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Thread: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts

  1. #181

    Default Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    Mengsk's irrational obsession with Raynor?
    We're talking about a guy who has a speech that goes "Our long nightmare is over, this rebel guy is dead, Oh, and also, in other news the Zerg are defeated." And the first news broadcast from Wings of Liberty is likewise hilarious, with the military despot being accused of not spending enough of the public's money on the military he uses to oppress them because he's too fixated on Raynor. Honestly you'd expect those two to have switched their lines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    Regardless, Mengsk has just a flimsy justification for attacking Kerrigan as Kerrigan does attacking the Dominion head on with monsters just to kill one man. At least with Mengsk were not being asked to think of his justification as also being righteous.
    Your idea of morality involves monstrous despots as inviolate because they have people who will defend them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    Just like how the Protoss won in Sc1?

    Anyways, the Dominion did win but only under Valerian who has gone rogue. Not only as he absconded with half his fleet, he's aligned with highly resourceful threats in the form of a "terrorist" that has been causing trouble that not even trillions of currency can remedy and now, an entity who may still potentially be able to control monsters; both of which have personal grudges against him. Mengsk can never be too sure.
    I have no idea where you're going with this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    Judgement of her moral fibre in warfare is not solely determined by specific actions against civilians, it can also be due to inaction/lack of due care regarding potential loss in civilians. Afterall, she engages in a "just" war by obtaining a weapon of mass and indiscriminate destruction first and foremost above anything else. That's a pretty slippery slope. Luckily there were people who could conveniently lecture her on the morality of her actions so she take appropriate action but only after the war was already initiated. It's like "Wow, I never knew that killing people that are protecting the only man I really want to kill is a bad thing up until now". It's also lucky that she took those lectures to heart whereas she could have easily resumed having no compunctions (or didn't bother to think about it) like when she first initiated the war.
    Which, again, makes her better than pretty much everyone else in the series. I hope you remember my position here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    You've forgotten one blatant discrepancy though in all this. If the Confeds are so "active" in taking no action against the Zerg and just want to see what happens, why are they even there/show up at all/deign to make a presence? It can't just be for keeping up appearances to locals since I'd assume they'd expect everyone on those planets with Zerg to be nommed up by them anyway. Also, there is no need to move/relocate colonists (or allocate someone to help do such a thing) into the path of the Zerg since the Zerg will find them soon enough and that the Confeds are the ones who have Psi Emitter tech which means they can direct the Zerg in a fashion afterall. Why even bother arresting the local standing forces if they want to observe the Zerg kill people? Wouldn't that be more interesting/informative to watch them in action against the Zerg? It's not as if they can really stop them. Either way, something doesn't add up.
    It would seem to me that the Confederates didn't want the Zerg wiped out before the infestation had taken hold. As we see in Backwater Station, it's apparently possible to push back the Zerg at that early stage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    Seems to me like you're self-defeating your own position. If the specifics of the motivation doesn't matter and that the going to Aiur without Kerrigan doesn't matter, then there is no problem. All we have then, is the Overmind did invade Terran worlds to get something to fight Protoss, found it and then used it to fight Protoss.

    But didn't you just say the specifics of the motivation are irrelevant? If so, there is no need for explanation or justification. Once again in general terms, the Overmind invaded Terran worlds to get a weapon to fight Protoss. It succeeded and proceeded to use it against Protoss. That's it. Where or when doesn't matter since you said you're not concerned about the fact that the Overmind is invading Aiur or any other locale specifically.

    I thought it didn't matter to you that the Overmind invaded Aiur specifically. In that context, Kerrigan is attacking some Protoss whilst the Overmind is just attacking some other Protoss elsewhere. There is no rule that the Overmind cannot fight Protoss at all on it's own without Kerrigan.
    That's only viable if you think that the Overmind believed the Protoss to be essentially defeated by the time it got to Aiur, and I'd need you to provide something from the actual game to confirm that, since it's the game's main narrative.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    When I said accepted infestation, I meant it as she eventually succumbed/accepted infestation as the process was going on (like it did in the short story) not immediately before being placed in a chrysalis. She was probably still resisting somewhat which lead to those psychic emanations. When she finally accepted it, she became a different person in the way how some gain and understand a whole different perspective on their life. Like I said, it's all fanon.
    Eh, it's not like I have a counter-suggestion, either.
    Zeratul: I have journeyed through the darkness between the most distant stars. I have beheld the births of negative-suns and borne witness to the entropy of entire realities...
    Aldaris: Did not! That doesn't even make sense!
    Zeratul: Shut up, I totally did!

