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Thread: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts

  1. #141

    Default Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    If we can only answer this with "well, the conceit is that this is an RTS game", that's the wrong answer since it is meaningless and has no in-universe value.
    Oh, that's the real reason, but I've provided the in-story reason as well. I've also provided a list of other missions that were created out of similarly flimsy pretexts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    Also, the issue at hand seems to be stemming from Sc2's heavy-handed use of protagonist-centred morality. Dissonance occurs when a character is made out to be so justified and of good intent in their actions that everything they do is seemingly morally correct, no matter how potentially heinous an action may be (it's a problem of the author not being able to distance themselves from the character). It's moral blindness being presented as moral responsibility. Whether Kerrigan actually kills civilians or not specifically is irrelevent to the distinct possibility that her actions in HotS could've possibly involved many and unnecessary deaths.
    No, that's not the issue. For one thing, Kerrigan is not presented as morally correct throughout Heart of the Swarm. I can't even imagine how you would look at Lasarra wrecking Kerrigan's position and think that her defence of "Can't run, Mustn't run. Never again, never again" is the authours demonstrating her as being morally correct. Or her interactions with Warfield about how she's rendered the sacrifices of everyone who tried to save her meaningless by turning back to the Swarm? The problem is that the development was crappily executed, overreached its conclusion and didn't justify itself, not that the authours were blind to what Kerrigan was doing.

    But mostly, the issue I have is that this is completely out of line with what is considered permissible for other characters. Fenix and Raynor infesting Terran miners on Moria for convenience is something that has seemed wildly out of character to me for years, and it's a far cry beyond Gradius' standard of "there might be civilians in those Dominion military facilities!" Yet there is no three page rant about how Fenix is Evil and Morally Bankrupt. Why is that?

    Who is it exactly that can't distance themselves from the characters here?

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    Does it really matter that we have to know the specific role that the title "Magistrate" entails? I wouldn't think so because in-universe, the characters would know and that's enough for the audience to make assumptions since we don't know any better. It's obvious that being a "Magistrate" has to involve some form of authority over other people or at the least, doing something with a fair number of people. You'd expect that someone who has a role involving the direction (or whatever) of people to, at the least, care for people in order to be doing that job, right? What's wrong with making that assumption?
    Well, he's a Confederate official come to pacify Confederate assets. It would seem much more reasonable to me to assume that he's there to make sure the panic doesn't cause the Confederacy trouble.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    ...and Mengsk couldn't have determined that Raynor had a saviour-complex after witnessing what happened in True Colours either. Are you sure you're not just assuming too much from one quote? I know I do it all the time! Seems to me like Mengsk's "good at reading people" ability is just informed ability like his "master of propaganda" ability.
    No, as I've pointed out this is completely consistent with what has been repeated throughout the main storyline of Wings of Liberty, including by Raynor himself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    Disagree away. I'm more enamored of the idea of it being an interesting interpretation than fully believing it to be a concrete and unassailable profile of Mengsk. It's hard to know what Mengsk is actually thinking because we can only assume things based on his actions. It's difficult to know how big his forces were before recruiting Duke. Who knows, maybe Mengsk was recruiting an army by starting small and going to Confederate abandoned worlds. As to the speech about his new Empire being vacuous hogwash, yeah sure, I can accept that since the morality of utilitarianism in general gets a lot of the same type of heat anyway.
    I'm not talking about morality. "The seeds of a new empire have been sown, and if we hope to reap..." is just using flowery language to say "keep working".

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    That's an unreasonable question to ask. The Overmind on Aiur was only in real danger at the end of The Shadow Hunters. It was already overconfident by the end of the Overmind campaign and we are given no indication it would suddenly fear the Protoss. Based on that, we have to infer the Overmind saw no need to bring Kerrigan across. It didn't then, it didn't now. Afterall, the Protoss have been able to kill cerebrates before but it probably didn't register until this particular instance where it couldn't resurrect them. By then it was too late, the Protoss had already laid siege to the Overmind itself and was destroyed. You might as well start blaming the Overmind for not being omniscient or being the god it acts like while you're at it.
    Expecting it to bring its ultimate weapon with it on its most important operation is expecting it to be omniscient or like a god? I'd say it's an entirely reasonable expectation. After it succeeds in assimilating the Protoss, it believes the Swarm will be perfect. This is the most crucial moment in the Zerg's history, and it's just not using it's most valuable tool?

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    So what, you're advocating the Overmind not do anything at all because there could be Dark Templar potentially anywhere and everywhere? That's unreasonable. You might as well say, "Don't take any risks in life at all!"
    You argued that leaving Kerrigan behind was reasonable because it neutralised the Dark Templar. I'm pointing out that it didn't. I'm advocating that the Overmind bring Kerrigan with him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    You're clinging onto the notion that the Overmind will always be in despair and that it can't change based on new information that comes to light/event that occur. For all we know, it stopped despairing when it found and successfully birthed Infested Kerrigan. It could've stopped when it found out that "regular" Protoss can't do squat against his cerebrates, only against it's lesser more numerable and easily replaceable minions. It became over-confident not only because it finally had the psionic potential in was looking for but that she was gaining some measure success over the only real immediate danger to the Zerg and that it could launch a surprise direct assault on the unsuspecting Protoss homeworld. If you don't want to buy that then maybe a slightly risk-averse reason could be that the Overmind just decided to make a tactical decision to do it the way we see in Sc1 because it didn't want an extremely dangerous loose end that could snipe them at any time whilst it was fully committed/all-in.
    Then put it in the story. Look at all the assumptions and intuitive inductions you expect me to make here, and meanwhile you have difficulty accepting that Mengsk was correct about Raynor blaming himself for everything Kerrigan's done, despite it being explicitly stated in the game multiple times. If this had happened in StarCraft II instead of the original game, you'd be up in arms about it. This was the entire justification for the Overmind's invasion of Terran space, and it never gets mentioned?

