg from all over the Sector.
    But with Chau Sara already overrun and destroyed, all this just means is that the Confeds know more about the Zerg and how dangerous they can be. This leads to how one could expect the Confeds to think that local militias could stand up to them. If they just wanted to watch the Zerg in action, why bother leading these forces on to discover the Zerg only to arrest them when they could've done nothing at all except surreptitiously bring Zerg to the world until they reached critical mass? If they wanted to be heroes and sweep on in and take credit for killing Zerg (an unlikely scenario since they never showed up to help at all), it would've been easier had they not forced people to relocate and not wasted time arresting the local militia. Sounds like some weird conspiracy.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    So while the reason why the Overmind felt it needed Kerrigan to overcome the Protoss might not be explained, the game fully sets down the expectation that she will be leading our efforts against the Protoss, and that this is why the Zerg invaded the Terran worlds.
    Fair enough, but are we supposed to take this as Kerrigan being the only thing that can take action against Protoss such that no action against Protoss is possible (like the Overmind going to Aiur or even earlier with the mission Egression) without Kerrigan?). Like I've said before, there's no real restriction or rule that stipulates that Kerrigan must accompany the Overmind's initial invasion of Aiur right at that moment. Keepining in mind that the Overmind is prone to pronouncements of victory despite not actually having achieved it yet, it's successful manifestation on Aiur does not necessarily mean the Protoss' ultimate defeat at that specific point in time either. Kerrigan can always come later to do the actual conquering of the world but the Overmind campaign ends at that point. And yes, whilst she never does rock up on Aiur, something could've happened to warrant that but we just don't see it because we're no longer on the Zerg perspective. Don't get me wrong, I'm still with you in regards to how poorly it's conveyed though (it could've sufficed to have the Overmind say "I just don't think Kerrigan needs to come with me yet" or that Kerrigan just wanted to keep on fighting on Char).

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    It'd be coherent if this was what the game set up. But as I've cited, the game very heavily implies that Kerrigan is to be used as a weapon. Even her unveiling, 'Agent of the Swarm' implies agency, that is, action to produce results.

    Overmind would leave you to think the only reason the Overmind didn't attack Aiur was because it didn't know its 'secret location', a notion which pretty much jettisons the first half of the story.
    The setup is important for sure but if the inherent value of Kerrigan to the Overmind was first and foremost to give it a confidence boost/a way past it's own mental block and that had already happened prior to the Overmind campaign starting (or when she hatched), then the strict importance of her use as a weapon (and on Aiur no less) is diluted. What's important then is that she is being used as a weapon against Protoss at the least - and she fulfills that requirement. It doesn't jettison half the story either since her real value is her being in existence on the Zerg side such that without her, it wouldn't have been able to go to Aiur even if it did know where Aiur was from the start of the campaign.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    Those are from Tassadar's fleet.
    If you keep in mind that interpretation I gave, this distinction is pointless. Doesn't matter who they are, where they're from, how many there are, where they are at any given time - the point is that they're Protoss and she's fighting them as the Overmind expects and wants of her.
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  5. #195

    Default Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    That maybe so but Kerrigan isn't dead yet, just "deinfested". Given that there has been no solid precedent of this sort of thing ever happening before (would we expect Mengsk to know about the Protoss nanite serum or Dr Hanson's work?), Mengsk would want to make sure that the real danger of the Zerg (Kerrigan acting as the unifying presence) is neutralised for certain because he can then continue scouring Char or the Zerg with some more peace of mind at the least.
    Your hypothetical also works in the reverse direction though. We have precedent for a Swarm leader dying and being replaced, but not for what happened to Kerrigan. It might be that the situation is confusing the Zerg as to whether Kerrigan is still Queen or if she needs to be replaced, and that killing her would only clarify the hierarchy and allow the Zerg to regroup, therefore being the worst thing Mengsk could do right now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    That being said, for plotting reasons, I too wish that we got a true Zerg campaign that didn't involve Kerrigan either. Either that, or follow a changed Kerrigan that didn't involve Zerg. I can see why neither of those two options would be acceptable to Blizz or the fans (it's either "oh noes, we can't not include Kerrigan!" or "oh noes, we can't have two Terran campaigns/no Zerg campaign!"), which is why we got HotS which made even less sense in the end due to the mixed messages and incongruousness of having a supposedly changed person going back to using living weapons of mass destruction again.
    I think it could have worked without Kerrigan, basically showing us the chaos her disappearance left within the Swarm, allowing her importance to shine through her absence, but who knows.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    Makes me wonder then. What would it take to redeem her then? Unlike Grom, Kerrigan does exhibit the potential to change and she does do more than what Grom did (given that Grom only had one opportunity and dying by taking it). The only way I can see this happening without her dying is that there's a downside to her doing good to counterbalance all her evil doings having an upside for her. I think part of why it isn't satisying is that there's no sense of accountability and that Kerrigan is constantly rewarded whether she does good or bad. There is no sense of punishment from what I can see.

