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Thread: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts

  1. #171

    Default Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    Kinda. I'm questioning whether Kerrigan's actions in HotS can be wholly considered a "just war". I think it's debatable and there are points for either end.
    I agree. However, within the context of the StarCraft series, I believe it is well within the standards established by other conflicts that have been coded as 'just', aside from fighting against things whose lives are coded as without value, like the Zerg.

    (The rest of this argument is getting pretty confusing to me, so I'm going to assume this is the thrust of your argument and focus on it. Don't hesitate to bring any of your other points back to my attention if you think they're important.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    From a neutral perspective, giving that assignment to the Magistrate is certainly for the colonists benefit in a "I know what's best for you"- kind of way (since the alternative is getting ultimately nommed by the Zerg) even though it may serve some other agenda.
    Interesting. I always thought they were being moved into the Wastelands because that's where the Zerg were, and the Confederates wanted to see them in action.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    Easy. His "non-Dark Templar" problems are the Protoss in general. The Protoss are a problem as they were (you know, the whole Overmind despairing thing you like to latch onto) and still are.

    I'm afraid it is relevent since I never said the Overmind forgot or changed his motivation of using Kerrigan against the Protoss.

    Really? How? All I've said recently is that Kerrigan is fighting Protoss which she can do anywhere there's Protoss. It just so happens that there's some on Char.

    You do like to go back to this "Overmind in despair" thing, don't you? The manual does say the Overmind was on the verge of despair but never went into despair. It well could've stopped when it discovered that humanity had psionic potential or when it finally captured Kerrigan. So tell me this, aside from the manual, where in the Overmind campaign itself does the Overmind actually show despair whenever it has to consider engaging the Protoss? Where is this despair that is, according to you, "forgotten"?
    Quote Originally Posted by Nissa View Post
    That's kinda my point. You guys are debating on whether or not Kerrigan should logically have gone to Aiur based on her usefulness to the swarm when the fact of the matter is we never knew her specific purpose at all. It never showed up in gameplay and only slightly in story. There's no point debating it when there isn't enough information to debate over. It's all speculation.
    I'm pretty certain you still don't understand my point here, so maybe if I approach this in a different way it'll make things clearer. What was the Overmind's motivation for invading the Terran worlds in the early stages of StarCraft?
    Zeratul: I have journeyed through the darkness between the most distant stars. I have beheld the births of negative-suns and borne witness to the entropy of entire realities...
    Aldaris: Did not! That doesn't even make sense!
    Zeratul: Shut up, I totally did!

  2. #172

    Default Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    However, within the context of the StarCraft series, I believe it is well within the standards established by other conflicts that have been coded as 'just', aside from fighting against things whose lives are coded as without value, like the Zerg.
    I find that describing Kerrigan's actions against Mengsk in HotS as being more about vengeance and a vendetta than it being a "just war". Her initial intent for starting such a war was anything but just. Her conduct of the war may be somewhat "just" in some areas but her intent is always in contention. She only co-opted others opinions about what she was doing and restrained herself only when chastised (and not always even then) during the war she had already started. Also, after ending the war and displacing the existing unifying Terran force, she leaves the Terrans alone to rebuild the damage she wrought without helping! Worse, by the end of LotV, she leaves the Zerg in the hands of Zagara, who will most likely seek to ravage the Terrans in the near future.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    Interesting. I always thought they were being moved into the Wastelands because that's where the Zerg were, and the Confederates wanted to see them in action.
    That is indeed an interesting interpretation. I would've thought the Confeds would've known and seen their handiwork with the Zerg on Chau Sara (and it's subsequent burning) without having to do that again on Mar Sara. But who knows, maybe there was some conspiracy afoot that Duke secretly knows about. I'm calling it: Duke is evil and morally bankrupt!

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    I'm pretty certain you still don't understand my point here, so maybe if I approach this in a different way it'll make things clearer.
    I do understand it, I'm just testing your position.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    What was the Overmind's motivation for invading the Terran worlds in the early stages of StarCraft?
    The Overmind's reason for invading the Terran worlds was to find some psionic potential. It had hoped that this would help it fight Protoss better.
    Yes, that's right! That is indeed ME on the right.


    _______________________________________________

  3. #173

    Default Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    I'm pretty certain you still don't understand my point here, so maybe if I approach this in a different way it'll make things clearer. What was the Overmind's motivation for invading the Terran worlds in the early stages of StarCraft?
    Did you get my point? The Overmind needed human psychics for genetic manipulation, but no part of the game states he needed Kerrigan (or a Kerrigan-analogue) to directly fight Protoss. We don't know that she's better at fighting DTs than other Zerg. It's plausible, but we don't know that. We don't know that she's better at fighting Protoss in general. If the Overmind had specific plans for her (which is debatable), we have no way of knowing whether or not her going to Aiur was a part of those plans, and so we can't say if it was weird or not.
    "Seeing Fenix once more perplexes me. I feel sadness, when I should feel joy."
    - Artanis.