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    Anyways, even if Kerrigan did go with the Overmind to Aiur, there's no guarantee that it's ultimate fate wouldn't still be the same. Kerrigan did fail to remove the actual and eventual cause of the Overmind's death when given the chance in Sc1, afterall, why is it suddenly not a possibility if Kerrigan went with the Overmind to Aiur still? People tend to think it was an error that Overmind attacked Aiur without Kerrigan thinking that it wouldn't have died or completely defeated the Protoss if it did. That's just silly to me since that notion has to deny any agency the Protoss would have had on that outcome whatsoever.
    I don't think that it would have saved him. I just want the story to be coherent.
    Zeratul: I have journeyed through the darkness between the most distant stars. I have beheld the births of negative-suns and borne witness to the entropy of entire realities...
    Aldaris: Did not! That doesn't even make sense!
    Zeratul: Shut up, I totally did!

  2. #142

    Default Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts

    "Oh, that's the real reason, but I've provided the in-story reason as well. I've also provided a list of other missions that were created out of similarly flimsy pretexts."

    More like excuses and fanon as opposed to actual reasons.

    "No, that's not the issue. For one thing, Kerrigan is not presented as morally correct throughout Heart of the Swarm. I can't even imagine how you would look at Lasarra wrecking Kerrigan's position and think that her defence of "Can't run, Mustn't run. Never again, never again" is the authours demonstrating her as being morally correct. Or her interactions with Warfield about how she's rendered the sacrifices of everyone who tried to save her meaningless by turning back to the Swarm? The problem is that the development was crappily executed, overreached its conclusion and didn't justify itself, not that the authours were blind to what Kerrigan was doing."

    She's presented as "different" and more "human" which is still a load of bull, I gess she's "different" in that she's now a real mass murderer like daddy Mengsk.

    The writers had Kerrigan try to use the "you've killed billion of zerg" remark (ignoring the fact that Protoss are indeed not a singular hive mind) to try to levy some equal guilt, which was hilarious and stupid, yet such a thing was called out by no-one and thus is portrayed straight, which is absurd.

    Your fanon excuses have no backing.

    "But mostly, the issue I have is that this is completely out of line with what is considered permissible for other characters. Fenix and Raynor infesting Terran miners on Moria for convenience is something that has seemed wildly out of character to me for years, and it's a far cry beyond Gradius' standard of "there might be civilians in those Dominion military facilities!" Yet there is no three page rant about how Fenix is Evil and Morally Bankrupt. Why is that?"

    How is Fenix evil and morally bankrupt because he had no choice but assist Kerrigan to defeat people who sought to enslave them all? he wasn't in charge of this action and really had little to do with that part of it, that was Kerrigan and the Cerebrate's objective, the worst Fenix did was steal from the KMC.

    Stop trying to equate these things you dishonest, liar.

    "Who is it exactly that can't distance themselves from the characters here?"

    You.

    "Expecting it to bring its ultimate weapon with it on its most important operation is expecting it to be omniscient or like a god? I'd say it's an entirely reasonable expectation. After it succeeds in assimilating the Protoss, it believes the Swarm will be perfect. This is the most crucial moment in the Zerg's history, and it's just not using it's most valuable tool?"

    Yes, let's leave these Dark Templar completely free on Char so that they can surprise attack us later (which still happened, but only through incredibly unlikely circumstance)

    You don't put all of your eggs into one basket and leave yourself open to the only foe that could ever hope to challenge you.

    "You argued that leaving Kerrigan behind was reasonable because it neutralised the Dark Templar. I'm pointing out that it didn't. I'm advocating that the Overmind bring Kerrigan with him."

    Which is silly, because up until said unlikely circumstance there were NO dark templar on Aiur, which became apparent when Fenix hilariously failed to kill the Baelrog Cerebrate.

    "Then put it in the story. Look at all the assumptions and intuitive inductions you expect me to make here,"

    This is hypocritical, you expect us to take your fanon seriously (especially regarding Kerrigan somehow not being responsible for anything ever) but when Turalyon comes to a reasonable conclusion about the Overmind (which can be argued through the beast's mannerisms and actions) you try to argue against it.

    be consistent.

    " I just want the story to be coherent."

    Is that right?

  3. #143

    Default Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by KaiseStratosTygo View Post
    "No, that's not the issue. For one thing, Kerrigan is not presented as morally correct throughout Heart of the Swarm. I can't even imagine how you would look at Lasarra wrecking Kerrigan's position and think that her defence of "Can't run, Mustn't run. Never again, never again" is the authours demonstrating her as being morally correct. Or her interactions with Warfield about how she's rendered the sacrifices of everyone who tried to save her meaningless by turning back to the Swarm? The problem is that the development was crappily executed, overreached its conclusion and didn't justify itself, not that the authours were blind to what Kerrigan was doing."

    She's presented as "different" and more "human" which is still a load of bull, I gess she's "different" in that she's now a real mass murderer like daddy Mengsk.

    The writers had Kerrigan try to use the "you've killed billion of zerg" remark (ignoring the fact that Protoss are indeed not a singular hive mind) to try to levy some equal guilt, which was hilarious and stupid, yet such a thing was called out by no-one and thus is portrayed straight, which is absurd.