    I didn't mind Grom's sacrifice at the time since it doesn't absolve him completely and that any other ending (like him living) would be an even worse treatment comparatively since it would seem like he got a free pass. The death may not be ideal justice but it's both redemptive and and an appropriate punishment. Course, I believe the lore has him regarded as a hero now, so I understand why that might grate.
    Yeah, I don't see dying as being especially meaningful morality-wise. At least, not the way Grom did. Tassadar deliberately sacrificed his life to slay the Overmind, but Grom just died as a result of the fight, it wasn't even a deliberate sacrifice. The same thing could have happened to him while he was fighting Cenarius or some random Alliance hero.

    As to Kerrigan, all those plot points about sacrificing her advantages to minimise risks to civilians are a good starting point, and for that reason I'd say she's further along the path of redemption than Grom, but the didn't really cost her anything since she ends up winning anyway. If we contrast this to Tassadar, whose attempt to spare the people of Tarsonis lead to unmitigated disaster. Morally, it's the choice that matters, not the outcome, but from a narrative perspective, we don't get to actually 'feel' the sacrifices she's made, so they're not really consequential. Same goes with reinfesting herself, she doesn't really lose anything from it.

    Maybe if returning to the Zerg had been the final straw, and lost her Raynor forever, and she did it anyway because it was necessary, then that would have been something. But it would also have required making it far clearer that Kerrigan was doing this out of more than just revenge. There's a sense that she needs to give a personal cost to help others. That's why 'death' is the general go-to for redemption stories. That, and you get to leave on a high note.

    Otherwise, she kinda needs to make up for all the damage she's caused, which is why I say that I'm not sure how to deal with her at the end of Legacy of the Void. Obviously she can't bring everyone she killed back to life, but turning all those worlds in the Sector into habitable havens might repay that in the grand scale, allowing humanity to prosper and multiply. I don't know, it's hard for me to judge things on such a scale. I don't think it's satisfying, but is it enough for her to redeem herself?

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    But with Chau Sara already overrun and destroyed, all this just means is that the Confeds know more about the Zerg and how dangerous they can be. This leads to how one could expect the Confeds to think that local militias could stand up to them. If they just wanted to watch the Zerg in action, why bother leading these forces on to discover the Zerg only to arrest them when they could've done nothing at all except surreptitiously bring Zerg to the world until they reached critical mass? If they wanted to be heroes and sweep on in and take credit for killing Zerg (an unlikely scenario since they never showed up to help at all), it would've been easier had they not forced people to relocate and not wasted time arresting the local militia. Sounds like some weird conspiracy.
    Well, that depends. Maybe things on Chau Sara were going as the Confederates planned, but before they could swoop in, Tassadar and the Protoss appeared and wiped the planet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    Fair enough, but are we supposed to take this as Kerrigan being the only thing that can take action against Protoss such that no action against Protoss is possible (like the Overmind going to Aiur or even earlier with the mission Egression) without Kerrigan?). Like I've said before, there's no real restriction or rule that stipulates that Kerrigan must accompany the Overmind's initial invasion of Aiur right at that moment. Keepining in mind that the Overmind is prone to pronouncements of victory despite not actually having achieved it yet, it's successful manifestation on Aiur does not necessarily mean the Protoss' ultimate defeat at that specific point in time either. Kerrigan can always come later to do the actual conquering of the world but the Overmind campaign ends at that point. And yes, whilst she never does rock up on Aiur, something could've happened to warrant that but we just don't see it because we're no longer on the Zerg perspective. Don't get me wrong, I'm still with you in regards to how poorly it's conveyed though (it could've sufficed to have the Overmind say "I just don't think Kerrigan needs to come with me yet" or that Kerrigan just wanted to keep on fighting on Char).
    No, there's no non-narrative reason Kerrigan has to go with the Overmind to Aiur, but narratively, since Kerrigan's been established as the Swarm's key to victory over the Protoss, and Aiur has been established as the key battleground for the Swarm's ultimate victory ("For upon this world of Aiur shall we incorporate the strongest known species into our fold. Then shall we be the greatest of creation's children. We shall be... Perfect.", etc) there is immense narrative reason that Kerrigan must accompany the Overmind to Aiur. I'd be fine with the notion that the Overmind considered the Dark Templar to be their greatest threat, but again, given that this is the game's main storyline, it really should have been addressed in the game itself. Just have the Overmind order Kerrigan to stay behind because the Dark Templar are the greatest threat to their victory, and you've covered your bases.
    Zeratul: I have journeyed through the darkness between the most distant stars. I have beheld the births of negative-suns and borne witness to the entropy of entire realities...
    Aldaris: Did not! That doesn't even make sense!
    Zeratul: Shut up, I totally did!