  2. #182

    Default Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts

    http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...egacyOfTheVoid

    Honestly some of the observations make sense. Also, I don't necessarily mind the Khala being corrupt. That kind of mental link would be a privacy nightmare and ultimately helped the protoss become stagnant and unwilling to grow.

    Hell even Kerrigan becoming Xel'naga was fine. Purity of Form just means has a buttfucking amount of power psionic, and Kerrigan fulfilled that even as a human. Purity of essence as well because she was primal zerg, which evolved outside of Amon. The humans were powerful without Amon's interference so in a perverse way it makes sense.

  3. #183

    Default Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by DarthYam View Post
    http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...egacyOfTheVoid

    Honestly some of the observations make sense. Also, I don't necessarily mind the Khala being corrupt. That kind of mental link would be a privacy nightmare and ultimately helped the protoss become stagnant and unwilling to grow.

    Hell even Kerrigan becoming Xel'naga was fine. Purity of Form just means has a buttfucking amount of power psionic, and Kerrigan fulfilled that even as a human. Purity of essence as well because she was primal zerg, which evolved outside of Amon. The humans were powerful without Amon's interference so in a perverse way it makes sense.
    One part that didn't is that the Khala was NOT created by Amon. The Protoss had it before he and his followers even came to Aiur.

  4. #184

    Default Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    We're talking about a guy who has a speech that goes "Our long nightmare is over, this rebel guy is dead, Oh, and also, in other news the Zerg are defeated." And the first news broadcast from Wings of Liberty is likewise hilarious, with the military despot being accused of not spending enough of the public's money on the military he uses to oppress them because he's too fixated on Raynor. Honestly you'd expect those two to have switched their lines.
    A despot is considered obsessed because they're taking action to contain and mitigate damage designed to weaken their rule? Ok, sure why not?Nice to know that two incidences count as an obsession though.

    Anyways, Mengsk wouldn't have to waste all his money on Raynor if he just went away and stopped harrassing the Dominion all the time (or was halfways competent in capturing him in the first place).

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    Your idea of morality involves monstrous despots as inviolate because they have people who will defend them?
    Never said or implied that. I'm not even talking about morality there, I was talking about justification. You're actually talking about justification as well (in regards to Kerrigan) and I'm highlighting that. There's Mengsk's justification for action and there's Kerrigan's justifications for action. That said, justifications are not always righteous, regardless of the story having authorial intrusion to suggest it is so.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    I have no idea where you're going with this.
    The Dominion "winning" is like the Protoss "winning" at the end of Sc1 (ie: they didn't really win much if at all). Mengsk is not a man who would rest on his laurels when there are still threats out there like Kerrigan (he's apparently obsessed with Raynor afterall, so why not Kerrigan?). He knows that the Zerg are only really quelled when their leaders are dead and gone but he also knows Kerrigan is still alive and can still control the Zerg. He knows she is resourceful and knows not to let his guard down following what happened in BW after being misled and being defeated despite outnumbering her one Zerg army.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    Which, again, makes her better than pretty much everyone else in the series.
    Even Tassadar? At least he has the excuse of "I was just following orders" initially (and even allowed the Terrans some time to evacuate before glassing their worlds) and still came about on his own accord after reflecting on his own actions. Kerrigan just goes about unleashing the Zerg on any planet with a Dominion presence (which would be almost all of them since the Terrans are more or less unified at that point), kills Protoss unncessarily and only considered changing the way she does things when called out on it/pleaded with by using the morality pet that is Raynor after the fact. Like I said, "lucky" there was someone to call her out and that Raynor was actually still alive, otherwise who knows what would've happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    It would seem to me that the Confederates didn't want the Zerg wiped out before the infestation had taken hold. As we see in Backwater Station, it's apparently possible to push back the Zerg at that early stage.
    Like I said, if the Confeds weren't involved, the planets that were invaded by the Zerg wouldn't have known there was a danger to begin with and would've been taken by surprise anyway. They are supposed to be weak fringe colonies afterall.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    That's only viable if you think that the Overmind believed the Protoss to be essentially defeated by the time it got to Aiur, and I'd need you to provide something from the actual game to confirm that, since it's the game's main narrative.
    I have nothing to prove though since you're trying to filter this perspective through your own lens. I'm not the one equating going to Aiur as the Protoss being defeated or that Kerrigan fighting Protoss must equal defeating all the Protoss for all time. Like I said "there is no rule that the Overmind cannot fight Protoss at all on it's own without Kerrigan".
    Yes, that's right! That is indeed ME on the right.