  4. #174

    Default Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    I find that describing Kerrigan's actions against Mengsk in HotS as being more about vengeance and a vendetta than it being a "just war". Her initial intent for starting such a war was anything but just. Her conduct of the war may be somewhat "just" in some areas but her intent is always in contention. She only co-opted others opinions about what she was doing and restrained herself only when chastised (and not always even then) during the war she had already started. Also, after ending the war and displacing the existing unifying Terran force, she leaves the Terrans alone to rebuild the damage she wrought without helping! Worse, by the end of LotV, she leaves the Zerg in the hands of Zagara, who will most likely seek to ravage the Terrans in the near future.
    Her initial intent for "starting" the war was that Mengsk sent a fleet of Battlecruisers to try to kill her and murdered her allies and loved ones. Again, I'm not seeing how injustices don't count if they're perpetrated against you, not how this compares unfavourably with previous rebellions in this series. Mengsk joined the Korhal rebellion after his family was killed. Raynor joined the Sons of Korhal after he was unjustly imprisoned for trying to defend his fellow colonists. Then he rebelled against Mengsk when he abandoned Kerrigan to die.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    That is indeed an interesting interpretation. I would've thought the Confeds would've known and seen their handiwork with the Zerg on Chau Sara (and it's subsequent burning) without having to do that again on Mar Sara. But who knows, maybe there was some conspiracy afoot that Duke secretly knows about. I'm calling it: Duke is evil and morally bankrupt!
    I mean, I know Arcturus is just trying to pump up some righteous fury into his troops when he claims that, but the part in Desperate Alliance where the Adjutant says that the Confederates arrest anyone trying to resist the Zerg seem well in line with that. I've also found it interesting the Duke wasn't in the briefing for The Trump Card.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    I do understand it, I'm just testing your position.
    Are you sure? Because I "like to go back to this "Overmind in despair" thing" because it's the entire problem, and I only care about Kerrigan insofar as she's the only demonstrated solution. Any non-Kerrigan solution illustrated in the game are welcome.

    See, if the Overmind had invaded the Terran world because he couldn't find "the secret location of Aiur" and ventured a guess that maybe only a telepath could find it, or something like that, then I wouldn't care that it doesn't work or get brought up again, because we already have a demonstrated solution in Zeratul's killing of Zasz. This problem is the entire motivation for StarCraft's first arc, and it gets forgotten.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    The Overmind's reason for invading the Terran worlds was to find some psionic potential. It had hoped that this would help it fight Protoss better.
    And I assume you'll agree that it stopped its invasion of the Terran worlds because it found what it was looking for? Did it help him fight the Protoss?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nissa View Post
    Did you get my point? The Overmind needed human psychics for genetic manipulation, but no part of the game states he needed Kerrigan (or a Kerrigan-analogue) to directly fight Protoss. We don't know that she's better at fighting DTs than other Zerg. It's plausible, but we don't know that. We don't know that she's better at fighting Protoss in general. If the Overmind had specific plans for her (which is debatable), we have no way of knowing whether or not her going to Aiur was a part of those plans, and so we can't say if it was weird or not.
    Yes, I did.
    Zeratul: I have journeyed through the darkness between the most distant stars. I have beheld the births of negative-suns and borne witness to the entropy of entire realities...
    Aldaris: Did not! That doesn't even make sense!
    Zeratul: Shut up, I totally did!

  5. #175

    Default Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts

    Don't forget that the Overmind peered into Zeratuals mind. He could of taken out more information than just the location of Auir. He could have taken perhaps instantly learned about the High Templar/Dark Templar division and the fact that there were no Dark Templar on Auir. So leaving Kerrigan behind to deal the the Dark Templar while the Overmind and all the cerebrates head off to invade Auir isn't really risky.

  6. #176

    Default Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    Her initial intent for "starting" the war was that Mengsk sent a fleet of Battlecruisers to try to kill her and murdered her allies and loved ones. Again, I'm not seeing how injustices don't count if they're perpetrated against you, not how this compares unfavourably with previous rebellions in this series.
    But in that vein, is Mengsk not "just" in continuing to attack and attempt to put down an un-reasonable, sociopathic individual who leads a bunch of murderous creatures that can and has shown willingness to consume/control the whole sector? What you are arguing towards is moral relativity.