    Your fanon excuses have no backing.
    Stratos, this is not the same kind of killing as Mengsk. Kerrigan's ORIGINAL goal with the swarm is merely to kill Mengsk, then walk away from the Zerg completely. She's not in it for personal gain. Yes we all know from the outside POV, this is virtually impossible to see the difference, but it proves she's not hellbent for conquest anymore. This was proven in the prologue, otherwise Kerrigan would have simply struck at Zeratul's base at that Moebius facility. Her rampaging days are done.

    The killing billions of Zerg is hypocritical, but it's merely to show that the Protoss are far from being pure and innocent.

    Stratos, you told me whiles back you studied military history before you were even in your teens. You know as well as I that in war, EVERYONE sins. You can't just say just because you won the war, therefore you never committed any crimes. Granted this may take a while before those crimes are finally discovered, but you can't hide it forever.

    This goes back to what we discussed on the battlenet forums about allied war crimes.

    Returning to HotS, and back to the hypocritical comment, what Kerrigan SHOULD have said was that the Protoss killing ONLY the Zerg was fine for their survival, but they killed plenty of other species on the planets that never wronged them.

  4. #144
    Gradius's Avatar SC:L Addict
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    Default Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Nissa View Post
    In any case, Gradius, I don't think there's any evidence of a UED/Morian alliance. Unless there's some alternate source (a novel?) which states this as the case, it seems out of nowhere. BW doesn't provide a shred of context for it. If you're referring to the fact that Mengsk was targeted by the UED while the Morians were left alone, there's no reason why that couldn't have been due to things like potential Dominion weakness, or they wanted Dominion tech. Or perhaps the Dominion was still the strongest of the three main K Sector governments, and that by getting the Dominion, they could make the others cow. I personally feel that it was Mengsk's arrogance and self-service that made the UED feel justified in destroying him first, given that they are a highly arrogant bunch who come into the sector and think they can solve all its problems.

    Long story short, where'd you get the idea?

    Also, I question your Japanese civilian metaphor. Terrans aren't Zerg civilians. In fact, it's more like a hostage situation. You've got a building full of both enemies and people who have nothing to do with the conflict in question. Is it really justified to bomb the building, without even trying to rescue the hostages?
    There's no formal alliance, no, but the UED is allowing them to operate whilst cracking down on the Dominion, and the Morians aren't working with Raynor/Fenix to help overthrow the UED.

    Sure, anytime innocent civilians die it's a tragedy. But it was easier for us to bomb Japanese cities and kill potential innocent civilians than send in soldiers to storm the cities and risk U.S. lives. The protoss have the same exact mentality during war, which a hostage negotiation metaphor doesn't quite cover.

    Japanese civilians didn't ask to be born in Japan. Likewise, nobody asked to live on a planet that the zerg infested. Their mere location condemns them to death. War is hell.

    Quote Originally Posted by DarthYam View Post
    Appeal to popularity fallacy. Those people largely grew up with Brood War so of course they're going to be biased.
    The only biased one here is you. The fanboy goggles need to come off. Go to the Mass Recall teamliquid thread. Plenty of people who played SC2 first and enjoyed SC1 more.

    You obviously have no clue what nostalgia even is. There are plenty of things from my childhood that sucked, and even if I have fond memories of, say, Dragonball Z, I'm not gonna go around defending its writing.

    Quote Originally Posted by DarthYam View Post
    Also you ignore that in the aftermath of Char most of the Zerg swarm was wiped out since they fought each other in deep space. The brood mothers just control the few lucky enough to survive. They're nowhere near as strong as they were at the start thanks to the infighting. In that case yes Kerrigan was weaker.
    Doesn't address the core point that destroying random shipyards & murdering innocent people is not a requirement for building up the swarm. You can build up the swarm on uninhabited planets and still sack Korhal. Even though what you should be doing is assassination since your beef is with one guy.


    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    Is there a point to this?

    Those were destroyed before the assault on Korhal.
    How can you not get it? Really? It's a single battle. Standing forces are all that matter in a battle that takes several hours tops. Industrial planets working on churning out Vikings are irrelevant.

    Dismantling the entire Dominion war machine is completely pointless when you're trying to kill one guy.

    No, I'm not doing your job for you. Argue your own position.
    Then answer the frigging question. Would you kill millions of people like Kerrigan did just to save yourself?

    Maybe those people shouldn't be fighting to eradicate the mad dictator's enemies.
    And there it is, you think those people deserved to die.

    How is he mad from the viewpoint of the average civilian? He seems to be doing a fine job running the empire and the media makes sure his image is top notch.

    Planets are not innocent, they're things.
    People live on planets. Nice blatant dodge.

    Mengsk and the Terran Dominion only ever screwed over one person? Is this a joke?
    The only thing that's a joke is your understanding of the HoTS campaign where Kerrigan makes it clear multiple times that she's only doing this for revenge. Obviously, she couldn't give two shits about the common man given that she sacks entire planets and has to be convinced into sparing civilians vs. the lives of her bloodthirsty bug monsters.

    Also, while Mengsk committed heinous acts of genocide to get into power, WoL has given us only token evidence that he's doing a bad job apart from that. The Dominion's unexplained recovery after the BW would indicate that he's actually the best man for the job.

    You have no evidence that Tassadar's repeated planetary genocides saved lives. But let's toss you a bone and pretend they did.
    You're the one accusing him of being evil, so the burden of proof is on you.