    _______________________________________________

  5. #185

    Default Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    A despot is considered obsessed because they're taking action to contain and mitigate damage designed to weaken their rule? Ok, sure why not?Nice to know that two incidences count as an obsession though.

    Anyways, Mengsk wouldn't have to waste all his money on Raynor if he just went away and stopped harrassing the Dominion all the time (or was halfways competent in capturing him in the first place).
    You're arguing that mengsk considers Raynor to be a greater threat than the Zerg because he's 'pragmatic'?

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    Never said or implied that. I'm not even talking about morality there, I was talking about justification. You're actually talking about justification as well (in regards to Kerrigan) and I'm highlighting that. There's Mengsk's justification for action and there's Kerrigan's justifications for action. That said, justifications are not always righteous, regardless of the story having authorial intrusion to suggest it is so.
    Very well then, I don't feel that you've justified Mengsk attacking a Umojan station in any way that compares to Kerrigan's justification for attacking Mengsk. What it looked like, was that you were attempting to divert away from that topic with the whole "attacking the Dominion head on with monsters just to kill one man" rhetoric.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    The Dominion "winning" is like the Protoss "winning" at the end of Sc1 (ie: they didn't really win much if at all). Mengsk is not a man who would rest on his laurels when there are still threats out there like Kerrigan (he's apparently obsessed with Raynor afterall, so why not Kerrigan?). He knows that the Zerg are only really quelled when their leaders are dead and gone but he also knows Kerrigan is still alive and can still control the Zerg. He knows she is resourceful and knows not to let his guard down following what happened in BW after being misled and being defeated despite outnumbering her one Zerg army.
    That is his motivation, but it is not a justification. Also the Dominion 'winning' is not like the Protoss 'winning' in that the latter is clearly a retcon .

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    Even Tassadar? At least he has the excuse of "I was just following orders" initially (and even allowed the Terrans some time to evacuate before glassing their worlds) and still came about on his own accord after reflecting on his own actions. Kerrigan just goes about unleashing the Zerg on any planet with a Dominion presence (which would be almost all of them since the Terrans are more or less unified at that point), kills Protoss unncessarily and only considered changing the way she does things when called out on it/pleaded with by using the morality pet that is Raynor after the fact. Like I said, "lucky" there was someone to call her out and that Raynor was actually still alive, otherwise who knows what would've happened.
    Nope, not Tassadar. When I said 'pretty much everyone' that meant 'almost everyone'. If that's not how that figure of speech works, you have my apology.

    As to her "only considering changing her ways" because of Raynor, that's what I'd like you to substantiate. I still have no evidence of her targeting anything other than military targets against the Dominion, we know that she spared even Dominion soldiers on Char (I have no idea what this ridiculous notion that mentioning Raynor somehow invalidates her actions is all about) and she agrees to take a major handicap to minimise the risks to Korhal civilians of getting caught in the crossfire.

    Again, this makes her look bad compared to whom, exactly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    Like I said, if the Confeds weren't involved, the planets that were invaded by the Zerg wouldn't have known there was a danger to begin with and would've been taken by surprise anyway. They are supposed to be weak fringe colonies afterall.
    How do you figure? Raynor and his militia were all locals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    I have nothing to prove though since you're trying to filter this perspective through your own lens. I'm not the one equating going to Aiur as the Protoss being defeated or that Kerrigan fighting Protoss must equal defeating all the Protoss for all time. Like I said "there is no rule that the Overmind cannot fight Protoss at all on it's own without Kerrigan".
    You're obfuscating. I never equated Kerrigan going to Aiur as the Protoss being defeated. I never equated Kerrigan fighting the Protoss as defeating the Protoss for all time.

    You said yourself that the Overmind went to the Terran worlds to get psionic potential to fight the Protoss, and now you're trying to pass that off as Kerrigan hunting the Dark Templar because they're Protoss, as though I would be satisfied with a semantic technicality. But this isn't about semantics, it's about plot.

    The Overmind's goal was the assimilation of the Protoss.
    The Overmind felt it needed Kerrigan to achieve that goal.
    Despite driving the first act of the game, this is never brought up again, either to confirm, to deny, to clarify or to amend.

    And the Dark Templar are irrelevant. The Overmind did not know about them. They are an additional threat. If Kerrigan is used to neutralise the additional threat, then all that remains is the original threat. The threat that the Overmind felt it needed Kerrigan to deal with.
    Zeratul: I have journeyed through the darkness between the most distant stars. I have beheld the births of negative-suns and borne witness to the entropy of entire realities...
    Aldaris: Did not! That doesn't even make sense!
    Zeratul: Shut up, I totally did!