    Besides, what you are saying refers to a character's motivation (of a sort) in order to do something or another more than anything else. Having justification for an action does not necessarily imply what one is doing is actually justice/just. I admit thought that there's a fine line between the two that's for sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    I mean, I know Arcturus is just trying to pump up some righteous fury into his troops when he claims that, but the part in Desperate Alliance where the Adjutant says that the Confederates arrest anyone trying to resist the Zerg seem well in line with that. I've also found it interesting the Duke wasn't in the briefing for The Trump Card.
    I'm not refuting your interpretation but if one were to take the perspective that Duke was in the dark, just following orders/going by the book and not part of some wider Confed conspiracy, the "arresting of all standing militia and taking no action against the Zerg" could possibly also be seen as a life-saving endeavour because they know it's pointless and suicidal to go up against the Zerg. Afterall, the comment comes from the adjutant, a neutral party whose words do not necessarily imply one instance or another. As to Duke not commenting in the The Trump Card, if he was oblivious to the Confed "conspiracy" from the get go, it'd explain his silence because he wouldn't know better to rebut. To him, he's probably buying into Mengsk's rhetoric just like everyone else. You know, talking about all this makes me appreciate how much I liked the room for greyness in Sc1 and how Sc2, in contrast, heavily dissuades it.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    Are you sure? Because I "like to go back to this "Overmind in despair" thing" because it's the entire problem, and I only care about Kerrigan insofar as she's the only demonstrated solution.

    See, if the Overmind had invaded the Terran world because he couldn't find "the secret location of Aiur" and ventured a guess that maybe only a telepath could find it, or something like that, then I wouldn't care that it doesn't work or get brought up again, because we already have a demonstrated solution in Zeratul's killing of Zasz. This problem is the entire motivation for StarCraft's first arc, and it gets forgotten.
    Course I do, you're just conflating me having a counterpoint as me being (willfully or otherwise) dense or misunderstanding. The "Overmind in despair" is a linch-pin for your position and as I've mentioned previously, without the manual, it's actually pretty hard to tell that the Overmind is in despair in the campaign itself. I have also mentioned that the Overmind was never technically in despair. It was on the verge and then it found a possible solution in Humanity - this was even before it actually even captured a speciman with the psionic potential it wanted (Kerrigan). If the Overmind was not in despair after having realised it had a possible solution at hand, it would stand to reason it was not in despair even moreso after having actually acquired it.

    The reason why I've painstakingly mentioned all this again is only because your position posits this "despair" as the entire problem. I'm just showing you the possibility that it may not be. The problem you see existing from the manual (which is potentially doubtful as well) doesn't seem to carry on to the campaign since it tends to highlight Kerrigan's importance as more of a morale boost for the Overmind rather than it being a critically vital part in an all-or-nothing type scenario (which the campaign never actually states in regards to Kerrigan's ultimate use).

    As a personal aside, I quite like the interpretation of Kerrigan being seemingly important (to the Overmind only that is - it tells you something about the Overmind) and not actually being too important (or over-important as later entries will attest) in Sc1 since it makes her and the story feel less plot-devicey and contrived. Especially so, given that the Overmind campaign itself is weakest in terms of narrative and composition generally compared to the other two. And this is someone who's favourite Sc race is Zerg!

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    And I assume you'll agree that it stopped its invasion of the Terran worlds because it found what it was looking for? Did it help him fight the Protoss?
    Yes and yes. The second yes is because it would've psyhologically helped overcome its supposed despair, if not remaining doubts, at fighting Protoss.
    Yes, that's right! That is indeed ME on the right.


    _______________________________________________

  7. #177

    Default Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    But in that vein, is Mengsk not "just" in continuing to attack and attempt to put down an un-reasonable, sociopathic individual who leads a bunch of murderous creatures that can and has shown willingness to consume/control the whole sector? What you are arguing towards is moral relativity.
    No. Kerrigan was defeated and taken by Terran forces. Mengsk does not attack the Zerg Swarm in that moment, he is attacking the Umojan Protectorate. Even if you were to argue against Kerrigan/the Queen of Blades being different people (which is a completely fair position to adopt in this context) she was unambiguously defeated at the end of Wings of Liberty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    Besides, what you are saying refers to a character's motivation (of a sort) in order to do something or another more than anything else. Having justification for an action does not necessarily imply what one is doing is actually justice/just. I admit thought that there's a fine line between the two that's for sure.
    This is true, but by the same token, if we remove Kerrigan's justification from the picture, then is not removing Arcturus just?