    In disobeying those orders on Tarsonis, Tassadar is responsible for the creation of Infested Kerrigan, and therefore all the crimes she did, plus all the atrocities committed by the Zerg when the infestation went uncontained, and for all the Protoss who died on Aiur. So you're still going nowhere.
    I'm not obligated to defend Tassadar. On the flip side if you think destroying all the zerg infested planets was evil, you have to admit that he changed for the better by sparing Tarsonis, so right back atcha.

    It's hilarious how you came into this debate assuming I give two shits about false analogies or am obligated to defend the entire SC cast. Accuse whoever you want of whatever you want. I'm not getting sidetracked by your pitiful attempts to shift the blame away from Kerrigan.

    To which he literally answers "Maybe, I don't know". Solid confirmation there.

    I don't remember it being worst than what Mengsk did on Tarsonis.
    What the hell does that have to do with Mengsk? Everyone who played SC1 agrees Mengsk is evil. We're discussing why Raynor/Fenix are fighting the UED, a faction that's been known to instigate genocidal purges. Next time you try switching goalposts be less obvious about it.

    Kerrigan "singlehandedly started the war" by ordering Mengsk's Dominion forces to attack her on a Umojan planet. Of course. Your lies grow ever more desperate.
    War: a state of usually open and declared armed hostile conflict between states or nations (2) : a period of such armed conflict

    Didn't know one person getting attacked is a "war", but I guess I learn something new every day!

    Another fun fact: Kerrigan in the previous game launched an unprovoked invasion of his planets. Who's desperate again?

    Yes. Do you understand what symbolism is?
    It's a god damn time lapse, just like we see in other parts of the game.

    Even if I allow you to cherry pick whatever scenes you want as "symbolic", what exactly is the symbolism behind an entire full of city lights being engulfed in creep by a bloodthirsty brood mother? That all the people on the planet died? Where was the symbolism of the civilian transports evacuating the planet?

    Can you provide evidence that what you claim happened is what happened?
    Translation: Please prove that the cinematic we watched in the game is what happened.

    Can we agree that you're delusional yet? -_-

    Fact checked Zergling, Baneling and Hydralisk evolution missions and the Ryloth Brood Mother conversation. I mean, it's possible that it just so happens that all the ones I verified were the ones you were inventing bullshit about, but that's not my problem. You should've stuck with things that were actually true.
    At no point did I mention anything in my summary that wasn't true.

    How should I know?
    Use five brain cells?

    Power failure?
    Yep, the planet is getting sacked by zerg, and the lights happen to go out because we forgot to pay the electric bill.

    How nice of the zerg to leave everything in tact while only knocking out the electricity pylons!

    Evacuation?
    Doesn't work the way you seem to think it does. Mar Sara SC1, Raynor had to rescue civilians from the zerg twice because they destroy shit way too fast. Agria, civilians didn't get out in time, Raiders had to help them. Kaldir, the most advanced race in the galaxy failed to get any people off planet. Korhal, they wouldn't have made it if Kerrigan was allowed to use her normal plan. Even with all the time Kerrigan gives them, they're still "behind" with the evacuations.

    Symbolism?
    Time lapse.

    Those things aren't city lights at all?
    Not city lights? So what the fuck are they? -_-

    You're the one making the assertion, you're the one who needs to support it. Once again, you're resorting to "well, since we don,t know what happened, whatever I want must be true!" And that's not how evidence works.
    You don't have a shred of a hint about how proper evidence works given that you haven't provided jack shit that refuted my battle.net post. You're very good at dismissing everything that doesn't agree with your preconceived notions of the game though, I'll give you that.

    So? Cities are off-limits? Again, Raynor and Fenix attacked cities. Tassadar destroyed a bunch of them.
    I guess those guys are evil assholes then. Along with General MacArthur in WW2. Except Tassadar is good because he came to his senses and stopped doing that on Tarsonis. Or was that the wrong decision too because according to you, "Tassadar is responsible for the creation of Infested Kerrigan, and therefore all the crimes she did, plus all the atrocities committed by the Zerg when the infestation went uncontained"

    Pick one. How astounding is the massive hypocrisy and flip-flopping of Tassadar haters.

    "Multiple explicit references". Right. That's exactly what I'm asking for. An explicit reference in the game of Kerrigan attacking civilians. Give it to me. 'Cause there are two actual explicit scenes of Kerrigan deciding to spare civilians, and one of her sparing wounded military personnel. So I'm expecting something at least as good. So far you've given me lights getting dimmed and Zerg fighting in a city. That's not in the same league at all.
    http://imageshack.us/a/img594/3796/cruxas3.jpg
    http://i.imgur.com/h3XlNLQ.jpg
    http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Jontur_II
    http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Mistaff_IV
    http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Kaldir
    Proof that civilians live in military industrial complexes in SC: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/game/lor...-performance/1

    Kerrigan was never going to spare civilians on Korhal and had to be talked into it. That's part of the game, sorry. Kerrigan butchered the soldiers on Char. If that's what you call being "saved" then I love how pathetically low your standards of evidence are. Except for all the links above that you will readily ignore.

    Planets are not people. \_(ツ)_/
    Cowardly dodge! \_(ツ)_/

    Not in the context you're arguing they're not. But it's obvious that double standards are entirely necessary to your argument. Kerrigan is one of only two characters to have ever made a deliberate effort to avoid civilian deaths among those she was attacking. Do the extra words help? Can you find other reasons to avoid the truth?
    The only reason that distinction is even a topic is because SC2 has the luxury of explaining what happened to the civilians on the planets being attacked, due to extra cinematics, dialog, art, etc, whereas SC1 does not. This isn't actually an advantage for you because you're frantically scrambling for nonexistant evidence that any of the "good guys" did anything truly wrong in SC1. It's also very unfortunate for your position that Kerrigan in SC2 is shown slaughtering an innocent protoss colony, ordering the destruction of multiple worlds which we get to see ruined apartment buildings & road systems ravaged by the zerg invasion, etc.