  6. #186

    Default Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    You're arguing that mengsk considers Raynor to be a greater threat than the Zerg because he's 'pragmatic'?
    What? Where did I say that? All I did was poke fun at the thought of Mengsk being "obsessed" with Raynor since he's the only real threat to him at that time and it's not as if the Zerg were doing anything to stop him greatly improving the lot of the Terrans in general between BW and SC2.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    Very well then, I don't feel that you've justified Mengsk attacking a Umojan station in any way that compares to Kerrigan's justification for attacking Mengsk.
    It's a matter of perspective. Mengsk is not attacking a Umojan station as his main goal, he's attacking Kerrigan. The Umojans are just in the way, much like how the Dominion is just in the way of Kerrigan, whose main goal is to kill Mengsk.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    That is his motivation, but it is not a justification.
    That's a hairsplit. There's no justification in Kerrigan's goal of killing Mensk either but it is largely motivated by revenge. Indeed, she even outright states she "justifies nothing" at one point.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    Nope, not Tassadar. When I said 'pretty much everyone' that meant 'almost everyone'.
    It was hard to tell since when I tried to compare that difference between Tassadar and Kerrigan, you shifted to comparing Mengsk and Kerrigan.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    I still have no evidence of her targeting anything other than military targets against the Dominion
    When the "military target" is a whole entire planet, it brings into the question of morally acceptable collateral damage. Like I said before, "just" military actions have to factor that in. It clearly wasn't a factor worth considering for Kerrigan. It's like using a drone to kill a terrorist, who happens to be hiding in a school and then defending that action by saying "well, I was targeting only the military target so everything's OK!".

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    As to her "only considering changing her ways" because of Raynor, that's what I'd like you to substantiate....we know that she spared even Dominion soldiers on Char (I have no idea what this ridiculous notion that mentioning Raynor somehow invalidates her actions is all about) and she agrees to take a major handicap to minimise the risks to Korhal civilians of getting caught in the crossfire.
    She only let's the Dominion soldiers go after being chastised by Warfield about how ashamed Raynor would be if he were still here to see her do this. Were it not for that, she would've outright slew them all! Raynor is being invoked here as a morality pet for Kerrigan and it worked. As to the Korhal thing, this minimising of civilian casualties occurs after Raynor himself admonishes her after seeing her being infested and ugly again (what a superficial jerk ) after being rescued. Since Kerrigan only has a conscience when Raynor is around and alive to cast judgements on her, she acts like Raynor would on Korhal because otherwise Raynor's judgements of her will be justified if she doesn't. One only has to consider what would've happened had Raynor been actually killed - I certainly wouldn't expect her to save any civilians that's for sure. That's partially why her characterisation is so terrible and lacking in agecny in HotS since it basically says "oh noes, my value as a person is solely dependent on how this one person thinks of me!"

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    Again, this makes her look bad compared to whom, exactly?
    It still stands that her actions are morally questionable in isolation. That's the point. I'm not comparing it to anything/anyone else unless I specify otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    How do you figure? Raynor and his militia were all locals.
    How do I figure what? That they're supposedly weak fringe colonies? How does Raynor factor into it? You think the Confeds expect Raynor to be the miliary prodigy (which he apparently is but only becomes attributed to him later) at that point in time? You expecting them to think he's the protagonist of some piece of fiction and will singlehandely destroy all the Zerg that invade Mar Sara?

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    You said yourself that the Overmind went to the Terran worlds to get psionic potential to fight the Protoss, and now you're trying to pass that off as Kerrigan hunting the Dark Templar because they're Protoss, as though I would be satisfied with a semantic technicality.
    I'm not passing off anything. You can't even refute that Kerrigan (the psionic potential to fight Protoss - the very purpose she is actually fulfilling as set by the Overmind) is not fighting Protoss.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    The Overmind's goal was the assimilation of the Protoss.
    The Overmind felt it needed Kerrigan to achieve that goal.
    Incorrect. The Overmind did not feel it needed for Kerrigan to achieve the goal of assimilating Protoss, she was only needed to fight Protoss. Sure, fighting the Protoss effectively would potentially lead to the ultimate goal of assimilating the Protoss being realised but it is not a singular myopic route. It never says Kerrigan must be present in order to assimilate Protoss.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    And the Dark Templar are irrelevant. The Overmind did not know about them. They are an additional threat. If Kerrigan is used to neutralise the additional threat, then all that remains is the original threat. The threat that the Overmind felt it needed Kerrigan to deal with.
    I've stopped talking about Dark Templar specifically many posts ago in the interests of trying to counter your position by adopting it - don't know why you keep bringing them up since I know it's a bugbear of yours with this topic of conversation. As far as I'm concerned the DT and Tassadar are just "Protoss in general" for the purposes of this position I'm putting forward.
    Yes, that's right! That is indeed ME on the right.