  6. #196

    Default Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    Your hypothetical also works in the reverse direction though. We have precedent for a Swarm leader dying and being replaced, but not for what happened to Kerrigan. It might be that the situation is confusing the Zerg as to whether Kerrigan is still Queen or if she needs to be replaced, and that killing her would only clarify the hierarchy and allow the Zerg to regroup, therefore being the worst thing Mengsk could do right now.
    But the Zerg are already infighting without Kerrigan/QoB already. Expecting a DEM the Swarm to magically recover if Kerrigan is actually killed as his own internal justification for Mengsk not to go finish the job sort of undermines his decision in starting the job (wanting to kill her at all) in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    Yeah, I don't see dying as being especially meaningful morality-wise. At least, not the way Grom did. Tassadar deliberately sacrificed his life to slay the Overmind, but Grom just died as a result of the fight, it wasn't even a deliberate sacrifice. The same thing could have happened to him while he was fighting Cenarius or some random Alliance hero.
    Oh, I don't know. I would think that a blood curse with enough power to kill it's creator would somehow be made to prohibit one of it's thralls from turning on, attacking and killing its own creator. That or Mannoroth was just dumb.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    Maybe if returning to the Zerg had been the final straw, and lost her Raynor forever, and she did it anyway because it was necessary, then that would have been something. But it would also have required making it far clearer that Kerrigan was doing this out of more than just revenge. There's a sense that she needs to give a personal cost to help others.
    But isn't this what HotS represented (or seems to want to imply) albeit poorly? The decision to go to the Zerg is supposed to be her only option left (as opposed to going the Ghost path) and the only way to give Raynor justice for his wrongful execution. For that choice, she is rebuked by the one person (who turns out didn't actually get executed) who she was doing this all for. Also, she gives up Raynor after defeating Mengsk to go fight Amon. There's a personal cost there, but it never sticks because she is later and ultimately rewarded for it anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    Otherwise, she kinda needs to make up for all the damage she's caused, which is why I say that I'm not sure how to deal with her at the end of Legacy of the Void. Obviously she can't bring everyone she killed back to life, but turning all those worlds in the Sector into habitable havens might repay that in the grand scale, allowing humanity to prosper and multiply. I don't know, it's hard for me to judge things on such a scale. I don't think it's satisfying, but is it enough for her to redeem herself?
    The biggest problem is that the magnitude of the damage she has caused defies any sort of redemption being possible in such a small amount of time short of her becoming a god. And guess what happened? She became one. That they do make this so, kinda renders all of her actions as being meaningless and her character being too idealised because she gets rewarded whether she does good or bad. It's unsatsifying because by going that route outs it as an obvious and cheap writer's ploy. Given that she so much to be redeemed for and that the solution (being a god) is so extreme to counter it, it feels way more unearned compared to Raynor's redemption in WoL where he had an undisguised plot device to help him get there, too, but his redemption was more of personal/internal/subjective kind which made it more palatable.

    Also, her bringing life back to the Sector is directly in contrast to her leaving the Zerg intact and giving them free reign to ravage the sector again, which is likely since Zerg have no other choices left to them. Once again, having a "good" Kerrigan and the Zerg linked in such a way is at cross purposes.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    Well, that depends. Maybe things on Chau Sara were going as the Confederates planned, but before they could swoop in, Tassadar and the Protoss appeared and wiped the planet?
    If they wanted to take credit for beating Zerg then why didn't they swoop in to help Mar Sara then? It obviously wasn't bad enough for the Protoss to come yet and incinerate the planet and yet the Confeds never showed up to take control of the situation. Still sounds like a very neat and convenient conspiracy theory.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    No, there's no non-narrative reason Kerrigan has to go with the Overmind to Aiur, but narratively, since Kerrigan's been established as the Swarm's key to victory over the Protoss, and Aiur has been established as the key battleground for the Swarm's ultimate victory ("For upon this world of Aiur shall we incorporate the strongest known species into our fold. Then shall we be the greatest of creation's children. We shall be... Perfect.", etc) there is immense narrative reason that Kerrigan must accompany the Overmind to Aiur.
    The quote you provided only establishes Aiur as the key battleground after it has already invaded Aiur and successfully prepared the site for its manifestation. She wasn't necessary to start the invasion before then.
    Yes, that's right! That is indeed ME on the right.