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    I'm not refuting your interpretation but if one were to take the perspective that Duke was in the dark, just following orders/going by the book and not part of some wider Confed conspiracy, the "arresting of all standing militia and taking no action against the Zerg" could possibly also be seen as a life-saving endeavour because they know it's pointless and suicidal to go up against the Zerg. Afterall, the comment comes from the adjutant, a neutral party whose words do not necessarily imply one instance or another. As to Duke not commenting in the The Trump Card, if he was oblivious to the Confed "conspiracy" from the get go, it'd explain his silence because he wouldn't know better to rebut. To him, he's probably buying into Mengsk's rhetoric just like everyone else. You know, talking about all this makes me appreciate how much I liked the room for greyness in Sc1 and how Sc2, in contrast, heavily dissuades it.
    Oh, I don't think so. Raynor and his men are specifically arrested after being victorious against the Zerg, and the Zerg are attacking Terran settlements so arresting their forces isn't going to save any lives - unarmed humans aren't going to be better at surviving against the Zerg than colonial Marines. I'm honestly not seeing any of the ambiguity you're talking about here .

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    Course I do, you're just conflating me having a counterpoint as me being (willfully or otherwise) dense or misunderstanding. The "Overmind in despair" is a linch-pin for your position and as I've mentioned previously, without the manual, it's actually pretty hard to tell that the Overmind is in despair in the campaign itself. I have also mentioned that the Overmind was never technically in despair. It was on the verge and then it found a possible solution in Humanity - this was even before it actually even captured a speciman with the psionic potential it wanted (Kerrigan). If the Overmind was not in despair after having realised it had a possible solution at hand, it would stand to reason it was not in despair even moreso after having actually acquired it.
    But none of that is really important. We can just use [Overmind's motivation for Act 1 of StarCraft] instead of the Overmind's despair if it makes it easier on you, it changes nothing to my position at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    The reason why I've painstakingly mentioned all this again is only because your position posits this "despair" as the entire problem. I'm just showing you the possibility that it may not be. The problem you see existing from the manual (which is potentially doubtful as well) doesn't seem to carry on to the campaign since it tends to highlight Kerrigan's importance as more of a morale boost for the Overmind rather than it being a critically vital part in an all-or-nothing type scenario (which the campaign never actually states in regards to Kerrigan's ultimate use).
    Yet I asked you why the Overmind invaded the Terran worlds, and you agreed that he wanted something there to help him fight the Protoss. And if not for this, then the Overmind has no reason to invade the Terran worlds, and the Protoss have no reason to burn them, and the Sons of Korhal have no means of securing their victory over the Confederacy, and the entire first act of StarCraft cannot happen. Then Tassadar's fleet cannot be broken, and he cannot be attracted to Char and meet with the Dark Templar, nor does he befriend Jim Raynor, nor can Zeratul assassinate Zasz and provide the Overmind with the secret location of Aiur. Basically, the Overmind invading the Terran worlds is fundamental to the story of StarCraft, and the Overmind's motivation for doing so is thus likewise fundamental.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    As a personal aside, I quite like the interpretation of Kerrigan being seemingly important (to the Overmind only that is - it tells you something about the Overmind) and not actually being too important (or over-important as later entries will attest) in Sc1 since it makes her and the story feel less plot-devicey and contrived. Especially so, given that the Overmind campaign itself is weakest in terms of narrative and composition generally compared to the other two. And this is someone who's favourite Sc race is Zerg!
    Yes, I can see how that would be interesting (though as to how less important Kerrigan was in StarCraft compared to the sequels, notice that even though the Swarm conquered Tarsonis and the Sons of Korhal specifically prevented Confederate escape, somehow there are no Confederate Ghosts to go along with Kerrigan... she is unique, both as a Terran psychic infested by the Overmind, and she is unique by being the only Zerg whose greatness of spirit has been left intact. She is 'Queen of the Zerg'.) but it still contradicts the entire narrative. All of the Zerg''s actions thus far have been about acquiring and securing Kerrigan. And then suddenly she no longer matters, we're just off to invade Aiur? There is no justification. It makes the series seem disjointed, like everything that occurred before Zasz' death was just farting around because the Overmind didn't know where to go. This element of humanity the Overmind felt was necessary in order to defeat the Protoss is the only connector between Rebel Yell and the rest of the game's story. To turn around and act like, without any explanation or justification, this was completely unnecessary breaks the narrative structure of the story.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    Yes and yes. The second yes is because it would've psyhologically helped overcome its supposed despair, if not remaining doubts, at fighting Protoss.
    And can you support this with material from the game?
    Zeratul: I have journeyed through the darkness between the most distant stars. I have beheld the births of negative-suns and borne witness to the entropy of entire realities...
    Aldaris: Did not! That doesn't even make sense!
    Zeratul: Shut up, I totally did!