    _______________________________________________

  7. #187

    Default Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    What? Where did I say that? All I did was poke fun at the thought of Mengsk being "obsessed" with Raynor since he's the only real threat to him at that time and it's not as if the Zerg were doing anything to stop him greatly improving the lot of the Terrans in general between BW and SC2.
    It's not like the Zerg were doing anything to hinder him before he attacked the Umojan station either. In fact, he'd finally started to clear out Char itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    It's a matter of perspective. Mengsk is not attacking a Umojan station as his main goal, he's attacking Kerrigan. The Umojans are just in the way, much like how the Dominion is just in the way of Kerrigan, whose main goal is to kill Mengsk.
    I understand that. But I don't see how that pertains. Kerrigan was an Umojan prisoner there, separated and deprived of the Swarm. Mengsk is still Emperor of the Terran Dominion. Mengsk was still attacking an independent nation holding that prisoner, while Kerrigan was attacking Mengsk's Dominion. And the Umojans conspiring with Dominion rebels is not equivalent justification for war to the atrocities Mengsk has committed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    That's a hairsplit. There's no justification in Kerrigan's goal of killing Mensk either but it is largely motivated by revenge. Indeed, she even outright states she "justifies nothing" at one point.
    She's not, I am. And you are. You're the one who made this about 'just war', remember?

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    It was hard to tell since when I tried to compare that difference between Tassadar and Kerrigan, you shifted to comparing Mengsk and Kerrigan.
    What do you want to compare regarding Kerrigan and Tassadar? I'm not sure if Tassadar has earned redemption, but I know that Kerrigan has not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    When the "military target" is a whole entire planet, it brings into the question of morally acceptable collateral damage. Like I said before, "just" military actions have to factor that in. It clearly wasn't a factor worth considering for Kerrigan. It's like using a drone to kill a terrorist, who happens to be hiding in a school and then defending that action by saying "well, I was targeting only the military target so everything's OK!".
    I agree if you can demonstrate a civilian population on those worlds.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    She only let's the Dominion soldiers go after being chastised by Warfield about how ashamed Raynor would be if he were still here to see her do this. Were it not for that, she would've outright slew them all! Raynor is being invoked here as a morality pet for Kerrigan and it worked. As to the Korhal thing, this minimising of civilian casualties occurs after Raynor himself admonishes her after seeing her being infested and ugly again (what a superficial jerk ) after being rescued. Since Kerrigan only has a conscience when Raynor is around and alive to cast judgements on her, she acts like Raynor would on Korhal because otherwise Raynor's judgements of her will be justified if she doesn't. One only has to consider what would've happened had Raynor been actually killed - I certainly wouldn't expect her to save any civilians that's for sure. That's partially why her characterisation is so terrible and lacking in agecny in HotS since it basically says "oh noes, my value as a person is solely dependent on how this one person thinks of me!"
    You keep repeating this "doing good things doesn't count if you think of Raynor while doing it!" as though this holds some kind of logic, but it doesn't. Moral frameworks aren't built in a vacuum. If someone does good things out of a rational examination of the outcomes of possible choices, that doesn't make them evil. If someone does good things because it's their religious belief to do so, that doesn't make them evil. If someone does good things because they were inspired to do good by their dead lover, that doesn't make them evil. And she takes extra care of civilians on Korhal because, as far as I know, it's the only time she's attacked a Dominion target with a significant civilian population. Incidentally, she first contacts Valerian about helping the population on Korhal of her own accord, and Raynor is explicitly not there. But hey, Raynor exists, therefore all good things are evil.

    Oh, and she wasn't "acting like Raynor would on Korhal". We've seen Raynor attack Augustgrad before in Queen of Blades and no such extraordinary precautions were taken.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    It still stands that her actions are morally questionable in isolation. That's the point. I'm not comparing it to anything/anyone else unless I specify otherwise.
    If you want to discuss morality without context, you must first establish an objective and absolute system of morality. Good luck with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    How do I figure what? That they're supposedly weak fringe colonies? How does Raynor factor into it? You think the Confeds expect Raynor to be the miliary prodigy (which he apparently is but only becomes attributed to him later) at that point in time? You expecting them to think he's the protagonist of some piece of fiction and will singlehandely destroy all the Zerg that invade Mar Sara?
    Raynor and his militia demonstrably fight back the invasion and make progress against the Zerg. Therefore, why would the Confederates assume that the colonials would've been easily taken?