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  7. #197

    Default Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    But the Zerg are already infighting without Kerrigan/QoB already. Expecting a DEM the Swarm to magically recover if Kerrigan is actually killed as his own internal justification for Mengsk not to go finish the job sort of undermines his decision in starting the job (wanting to kill her at all) in the first place.
    But they're not really without Kerrigan... she still exists and has some measure of control over the Zerg, but she's no longer their 'overmind'. It's an unprecedented situation and the Zerg would not know how to adapt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    But isn't this what HotS represented (or seems to want to imply) albeit poorly? The decision to go to the Zerg is supposed to be her only option left (as opposed to going the Ghost path) and the only way to give Raynor justice for his wrongful execution. For that choice, she is rebuked by the one person (who turns out didn't actually get executed) who she was doing this all for. Also, she gives up Raynor after defeating Mengsk to go fight Amon. There's a personal cost there, but it never sticks because she is later and ultimately rewarded for it anyway.
    Right, there are potential costs, but she never needs to pay them in the end.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    The biggest problem is that the magnitude of the damage she has caused defies any sort of redemption being possible in such a small amount of time short of her becoming a god. And guess what happened? She became one. That they do make this so, kinda renders all of her actions as being meaningless and her character being too idealised because she gets rewarded whether she does good or bad. It's unsatsifying because by going that route outs it as an obvious and cheap writer's ploy. Given that she so much to be redeemed for and that the solution (being a god) is so extreme to counter it, it feels way more unearned compared to Raynor's redemption in WoL where he had an undisguised plot device to help him get there, too, but his redemption was more of personal/internal/subjective kind which made it more palatable.
    There's supposed to be a trading of her humanity for that divinity, but she already traded her humanity to become Zerg again in Heart of the Swarm, so there's nothing left to give.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    If they wanted to take credit for beating Zerg then why didn't they swoop in to help Mar Sara then? It obviously wasn't bad enough for the Protoss to come yet and incinerate the planet and yet the Confeds never showed up to take control of the situation. Still sounds like a very neat and convenient conspiracy theory.
    Good question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    The quote you provided only establishes Aiur as the key battleground after it has already invaded Aiur and successfully prepared the site for its manifestation. She wasn't necessary to start the invasion before then.
    This is wrong. That quote comes from the briefing to The Invasion of Aiur and is, as you might expect from that, a precursor to the invasion of Aiur.
    Zeratul: I have journeyed through the darkness between the most distant stars. I have beheld the births of negative-suns and borne witness to the entropy of entire realities...
    Aldaris: Did not! That doesn't even make sense!
    Zeratul: Shut up, I totally did!

  8. #198

    Default Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    But they're not really without Kerrigan... she still exists and has some measure of control over the Zerg, but she's no longer their 'overmind'. It's an unprecedented situation and the Zerg would not know how to adapt.
    Yes and you expect Mengsk to know this and just stop trying to kill her?

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    There's supposed to be a trading of her humanity for that divinity, but she already traded her humanity to become Zerg again in Heart of the Swarm, so there's nothing left to give.
    What trading of her humanity for divinity? She's trading her inhumanity for the chance at humanity through divinity - a chance that conveniently falls into her lap.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    Good question.
    What do you mean by that? You are still claiming that the Confeds wanted Mar Sara to be eaten by Zerg all along and that Duke knew about it/was working toward that goal, right? It wouldn't make sense for the Confeds to waste resources directly intervening on Mar Sara at all since they could just attract millions more Zerg to it if they wanted to at any time and could still benefit from the Protoss incinerating the planet if their real aim was to see the colony destroyed.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    This is wrong. That quote comes from the briefing to The Invasion of Aiur and is, as you might expect from that, a precursor to the invasion of Aiur.
    My bad. Still, the entirety of the Swarm had already arrived in orbit over Aiur when the quote was made which means she wasn't still necessary to start the invasion. There's nothing that says no decisive action of any kind against the Protoss is possible without Kerrigan just as there's nothing with the Overmind going to Aiur that denies that Kerrigan may still be the key to defeating the Protoss. Like I said with my interpretation, Kerrigan is a key to victory over the Protoss insofar as her very existence within the Swarm is what is more important to the Overmind and not that she goes to a place where there's more Protoss to fight. In the campaign, all that is established regarding her exact practical importance is filtered through the Overmind's rhetoric which is non-specific. Also, not all cerebrates seem to agree that Kerrigan is vitally important in terms of taking on Protoss (Zasz being the obvious one but even Daggoth believes it can take on Protoss by itself while it tasks Kerrigan to mop-up the Garm Brood).
    Yes, that's right! That is indeed ME on the right.