    He rebelled because of New Gettysburg, not The Big Push. That, apparently was enough for him to leave the Sons of Korhal. But unleashing the Zerg on Tarsonis was not. What did I expect? I expected him to do what he does one mission later.
    Ok. Fine. Raynor condoned the planetary genocide of Tarsonis. He was super stoked about it. For example:

    Jim Raynor
    First you sell out every person on this world to the Zerg, then you ask us to go up against the Protoss? And you're goin' to send Kerrigan down there with no backup?

    Arcturus Mengsk [Battlecruiser]
    I have absolute confidence in Kerrigan's ability to hold off the Protoss.

    Jim Raynor
    This is bullshit. Kerrigan, are you reading this?
    Sorry, I forgot mustering up actual evidence seems to sting you like water on a witch, but if Kerrigan argued half as much on behalf of the Korhal population, Valerian wouldn't have had to even ask her about it.

    Raynor - taking orders from Mengsk. Fought an entire campaign and wants to believe that he accomplished something of value by propping up a better government. Waits one mission before living a life on the run.
    Kerrigan - takes orders from nobody. Decides to get revenge against Mengsk from the get-go and goes about it in the most ruthless way possible with as many collateral deaths as possible. Doesn't consider assassination, or living a life on the run at all.

    So sure, even if I grant you that Raynor was an evil asshole for one mission, that changes absolutely nothing.

    Unleashing the Zerg on Terran planets is not evil if you've got some sort of psychological excuse? So you'll retract everything you said about Kerrigan in Heart of the Swarm if it happens that she was not in perfect psychological condition?
    Sure, just admit that Kerrigan is a mass-murdering psychopath and we'll be two peas in a pod.

    Bullshit. The Dominion attacked her first. Those were enemy soldiers engaged in war against her Zerg. They refused to leave even though they were invading her home. And yet she spared them.
    They attacked her because she had slaughtered billions of terrans in the last game, and that's all the zerg had ever done. Char was originally a terran colony btw; it is not her "home".

    Pretty damn accurate analogy. It's like if some cops tried to bring you to justice and then you raided their police station in retribution.

    I'm just expecting you to hold her to the same standards as legendary hero Tassadar or "lone good man" Jim Raynor.
    ....or I can keep smashing every false analogy you send my way.

    Again, I'm not obligated to defend the SC cast, but even so you can run this through your head before you bring up any more irrelevant characters in a futile attempt to defend Kerrigan's mass murder in HoTS:

    Not. The. Same. Fucking. Thing.

    So far, all you've demonstrated is that she destroyed some Dominion military resources. Everything I've brought is worse than that except the attack on Braxis, which is roughly on par except that the Protoss are not being attacked by the Dominion.

    So, 404, irrelevant Protoss stuff, Dominion shipyard and military production hub. What are you expecting to get by linking me those? Did you read them? The Mistaff link tells us two things about the planet before it was attacked: it is in the Koprulu Sector and it is a hub for Dominion military production. Jontur's is shorter but similar. This is exactly what I keep telling you they are.
    A hub for military production is an industrial complex. Industrial complexes are jam packed with civilians.

    Let me know if there's any more difficult concepts I can help with.

    Wait, wait wait. Or do you think that you can write any bullshit you like and it's true until proven otherwise? Because that's the opposite of the burden of proof. You claim that she was targeting civilians (above and beyond what other good characters have done). I disbelieve your claim. Prove it.
    She's not targeting civilians, but they're going to die anyway when a full-blown zerg invasion comes to your planet. I once assumed that was common sense.

  5. #145

    Default Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    Sure, just admit that Kerrigan is a mass-murdering psychopath and we'll be two peas in a pod.
    Done.

    EDIT: To clarify, I mean that I believe and state that Kerrigan is a mass-murdering psychopath.
    Zeratul: I have journeyed through the darkness between the most distant stars. I have beheld the births of negative-suns and borne witness to the entropy of entire realities...
    Aldaris: Did not! That doesn't even make sense!
    Zeratul: Shut up, I totally did!

  6. #146

    Default Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by KaiseStratosTygo View Post
    "Oh, that's the real reason, but I've provided the in-story reason as well. I've also provided a list of other missions that were created out of similarly flimsy pretexts."

    More like excuses and fanon as opposed to actual reasons.

    "No, that's not the issue. For one thing, Kerrigan is not presented as morally correct throughout Heart of the Swarm. I can't even imagine how you would look at Lasarra wrecking Kerrigan's position and think that her defence of "Can't run, Mustn't run. Never again, never again" is the authours demonstrating her as being morally correct. Or her interactions with Warfield about how she's rendered the sacrifices of everyone who tried to save her meaningless by turning back to the Swarm? The problem is that the development was crappily executed, overreached its conclusion and didn't justify itself, not that the authours were blind to what Kerrigan was doing."

    She's presented as "different" and more "human" which is still a load of bull, I gess she's "different" in that she's now a real mass murderer like daddy Mengsk.