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    I'm not passing off anything. You can't even refute that Kerrigan (the psionic potential to fight Protoss - the very purpose she is actually fulfilling as set by the Overmind) is not fighting Protoss.
    Why would I refute it? Why would I care?

    This is what I mean by semantic nonesense. You're acting like there's some weird, absolute and specifically worded prophecy that says that Kerrigan has to fight something called 'Protoss'. There is not. The Overmind wanted it to fight Protoss because fighting Protoss was necessary to achieve its goal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    Incorrect. The Overmind did not feel it needed for Kerrigan to achieve the goal of assimilating Protoss, she was only needed to fight Protoss. Sure, fighting the Protoss effectively would potentially lead to the ultimate goal of assimilating the Protoss being realised but it is not a singular myopic route. It never says Kerrigan must be present in order to assimilate Protoss.
    Leaving aside that the manual clearly states that it did, why did it not invade Aiur instead of dicking around in the Terran worlds, suffering considerable losses to purged worlds, and alerting the Protoss to its presence and means? Did it feel that right before the final dungeon was the best time to go around finishing all those sidequests it had accumulated? Why didn't it go away to assimilate other species and return later since clearly it didn't actually care about invading Aiur that much? Why did it want Kerrigan to fight "a thing that could be called Protoss" in the first place?

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    I've stopped talking about Dark Templar specifically many posts ago in the interests of trying to counter your position by adopting it - don't know why you keep bringing them up since I know it's a bugbear of yours with this topic of conversation. As far as I'm concerned the DT and Tassadar are just "Protoss in general" for the purposes of this position I'm putting forward.
    No you haven't. You can call them 'Tassadar and the Dark Templar' or you can call them 'Protoss in general' all you wish, that doesn't change who they are. And they're all you talk about.
    Zeratul: I have journeyed through the darkness between the most distant stars. I have beheld the births of negative-suns and borne witness to the entropy of entire realities...
    Aldaris: Did not! That doesn't even make sense!
    Zeratul: Shut up, I totally did!

  8. #188

    Default Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    It's not like the Zerg were doing anything to hinder him before he attacked the Umojan station either.
    Yeah, by attacking and killing Kerrigan he's going to ensure the Zerg will keep on doing nothing to hinder him.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    I understand that. But I don't see how that pertains. Kerrigan was an Umojan prisoner there, separated and deprived of the Swarm. Mengsk is still Emperor of the Terran Dominion. Mengsk was still attacking an independent nation holding that prisoner, while Kerrigan was attacking Mengsk's Dominion. And the Umojans conspiring with Dominion rebels is not equivalent justification for war to the atrocities Mengsk has committed.
    Mengsk would still feel justified to attack from his POV. His son is conspiring against him and has enlisted the "terrorist" Raynor in his cause and now Kerrigan, who is still capable of wielding the power of the Zerg. All three are powerful enemies of the state, are a threat to the current established status quo and have a direct beef with him. That they all have now enlisted with a nation that is anti-Dominion and has a history of conflict with the Dominion is icing on the cake. Sure, he's attacking something just on the basis of pure association I hear you say, but Kerrigan attacks the Dominion forces just because of their association with Mengsk.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    What do you want to compare regarding Kerrigan and Tassadar?
    Dont' worry about it, was just trying to clear something up.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    I agree if you can demonstrate a civilian population on those worlds.
    Only if you can demonstrate that there wasn't a civilian population on those worlds.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    You keep repeating this "doing good things doesn't count if you think of Raynor while doing it!" as though this holds some kind of logic, but it doesn't.
    That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that Kerrigan isn't inherently "good" and/or didn't have "good" intentions with regards to her initial actions, not that she can't be good or that any good actions she does do are still evil. Without any further reference to Raynor aside from Mengsk's announcement that Raynor was executed throughout HotS, Kerrigan would have not have left Warfield's men go or considered sparing civilians as per her original intent.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    Raynor and his militia demonstrably fight back the invasion and make progress against the Zerg.
    Yes, and you expected the Confeds to expect that a nobody and their militia could stop a force they know is dangerous enough to give their own armies pause in advance of it (Raynor being able to beat back Zerg and defeat them wholesale forever more) actually happening?