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  9. #199

    Default Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    Yes and you expect Mengsk to know this and just stop trying to kill her?
    You're the one trying to justify Mengsk's attack on the basis that this would somehow harm the Zerg, I,m pointing out that even that assumption is dubious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    What trading of her humanity for divinity? She's trading her inhumanity for the chance at humanity through divinity - a chance that conveniently falls into her lap.
    Exactly what I said.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    What do you mean by that? You are still claiming that the Confeds wanted Mar Sara to be eaten by Zerg all along and that Duke knew about it/was working toward that goal, right? It wouldn't make sense for the Confeds to waste resources directly intervening on Mar Sara at all since they could just attract millions more Zerg to it if they wanted to at any time and could still benefit from the Protoss incinerating the planet if their real aim was to see the colony destroyed.
    I just mean that it's a good question that doesn't have any obvious answers, though I could make some up if you insist. Despite this, I'd say it's more reasonable than the alternative.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    My bad. Still, the entirety of the Swarm had already arrived in orbit over Aiur when the quote was made which means she wasn't still necessary to start the invasion. There's nothing that says no decisive action of any kind against the Protoss is possible without Kerrigan just as there's nothing with the Overmind going to Aiur that denies that Kerrigan may still be the key to defeating the Protoss. Like I said with my interpretation, Kerrigan is a key to victory over the Protoss insofar as her very existence within the Swarm is what is more important to the Overmind and not that she goes to a place where there's more Protoss to fight. In the campaign, all that is established regarding her exact practical importance is filtered through the Overmind's rhetoric which is non-specific. Also, not all cerebrates seem to agree that Kerrigan is vitally important in terms of taking on Protoss (Zasz being the obvious one but even Daggoth believes it can take on Protoss by itself while it tasks Kerrigan to mop-up the Garm Brood).
    You're grasping. By your reasoning there are no plot holes in StarCraft II. The entire narrative is about getting Kerrigan so she can fight the Protoss, and about fighting the Protoss so the Overmind can evolve the perfect Swarm.
    Last edited by FanaticTemplar; 12-20-2015 at 02:41 PM.
    Zeratul: I have journeyed through the darkness between the most distant stars. I have beheld the births of negative-suns and borne witness to the entropy of entire realities...
    Aldaris: Did not! That doesn't even make sense!
    Zeratul: Shut up, I totally did!

  10. #200

    Default Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    You're the one trying to justify Mengsk's attack on the basis that this would somehow harm the Zerg
    What? That's not it at all. I'm saying it's reasonable to assume Mengsk is being practical/hedging his bets by making sure Kerrigan is dead so that the Zerg won't be a potential (and very real) threat later. The threat is Kerrigan - who uses the Zerg as her modus operandi. She is still alive and can still use the Zerg and is therefore still a threat now as she was then, even despite being "deinfested" (whatever the hell that's supposed to mean...).

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    You're grasping. By your reasoning there are no plot holes in StarCraft II.
    How so? There are always plot-holes though there are some that are more noticeable and narrative destroying than others. I'm not denying a plothole, just questioning how bad (noticeable and narrative destroying) it really is.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    The entire narrative is about getting Kerrigan so she can fight the Protoss, and about fighting the Protoss so the Overmind can evolve the perfect Swarm.
    You keep trying to simplify it like this but when you say "getting Kerrigan so she can fight the Protoss", you really mean "getting Kerrigan so she can fight Protoss on Aiur" (or some later clarification regarding "total Protoss defeat" or other). When I call you up on that, you then deny it when it's very clear that this is what you actually mean (your last few posts about rejecting the value of the Protoss that Kerrigan fights come to mind). Assuming that the general "get Kerrigan to fight Protoss" just naturally means "get Kerrigan to fight the majority of the Protoss at once" is flawed reasoning. When I attempt to clarify it/specify it/nut it out, you then dismiss me of going into minutaie when it is really just laying bare your assumptions.

    Even aside all of this, if you'd open up your perspective a little bit, you'd realise that my position (no, I'm not talking about the Dark Templar and the lack of a mention regarding their importance, I mean that other interpretation I posited) actually still supports and incorporates this entire narrative. It's not as if you've been able to refute it in any capacity afterall .
    Last edited by Turalyon; 12-21-2015 at 03:18 AM.
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