  8. #178

    Default Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    No. Kerrigan was defeated and taken by Terran forces. Mengsk does not attack the Zerg Swarm in that moment, he is attacking the Umojan Protectorate. Even if you were to argue against Kerrigan/the Queen of Blades being different people (which is a completely fair position to adopt in this context) she was unambiguously defeated at the end of Wings of Liberty.
    It may have been ambiguous to Mengsk Snr. He has no idea or control over what Valerian did or intends with Kerrigan ever since he went rogue and stole half his fleet. We don't get the benefit of having Mengsk's POV so we can't really say whether he is selfish or pragmatic. One can assume that he's the latter since all we've had from him in the past suggests that but people have made assumptions about Kerrigan's character in WoL being different but that is apparently given a hand-wave with a perfunctory "well, she's different/changed now". Afteralll, I've made similar assumptions about the lack of Protoss involvement at the late stages of WoL being due to them being potentially unable to due to their recent crushing defeats but as you corrected me, we can't assume that because we really just don't know and the reason could be anything.

    Because of that, it is possibile that from Mengsk's POV, he is just wanting to kill someone who would visit untold destruction of the Terran people (how was he to know that when the Zerg invaded Terran space in WoL was not her actually seeking to rub them all out? Even Raynor was convinced she was "finishing the job") and what he has achieved to get the Terrans to a place powerful than what they ever were under the Confeds. It is pointless attacking Zerg unless you go for their "head". Mind you, I'm not being an apologist for him, but Mengsk has justification, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    This is true, but by the same token, if we remove Kerrigan's justification from the picture, then is not removing Arcturus just?
    Yes, of course, but that's potentially reductive if you just say it like that. How you would go about it and how you would deal with the aftermatch would also factor into it though.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    Raynor and his men are specifically arrested after being victorious against the Zerg, and the Zerg are attacking Terran settlements so arresting their forces isn't going to save any lives - unarmed humans aren't going to be better at surviving against the Zerg than colonial Marines.
    No, Raynor is only arrested after destroying a Confederate building. To Duke, it being infested at the time is an inconsequential technicality. Otherwise, they would have been arrested after killing numerous Zerglings, Hydralisks and Creep colonies before then. The relocation of civilians and taking no action against the Zerg could be considered a Fabian strategy which relies on avoidance of direct conflict usually because they feel they have control over the situation and have time on their hands.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    But none of that is really important. We can just use [Overmind's motivation for Act 1 of StarCraft] instead of the Overmind's despair if it makes it easier on you, it changes nothing to my position at all.
    It does though. I'm highlighting that your position advocates the Overmind motivation being a strict "need" (an all or nothing prospect) whereas the alternative interpretation is the Overmind's motivation being a mere "want".

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    Yet I asked you why the Overmind invaded the Terran worlds, and you agreed that he wanted something there to help him fight the Protoss.
    Exactly. I worded it precisely with the word "wanted", not "needed". They are not the same thing. The important thing is that the overall motivation for action is still intact even if the basis of it is a "want" rather than a "need".

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    though as to how less important Kerrigan was in StarCraft compared to the sequels, notice that even though the Swarm conquered Tarsonis and the Sons of Korhal specifically prevented Confederate escape, somehow there are no Confederate Ghosts to go along with Kerrigan... she is unique, both as a Terran psychic infested by the Overmind, and she is unique by being the only Zerg whose greatness of spirit has been left intact. She is 'Queen of the Zerg'.
    I've spent more time than is warranted speculating why this was. I'd fanon the reason that of all Ghosts the Overmind encountered, Kerrigan was probably the only one that accepted infestation and was therefore granted some special priveleges. There was a short story from Blizz titled "The Education of PFC Shane" that somewhat encapsulated what I was thinking long ago about how infestation may require some willingness of the host at some level to work. Unlike resoc'd individuals, I'd assumed Ghosts would have special training and that their psionic powers would engender them to resist the "wiles of the Overmind" such that any Ghosts captured would resist mightily being killed in the process or actively kill themselves before such a thing could even happen. As to why Kerrigan would willingly accept infestation then, well, that's just another layer on the psychology of the character that is worth speculating in another topic.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    All of the Zerg''s actions thus far have been about acquiring and securing Kerrigan. And then suddenly she no longer matters, we're just off to invade Aiur? There is no justification. It makes the series seem disjointed, like everything that occurred before Zasz' death was just farting around because the Overmind didn't know where to go. This element of humanity the Overmind felt was necessary in order to defeat the Protoss is the only connector between Rebel Yell and the rest of the game's story. To turn around and act like, without any explanation or justification, this was completely unnecessary breaks the narrative structure of the story.
    I agree with you in terms of the narrative structure and disjointedness and how it could (not necessarily should) have been more transparent. It's very abrupt considering that the majority of the campaign focuses on the Chrysalis and Kerrigan's reemergence. The focus on nearly half of the campaign on that certainly does give the impression that Kerrigan should've played a role at the end of the campaign and makes you wonder whether it couldn't have been more concise with the Chrysalis babysitting missions and with Kerrigan in general if she wasn't going to be in the final parts of the campaign anyway. Maybe the campaign would've been more transparent if we followed Kerrigan all the way to the end instead of following the Overmind to Aiur.