    The writers had Kerrigan try to use the "you've killed billion of zerg" remark (ignoring the fact that Protoss are indeed not a singular hive mind) to try to levy some equal guilt, which was hilarious and stupid, yet such a thing was called out by no-one and thus is portrayed straight, which is absurd.

    Your fanon excuses have no backing.

    "But mostly, the issue I have is that this is completely out of line with what is considered permissible for other characters. Fenix and Raynor infesting Terran miners on Moria for convenience is something that has seemed wildly out of character to me for years, and it's a far cry beyond Gradius' standard of "there might be civilians in those Dominion military facilities!" Yet there is no three page rant about how Fenix is Evil and Morally Bankrupt. Why is that?"

    How is Fenix evil and morally bankrupt because he had no choice but assist Kerrigan to defeat people who sought to enslave them all? he wasn't in charge of this action and really had little to do with that part of it, that was Kerrigan and the Cerebrate's objective, the worst Fenix did was steal from the KMC.

    Stop trying to equate these things you dishonest, liar.

    "Who is it exactly that can't distance themselves from the characters here?"

    You.

    "Expecting it to bring its ultimate weapon with it on its most important operation is expecting it to be omniscient or like a god? I'd say it's an entirely reasonable expectation. After it succeeds in assimilating the Protoss, it believes the Swarm will be perfect. This is the most crucial moment in the Zerg's history, and it's just not using it's most valuable tool?"

    Yes, let's leave these Dark Templar completely free on Char so that they can surprise attack us later (which still happened, but only through incredibly unlikely circumstance)

    You don't put all of your eggs into one basket and leave yourself open to the only foe that could ever hope to challenge you.

    "You argued that leaving Kerrigan behind was reasonable because it neutralised the Dark Templar. I'm pointing out that it didn't. I'm advocating that the Overmind bring Kerrigan with him."

    Which is silly, because up until said unlikely circumstance there were NO dark templar on Aiur, which became apparent when Fenix hilariously failed to kill the Baelrog Cerebrate.

    "Then put it in the story. Look at all the assumptions and intuitive inductions you expect me to make here,"

    This is hypocritical, you expect us to take your fanon seriously (especially regarding Kerrigan somehow not being responsible for anything ever) but when Turalyon comes to a reasonable conclusion about the Overmind (which can be argued through the beast's mannerisms and actions) you try to argue against it.

    be consistent.

    " I just want the story to be coherent."

    Is that right?

    Except that even when the Dark Templar LEFT Char Kerrigan stayed behind. If the Overmind was aware they weren't on Char anymore than he was fucking stupid leaving Kerrigan behind and not having her get to Aiur.

    Also, Kerrigan attacking military shipyards to weaken Mengsk does make sense if she's in a weakened state. Same thing with the swarm. Mengsk is hiding behind the Dominion military and it might take a while to build up forces when Mengsk recovered.

  7. #147

    Default Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by DarthYam View Post
    Except that even when the Dark Templar LEFT Char Kerrigan stayed behind. If the Overmind was aware they weren't on Char anymore than he was fucking stupid leaving Kerrigan behind and not having her get to Aiur.

    Also, Kerrigan attacking military shipyards to weaken Mengsk does make sense if she's in a weakened state. Same thing with the swarm. Mengsk is hiding behind the Dominion military and it might take a while to build up forces when Mengsk recovered.
    Actually DarthYam, the reason behind the whole "building up forces" is exactly one of the points why the critics felt the industrial worlds weren't needed (though I don't agree).

    I do see grounds for that their thinking though:

    If you had read the Flashpoint book, almost the whole Dominion invasion force had been left in ruins at Char when WoL ended. That was half of the ENTIRE Dominion fleet, which was in shambles when Mengsk arrived with the other half of the Dominion fleet (at the beginning of the book). They too took serious losses at Char. Along with the losses they sustained over the course of the book, well let's just say by the end of Flashpoint, the Dominion fleet was VERY badly mauled.

    Yet from what we saw in HotS, it seemed that within like 2 weeks after Flashpoint ended, the beginning of HotS showed Mengsk had rebuilt the whole fleet right away. This shouldn't be possible on a terran scale, though Blizzard never really explained how much industrial capacity the Dominion had at the beginning of WoL.

    I didn't see it that way though. As explained by Lockwell at the beginning of WoL, Mengsk left the fleet to decay all those years for the sake to hunt down Raynor. This could mean if Mengsk actually HAD dead set on building up the fleet to fight swarm, the Dominion fleet could have been rebuilt quickly. Therefore, what you said makes sense why the industrial worlds had to be razed.

  8. #148

    Default Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    Oh, that's the real reason, but I've provided the in-story reason as well. I've also provided a list of other missions that were created out of similarly flimsy pretexts.
    I know that the reason boils down to "the author intended it that way" and that you can really boil the reason for all action featured in a fictional story/game down to it being a flimsy pretext. The point I was making that if a character's motivation isn't given the proper illusion that this was their only reasoned choice, then an audience can only surmise that it must be contrived. Obviously, this is bad if you're trying to build the investment of an audience member into its story and characters.

    Oh and I must have missed the in-story reason you gave. Hard to find with all the massive posts and all...