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    This is what I mean by semantic nonesense. You're acting like there's some weird, absolute and specifically worded prophecy that says that Kerrigan has to fight something called 'Protoss'. There is not. The Overmind wanted it to fight Protoss because fighting Protoss was necessary to achieve its goal.
    You're not getting it. If Kerrigan fighting the Protoss is necessary to achieve the Overminds goal and Kerrigan is fighting the Protoss, it therefore means the Overmind is achieving its goal (which is what we have). Hence, if you're saying the Overmind is not achieving its goal then that means Kerrigan is not fighting Protoss - which is patently not true. It's either that or you're saying the Overmind is achieving its goal but Kerrigan is not fighting Protoss - which is patently not true. That's why your position is confusing.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    Leaving aside that the manual clearly states that it did, why did it not invade Aiur instead of dicking around in the Terran worlds, suffering considerable losses to purged worlds, and alerting the Protoss to its presence and means? Did it feel that right before the final dungeon was the best time to go around finishing all those sidequests it had accumulated? Why didn't it go away to assimilate other species and return later since clearly it didn't actually care about invading Aiur that much? Why did it want Kerrigan to fight "a thing that could be called Protoss" in the first place?
    Because it wanted a counter to the Protoss' power. It felt that once it had this counter, it'd be unstoppable. Lo and behold, this is its actual mindset for rest of the campaign once Kerrigan is reborn into the Swarm.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    No you haven't. You can call them 'Tassadar and the Dark Templar' or you can call them 'Protoss in general' all you wish, that doesn't change who they are. And they're all you talk about.
    Given that the Overminds goal revolves around Protoss, I can't exactly not talk about them can I? And I'm the one that's accused of obfuscation....
    Last edited by Turalyon; 12-10-2015 at 08:24 AM.
    Yes, that's right! That is indeed ME on the right.


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  9. #189

    Default Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    Yeah, by attacking and killing Kerrigan he's going to ensure the Zerg will keep on doing nothing to hinder him.
    You mean like the Overmind's death ensured that the Zerg were never a hindrance again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    Mengsk would still feel justified to attack from his POV. His son is conspiring against him and has enlisted the "terrorist" Raynor in his cause and now Kerrigan, who is still capable of wielding the power of the Zerg. All three are powerful enemies of the state, are a threat to the current established status quo and have a direct beef with him. That they all have now enlisted with a nation that is anti-Dominion and has a history of conflict with the Dominion is icing on the cake. Sure, he's attacking something just on the basis of pure association I hear you say, but Kerrigan attacks the Dominion forces just because of their association with Mengsk.
    It's stretching quite a bit to compare that with Mengsk being "associated" with the Dominion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    Only if you can demonstrate that there wasn't a civilian population on those worlds.
    You're the one making the assertion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that Kerrigan isn't inherently "good" and/or didn't have "good" intentions with regards to her initial actions, not that she can't be good or that any good actions she does do are still evil. Without any further reference to Raynor aside from Mengsk's announcement that Raynor was executed throughout HotS, Kerrigan would have not have left Warfield's men go or considered sparing civilians as per her original intent.
    You've not demonstrated in any way that she intended to kill all the civilians before Raynor was freed, and you've not justified why thinking of Raynor invalidates her actions regarding Warfield's men.

    Though I do not contest that Kerrigan is not good, or that her intentions aren't good. I merely claim that her intentions are not evil and her actions are beneficial.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    Yes, and you expected the Confeds to expect that a nobody and their militia could stop a force they know is dangerous enough to give their own armies pause in advance of it (Raynor being able to beat back Zerg and defeat them wholesale forever more) actually happening?
    Wait, when did the Zerg give the Confederate armies pause at this point?

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    You're not getting it. If Kerrigan fighting the Protoss is necessary to achieve the Overminds goal and Kerrigan is fighting the Protoss, it therefore means the Overmind is achieving its goal (which is what we have). Hence, if you're saying the Overmind is not achieving its goal then that means Kerrigan is not fighting Protoss - which is patently not true. It's either that or you're saying the Overmind is achieving its goal but Kerrigan is not fighting Protoss - which is patently not true. That's why your position is confusing.
    Except I've already told you that the Dark Templar are a new, additional threat, therefore fighting them does nothing to counter the original threat which Kerrigan was needed for.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    Because it wanted a counter to the Protoss' power. It felt that once it had this counter, it'd be unstoppable. Lo and behold, this is its actual mindset for rest of the campaign once Kerrigan is reborn into the Swarm.
    Can you confirm with anything from the game that Tassadar and the Dark Templar were 'the Protoss' power' and that once defeated, the Protoss were no longer a threat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    Given that the Overminds goal revolves around Protoss, I can't exactly not talk about them can I? And I'm the one that's accused of obfuscation....
    You're the one who said you stopped talking about them. Literally the last post you made.
    Zeratul: I have journeyed through the darkness between the most distant stars. I have beheld the births of negative-suns and borne witness to the entropy of entire realities...
    Aldaris: Did not! That doesn't even make sense!
    Zeratul: Shut up, I totally did!