    That said, I still don't necessarily agree that Kerrigan no longer mattered because it didn't go to Aiur right there and then with the Overmind nor the flipside, that invading Aiur should only be possible if Kerrigan came along at the same time, too. Afterall, the game never stipulates that "defeating the Protoss" means "invading Aiur" and that therefore Kerrigan must also be invading Aiur since she is "the thing that defeats the Protoss". It's not as if Kerrigan is completely sidelined and doing absolutely nothing at all during that time either.

    Sure, she would be of help in forming the beachhead on Aiur but she's not strictly needed to do that - the greater entirety of the Swarm can do that just as well. There's also no rule/ suggestion that the Overmind couldn't just want to save Kerrigan as a trump card or to call her in later if it needed either. Also, I don't consider the end of the Overmind campaign being the Zerg having defeated the Protoss since it's all just flowery rhetoric/projected overconfidence on the part of the Overmind. Besides, even though it's going to be forced to do it by going there, the Overmind's aim for going to Aiur is not to wage war and defeat them in open combat but to have ready access to Protoss so that it can assimilate them. It doesn't necessarily need Kerrigan there to capture Protoss.

    The Overmind could've told us what it was intending to do and give the low-down on the why and wherefores, but it's not beholden to. I don't mind the "Overmind seemed like it was farting around" thing either since it's a character flaw to be read into that the Overmind is not infallible and is doing what it thinks is the best call at the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    And can you support this with material from the game?
    If you read carefully, I used the word "would've" which would naturally imply that I can't back this up with material from the game. I did that on purpose knowing that I don't have proof but keep in mind that I also did say "supposed despair" as well, which indicates whether there was a such condition (and whether there was therefore a strict need to avoid this condition) really exists at all. You have no proof from the game to support that either.
    Yes, that's right! That is indeed ME on the right.


    _______________________________________________

  9. #179

    Default Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    It may have been ambiguous to Mengsk Snr. He has no idea or control over what Valerian did or intends with Kerrigan ever since he went rogue and stole half his fleet. We don't get the benefit of having Mengsk's POV so we can't really say whether he is selfish or pragmatic. One can assume that he's the latter since all we've had from him in the past suggests that but people have made assumptions about Kerrigan's character in WoL being different but that is apparently given a hand-wave with a perfunctory "well, she's different/changed now". Afteralll, I've made similar assumptions about the lack of Protoss involvement at the late stages of WoL being due to them being potentially unable to due to their recent crushing defeats but as you corrected me, we can't assume that because we really just don't know and the reason could be anything.