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    No, that's not the issue. For one thing, Kerrigan is not presented as morally correct throughout Heart of the Swarm.
    And yet some people (not you, me or any other reasonable person though) will continue to uphold Kerrigan's actions in HoTS as being morally justified.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    The problem is that the development was crappily executed, overreached its conclusion and didn't justify itself, not that the authours were blind to what Kerrigan was doing.
    The crappy execution, overreaching conclusions, lack of adequate justification and mixed messages would seem to indicate that the authors are blind to what they wanted to do with Kerrigan.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    But mostly, the issue I have is that this is completely out of line with what is considered permissible for other characters. Fenix and Raynor infesting Terran miners on Moria for convenience is something that has seemed wildly out of character to me for years, and it's a far cry beyond Gradius' standard of "there might be civilians in those Dominion military facilities!" Yet there is no three page rant about how Fenix is Evil and Morally Bankrupt. Why is that?
    Good point. I've never thought of Raynor as a morally good guy beyond reproach anyway given he esssentially condones Mengsk's multiple atrocities with the Psi Emitters by remaining to side with him up until the end of Rebel Yell. As to Fenix being evil, sure, why not? I wouldn't harp on it that much though since he's a minor character and all. I kinda like the fact that there's no such thing as a completely morally good guy in Sc.

    Either way, Grad does have a point in that he's only talking specifically about Kerrigan. Sure, it's potentially hypocritical to not consider that the same can be said for other characters in Sc but it's beside the point he's making. It's a important distinction to make for sure, but in this particular case, it's a strawman arguement.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    Well, he's a Confederate official come to pacify Confederate assets. It would seem much more reasonable to me to assume that he's there to make sure the panic doesn't cause the Confederacy trouble.
    The prologue kinda hints at what role a magistrate plays: "Acting as Magistrate, you are to safeguard the colonists and keep their panic from escalating any further". Says nothing about how they're supposed to make life easier for Confederates, so I don't know where you drew that inference from. Sure, I'm assuming things too but mine doesn't need to stretch as much.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    No, as I've pointed out this is completely consistent with what has been repeated throughout the main storyline of Wings of Liberty, including by Raynor himself.
    What's consistent? That Mengsk is really good at reading people or that he's a master propagandist? I'm not convinced of either based on WoL alone.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    "The seeds of a new empire have been sown, and if we hope to reap..." is just using flowery language to say "keep working".
    I know and I agree that it's rhetoric, but if one is inclined to take an alternate perspective that Mengsk is utilitarian, that quote doesn't completely nullify that notion.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    Expecting it to bring its ultimate weapon with it on its most important operation is expecting it to be omniscient or like a god?
    No, expecting that the Overmind would've completely won had it brought Kerrigan to Aiur and that it being stupid because it didn't is akin to expecting the Overmind to being omniscient or being an actual god.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    This is the most crucial moment in the Zerg's history, and it's just not using it's most valuable tool?
    It was using it's most valuable tool, you're just not understanding how or refusing to accept it because you have an idealised vision of what you think the Overmind should've done.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    You argued that leaving Kerrigan behind was reasonable because it neutralised the Dark Templar. I'm pointing out that it didn't. I'm advocating that the Overmind bring Kerrigan with him.
    You haven't really pointed out it why it was not reasonable to neutralise Dark Templar.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    Then put it in the story. Look at all the assumptions and intuitive inductions you expect me to make here
    I hope you're not admitting that you need to be spoonfed every single detail and that audience members should never intuit some things for themselves. I'm not asking you to make any of these assumptions, just showing how it's so easy to think of an out. I can think of more offhandedly but that's not the point.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    meanwhile you have difficulty accepting that Mengsk was correct about Raynor blaming himself for everything Kerrigan's done, despite it being explicitly stated in the game multiple times.
    I never denied this. I just denied that Mengsk was always good at reading people.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    If this had happened in StarCraft II instead of the original game, you'd be up in arms about it. This was the entire justification for the Overmind's invasion of Terran space, and it never gets mentioned?
    What do you mean it's not mentioned? There's an explanation after Eye for an Eye in which it says Kerrigan was "left behind to hunt down and eradicate the remaining Protoss warriors". I don't know why you'd think Kerrigan wasn't doing anything to help nor why you think she not fulfilling her role as a valuable tool. There's nothing that explicitly says the Overmind must bring Kerrigan in it's invasion of Aiur.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    I just want the story to be coherent.
    It is. Whether you like it or not, the fact remains that the Overmind is using Kerrigan. It's not my fault that what the Overmind did regarding Kerrigan doesn't meet your expectation.
    Last edited by Turalyon; 11-26-2015 at 08:19 AM.
    Yes, that's right! That is indeed ME on the right.


    _______________________________________________

  9. #149

    Default Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    I know that the reason boils down to "the author intended it that way" and that you can really boil the reason for all action featured in a fictional story/game down to it being a flimsy pretext. The point I was making that if a character's motivation isn't given the proper illusion that this was their only reasoned choice, then an audience can only surmise that it must be contrived. Obviously, this is bad if you're trying to build the investment of an audience member into its story and characters.
    I mean, I want to say that's true, but fans are clearly willing to go a certain distance to justify the actions of their characters. If you'll allow me to combine some of your post in the same reply, in the Overmind bit we're discussing lower down the explanation makes sense, but it's entirely fan-made. The story didn't give the proper illusion that it was the only reasoned choice, but we're still willing to find an explanation for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    Oh and I must have missed the in-story reason you gave. Hard to find with all the massive posts and all...
    No problem. Basically, when Mengsk attacked the Umojan labs to get Kerrigan, Mengsk was in control of the full military might of an interstellar empire (Except for all the fleets he gave to Moebis Corps apparently, but that's not part of Heart of the Swarm, so I hope you'll do me the favour of ignoring that silliness when considering the narrative of the game) and Kerrigan had nothing. Throughout the game, Kerrigan is preparing for the final confrontation by in one part making herself stronger (Gathering the Zerg from Char and Kaldir, getting reinfested on Zerus) and making her enemy weaker (destroying his military production in the evolution missions and cutscenes, destroying his Hybrid on Skygeirr). If those troops had not been destroyed previously, she would have had to fight them on Korhal anyway, and whatever further aseets they managed to produce.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    The crappy execution, overreaching conclusions, lack of adequate justification and mixed messages would seem to indicate that the authors are blind to what they wanted to do with Kerrigan.
    I think they were just afraid that portraying it adequately would make it difficult for the audience to sympathise with her, so they still half-arsed. It's similar to how they shoehorned the Prophecy arc into Wings of Liberty because they didn't trust the audience to understand Raynor's journey. And instead, it just helps those people, since now they think he only did it because a prophecy told him to. But ultimately, why the writers messed up isn't that important. The end result is still garbage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    Good point. I've never thought of Raynor as a morally good guy beyond reproach anyway given he esssentially condones Mengsk's multiple atrocities with the Psi Emitters by remaining to side with him up until the end of Rebel Yell. As to Fenix being evil, sure, why not? I wouldn't harp on it that much though since he's a minor character and all. I kinda like the fact that there's no such thing as a completely morally good guy in Sc.