  10. #190

    Default Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    You mean like the Overmind's death ensured that the Zerg were never a hindrance again?
    Kerrigan is not like the Overmind. Last time I checked she can't be reconstituted once killed... unless you want me to expect DEM (which I kinda do now with Sc anyways unfortunately )

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    It's stretching quite a bit to compare that with Mengsk being "associated" with the Dominion.
    What's stretching? The Dominion is evil because it's associated with Mengsk, is it not? That's what makes Kerrigan's actions against them just, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    You're the one making the assertion.
    Just as you are making the assertion that Kerrigan attacking the Dominion is just.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    Though I do not contest that Kerrigan is not good, or that her intentions aren't good. I merely claim that her intentions are not evil and her actions are beneficial.
    That's good enough for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    Wait, when did the Zerg give the Confederate armies pause at this point?
    It didn't. That part (about being dangerous enough to give them pause - I didn't say it actually did) was said as a figure of speech to say that the Confeds know more about the Zerg and how dangerous they can be. If you wanted to include the EU and the precursor missions just before Sc1's Rebel Yell (yeah, yeah, I know how you feel about all that), the Confeds and Duke fought the Zerg on Chau Sara with limited success but was eventually overrun by Zerg anyway. That and Duke gets taken down by Zerg later during Rebel Yell. Besides, you didn't answer my question.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    Except I've already told you that the Dark Templar are a new, additional threat, therefore fighting them does nothing to counter the original threat which Kerrigan was needed for.
    She's not fighting just Dark Templar/this new, additional threat though since there are regular Protoss there, too... unless you're saying they're not part of the original threat that she is needed to counter. I would find that hard to believe, not that it would make a lick of sense in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    Can you confirm with anything from the game that Tassadar and the Dark Templar were 'the Protoss' power' and that once defeated, the Protoss were no longer a threat?
    This works both ways since I can replace "were" with "weren't" in the above statement and throw it back at you. Also, do you consider the Overmind successfully invading Aiur as the Protoss being no longer a threat? Not that Tasssadar or Zeratul or the Dark Templar or Aiur or anything Protoss related specifically apparently matters according to you... unless it suits your position.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    You're the one who said you stopped talking about them. Literally the last post you made.
    What do you mean by "them"? I said I stopped talking about "Dark Templar specifically" not "Protoss in general". If I can't even talk about the Protoss when the topic is about them, I have no idea what else you want from me.



    In the interests of reaching of a middle ground, I want you to try and consider the following interpretation. You mentioned in one of your previous posts about my position only being possible if the Overmind thought the Protoss were essentially defeated before it got to Aiur and that I needed evidence for it. What if this is actually true and already self-evident in the campaign? The manual states the Overmind considers what it seeks amongst the Terrans is the final determinant in its victory over the Protoss. This can be taken as to mean that the successful acquisition of psionic potential (Kerrigan) itself is synonymous and tantamount to the defeat of the Protoss even though it is not in actuality.

    It sort of makes sense given the Overmind likes to preordain and treats everything it does as some sort of manifest destiny. There's proof of this concept when it openly declares that what it has "wrought this day shall be the undoing of my enemies" in reference to Kerrigan's re-emergence and continues to proclaim victory at every other turn from thereonin. It also explains why the Overmind is nowhere near in-despair from any point in the campaign in contrary to what you believe because the Overmind was on the verge of "winning" more or less (in its mind) by the time the Overmind campaign starts (it has the chrysalis). Later on, it has "won" by the time Infested Kerrigan has hatched because it's final determinant is realised and that everything else that follows is a foregone conclusion. In that light, no matter what Infested Kerrigan does or does not do from that point, the Overmind has considered itself to be victorious just due to her very presence/existence.

    Sure, one could argue and say this was not explicitly mentioned but then again, neither is Raynor and Kerrigan being in love in Rebel Yell explicitly mentioned either. Somehow, people accept the Raynor/Kerrigan in love as fact even without Sc2 to confirm it all because it was seemingly "suggested". I can't see why "suggestion" is not good enough for the Overminds case here.
    Yes, that's right! That is indeed ME on the right.


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