    Because of that, it is possibile that from Mengsk's POV, he is just wanting to kill someone who would visit untold destruction of the Terran people (how was he to know that when the Zerg invaded Terran space in WoL was not her actually seeking to rub them all out? Even Raynor was convinced she was "finishing the job") and what he has achieved to get the Terrans to a place powerful than what they ever were under the Confeds. It is pointless attacking Zerg unless you go for their "head". Mind you, I'm not being an apologist for him, but Mengsk has justification, too.
    I would certainly not assume that Mengsk is 'pragmatic', not at all. Never mind the fact that I already disagreed with that assessment back in StarCraft, Mengsk's irrational obsession with Raynor should be evidence enough for that. But anyway, even if we followed your hypothetical, that doesn't change anything. The Dominion controls Char at this point. Kerrigan herself is isolated from the Swarm and being held in a Terran cell under Terran watch. Mengsk is not fighting Zerg in that attack, he's fighting Umojans and Raiders and Valerian's men. The Swarm invasion of Wings of Liberty has been repelled, Kerrigan has been defeated, the Dominion has won.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    Yes, of course, but that's potentially reductive if you just say it like that. How you would go about it and how you would deal with the aftermatch would also factor into it though.
    Which is why I asked if there was any evidence of her targeting civilians. She also directly cooperated with Valerian to ensure that the people of the Dominion would be able to rebuild from the invasion. Again, this is above and beyond what other wars in the series have provided.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    No, Raynor is only arrested after destroying a Confederate building. To Duke, it being infested at the time is an inconsequential technicality. Otherwise, they would have been arrested after killing numerous Zerglings, Hydralisks and Creep colonies before then. The relocation of civilians and taking no action against the Zerg could be considered a Fabian strategy which relies on avoidance of direct conflict usually because they feel they have control over the situation and have time on their hands.
    They arrested Raynor after her destroyed the infested Command Center because that provided them with a pretext. There is a blatant discrepancy between how quickly they respond when it comes to arresting Terrans who are defending themselves, compared to how they never respond when Terran settlements are being attacked by the Zerg. The Confederates never showed up to help Backwater Station, they never showed up to help us in Desperate Alliance, they never show up to aid any of the sixteen other stations either. We are flat out told that they have avoided action against the Zerg. Again, StarCraft isn't subtle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    It does though. I'm highlighting that your position advocates the Overmind motivation being a strict "need" (an all or nothing prospect) whereas the alternative interpretation is the Overmind's motivation being a mere "want".
    It doesn't though. My position is what the Overmind "did", not what he "needs" or "wants". He did invade the Terran worlds.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    I've spent more time than is warranted speculating why this was. I'd fanon the reason that of all Ghosts the Overmind encountered, Kerrigan was probably the only one that accepted infestation and was therefore granted some special priveleges. There was a short story from Blizz titled "The Education of PFC Shane" that somewhat encapsulated what I was thinking long ago about how infestation may require some willingness of the host at some level to work. Unlike resoc'd individuals, I'd assumed Ghosts would have special training and that their psionic powers would engender them to resist the "wiles of the Overmind" such that any Ghosts captured would resist mightily being killed in the process or actively kill themselves before such a thing could even happen. As to why Kerrigan would willingly accept infestation then, well, that's just another layer on the psychology of the character that is worth speculating in another topic.
    Interesting theory, but I can't agree. Kerrigan instinctively reached out to Arcturus and Raynor telepathically while she was in the chrysalis. Her conversation with Raynor makes it plain that this was because she was different then from who she is now, someone who likes being Zerg.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    That said, I still don't necessarily agree that Kerrigan no longer mattered because it didn't go to Aiur right there and then with the Overmind nor the flipside, that invading Aiur should only be possible if Kerrigan came along at the same time, too. Afterall, the game never stipulates that "defeating the Protoss" means "invading Aiur" and that therefore Kerrigan must also be invading Aiur since she is "the thing that defeats the Protoss". It's not as if Kerrigan is completely sidelined and doing absolutely nothing at all during that time either.

    Sure, she would be of help in forming the beachhead on Aiur but she's not strictly needed to do that - the greater entirety of the Swarm can do that just as well. There's also no rule/ suggestion that the Overmind couldn't just want to save Kerrigan as a trump card or to call her in later if it needed either. Also, I don't consider the end of the Overmind campaign being the Zerg having defeated the Protoss since it's all just flowery rhetoric/projected overconfidence on the part of the Overmind. Besides, even though it's going to be forced to do it by going there, the Overmind's aim for going to Aiur is not to wage war and defeat them in open combat but to have ready access to Protoss so that it can assimilate them. It doesn't necessarily need Kerrigan there to capture Protoss.
    Yeah, but I'm not arguing any of that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    The Overmind could've told us what it was intending to do and give the low-down on the why and wherefores, but it's not beholden to.
    No, but the writers are beholden to tie their story together. This isn't some detail to be left to fan interpretation, this is the core of the main narrative. The entire first half of the story is driven by this motivation, and you can't just forget it without explanation or justification.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    If you read carefully, I used the word "would've" which would naturally imply that I can't back this up with material from the game. I did that on purpose knowing that I don't have proof but keep in mind that I also did say "supposed despair" as well, which indicates whether there was a such condition (and whether there was therefore a strict need to avoid this condition) really exists at all. You have no proof from the game to support that either.
    But I do have proof from the games that the Overmind sent the Zerg to the Terran world looking for psionically gifted humans, and that this invasion is what sets every storyline in motion, and yet there is nothing justifying that invasion within the context of the Overmind's demonstrated goals.
    Zeratul: I have journeyed through the darkness between the most distant stars. I have beheld the births of negative-suns and borne witness to the entropy of entire realities...
    Aldaris: Did not! That doesn't even make sense!
    Zeratul: Shut up, I totally did!

  10. #180

    Default Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    I would certainly not assume that Mengsk is 'pragmatic', not at all. Never mind the fact that I already disagreed with that assessment back in StarCraft, Mengsk's irrational obsession with Raynor should be evidence enough for that.
    Mengsk's irrational obsession with Raynor? Don't you mean the other way round? Afterall, Raynor is the one waging war against him as a means to displace his own anger and inadequacy at not being to do anything about Kerrigan.