    Either way, Grad does have a point in that he's only talking specifically about Kerrigan. Sure, it's potentially hypocritical to not consider that the same can be said for other characters in Sc but it's beside the point he's making. It's a important distinction to make for sure, but in this particular case, it's a strawman arguement.
    Not at all. His argument was that Kerrigan is evil and morally bankrupt. Since philosophers have been debating on morality for ages, establishing his standard for it through other examples is completely valid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    The prologue kinda hints at what role a magistrate plays: "Acting as Magistrate, you are to safeguard the colonists and keep their panic from escalating any further". Says nothing about how they're supposed to make life easier for Confederates, so I don't know where you drew that inference from. Sure, I'm assuming things too but mine doesn't need to stretch as much.
    I'm not assuming that the notion I suggested is correct. I'm just giving an example of something else it could be. I mean, if police or even military (and apparently the Magistrate has military authority?) were sent to prevent a riot from escalating further, you wouldn't necessarily believe that their first concern is the welfare of the rioters. Like I said, I've been wondering about the Magistrate. This guy gets an entire Confederate planet, and apparently still has pretty much no influence with the Confederacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    What's consistent? That Mengsk is really good at reading people or that he's a master propagandist? I'm not convinced of either based on WoL alone.
    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    I never denied this. I just denied that Mengsk was always good at reading people.
    My mistake, I misunderstood your position.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    I know and I agree that it's rhetoric, but if one is inclined to take an alternate perspective that Mengsk is utilitarian, that quote doesn't completely nullify that notion.
    No, and I don't think I've got anything to argue against that beyond throwing away the anti-Protoss strike force. Even if I could, who am I to deny someone their alternative perspective on the games? I'm making my own headcanon sequel to StarCraft .

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    No, expecting that the Overmind would've completely won had it brought Kerrigan to Aiur and that it being stupid because it didn't is akin to expecting the Overmind to being omniscient or being an actual god.

    It was using it's most valuable tool, you're just not understanding how or refusing to accept it because you have an idealised vision of what you think the Overmind should've done.

    You haven't really pointed out it why it was not reasonable to neutralise Dark Templar.

    What do you mean it's not mentioned? There's an explanation after Eye for an Eye in which it says Kerrigan was "left behind to hunt down and eradicate the remaining Protoss warriors". I don't know why you'd think Kerrigan wasn't doing anything to help nor why you think she not fulfilling her role as a valuable tool. There's nothing that explicitly says the Overmind must bring Kerrigan in it's invasion of Aiur.
    Now you're the one misunderstanding my position. I never said Kerrigan wasn't doing anything, and I never said that the Overmind would have won if it took her with it. And while I did point out that there were other Dark Templar so leaving her on Char hardly neutralised them, that's still not the point. My point was that the Overmind went to the Terran worlds out of a desperate need for something that would counter the Protoss' psionics and ability to bend space and warp reality. The Aiur Protoss still have this, Dark Templar entirely inconsequential. Kerrigan was supposed to be the solution, but isn't used. And yet this is never brought up in any way.
    Zeratul: I have journeyed through the darkness between the most distant stars. I have beheld the births of negative-suns and borne witness to the entropy of entire realities...
    Aldaris: Did not! That doesn't even make sense!
    Zeratul: Shut up, I totally did!

  10. #150

    Default Re: [Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by DarthYam View Post
    Except that even when the Dark Templar LEFT Char Kerrigan stayed behind. If the Overmind was aware they weren't on Char anymore than he was fucking stupid leaving Kerrigan behind and not having her get to Aiur.

    Also, Kerrigan attacking military shipyards to weaken Mengsk does make sense if she's in a weakened state. Same thing with the swarm. Mengsk is hiding behind the Dominion military and it might take a while to build up forces when Mengsk recovered.
    Why would she go after them at that point? it was incriedbily unlikely circumstance that led them off the planet, I imagine she assumed she should stay planetside instead of chasing them around the sector

    Getting her to Aiur was unnecessary just putting every egg in one basket for no real reason, she wouldn't have stopped them anyway by just being on Aiur, due to the nature of the DT's attacks and the ongoing battle against the Conclave.

    Trying to fight a war of attrition against Terrans as Zerg is by far the least logical strategy, you will ALWAYS overpower them with numbers, all she has to do is built up her forces on Phaeton and strike when ready, Mengsk isn't going anywhere.

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