    Regardless, Mengsk has just a flimsy justification for attacking Kerrigan as Kerrigan does attacking the Dominion head on with monsters just to kill one man. At least with Mengsk were not being asked to think of his justification as also being righteous.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    The Swarm invasion of Wings of Liberty has been repelled, Kerrigan has been defeated, the Dominion has won.
    Just like how the Protoss won in Sc1?

    Anyways, the Dominion did win but only under Valerian who has gone rogue. Not only as he absconded with half his fleet, he's aligned with highly resourceful threats in the form of a "terrorist" that has been causing trouble that not even trillions of currency can remedy and now, an entity who may still potentially be able to control monsters; both of which have personal grudges against him. Mengsk can never be too sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    Which is why I asked if there was any evidence of her targeting civilians.
    Judgement of her moral fibre in warfare is not solely determined by specific actions against civilians, it can also be due to inaction/lack of due care regarding potential loss in civilians. Afterall, she engages in a "just" war by obtaining a weapon of mass and indiscriminate destruction first and foremost above anything else. That's a pretty slippery slope. Luckily there were people who could conveniently lecture her on the morality of her actions so she take appropriate action but only after the war was already initiated. It's like "Wow, I never knew that killing people that are protecting the only man I really want to kill is a bad thing up until now". It's also lucky that she took those lectures to heart whereas she could have easily resumed having no compunctions (or didn't bother to think about it) like when she first initiated the war.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    They arrested Raynor after her destroyed the infested Command Center because that provided them with a pretext. There is a blatant discrepancy between how quickly they respond when it comes to arresting Terrans who are defending themselves, compared to how they never respond when Terran settlements are being attacked by the Zerg. The Confederates never showed up to help Backwater Station, they never showed up to help us in Desperate Alliance, they never show up to aid any of the sixteen other stations either. We are flat out told that they have avoided action against the Zerg. Again, StarCraft isn't subtle.
    You've forgotten one blatant discrepancy though in all this. If the Confeds are so "active" in taking no action against the Zerg and just want to see what happens, why are they even there/show up at all/deign to make a presence? It can't just be for keeping up appearances to locals since I'd assume they'd expect everyone on those planets with Zerg to be nommed up by them anyway. Also, there is no need to move/relocate colonists (or allocate someone to help do such a thing) into the path of the Zerg since the Zerg will find them soon enough and that the Confeds are the ones who have Psi Emitter tech which means they can direct the Zerg in a fashion afterall. Why even bother arresting the local standing forces if they want to observe the Zerg kill people? Wouldn't that be more interesting/informative to watch them in action against the Zerg? It's not as if they can really stop them. Either way, something doesn't add up.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    My position is what the Overmind "did", not what he "needs" or "wants". He did invade the Terran worlds.
    Seems to me like you're self-defeating your own position. If the specifics of the motivation doesn't matter and that the going to Aiur without Kerrigan doesn't matter, then there is no problem. All we have then, is the Overmind did invade Terran worlds to get something to fight Protoss, found it and then used it to fight Protoss.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    Interesting theory, but I can't agree. Kerrigan instinctively reached out to Arcturus and Raynor telepathically while she was in the chrysalis. Her conversation with Raynor makes it plain that this was because she was different then from who she is now, someone who likes being Zerg.
    When I said accepted infestation, I meant it as she eventually succumbed/accepted infestation as the process was going on (like it did in the short story) not immediately before being placed in a chrysalis. She was probably still resisting somewhat which lead to those psychic emanations. When she finally accepted it, she became a different person in the way how some gain and understand a whole different perspective on their life. Like I said, it's all fanon.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    The entire first half of the story is driven by this motivation, and you can't just forget it without explanation or justification.
    But didn't you just say the specifics of the motivation are irrelevant? If so, there is no need for explanation or justification. Once again in general terms, the Overmind invaded Terran worlds to get a weapon to fight Protoss. It succeeded and proceeded to use it against Protoss. That's it. Where or when doesn't matter since you said you're not concerned about the fact that the Overmind is invading Aiur or any other locale specifically.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    But I do have proof from the games that the Overmind sent the Zerg to the Terran world looking for psionically gifted humans, and that this invasion is what sets every storyline in motion, and yet there is nothing justifying that invasion within the context of the Overmind's demonstrated goals.
    I thought it didn't matter to you that the Overmind invaded Aiur specifically. In that context, Kerrigan is attacking some Protoss whilst the Overmind is just attacking some other Protoss elsewhere. There is no rule that the Overmind cannot fight Protoss at all on it's own without Kerrigan.
    Yes, that's right! That is indeed ME on the right.


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