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Thread: So what if Kerrigan doesn't survive LotV?

  1. #21

    Default Re: So what if Kerrigan doesn't survive LotV?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nissa View Post
    I'm not familiar with it.
    See here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nissa View Post
    That's not the point.
    I'm not really sure what point your exactly making but all I'm saying is that Kerrigan's choice of targets is seemingly more indiscriminate in contrast to the Overmind's choice of targets on an objective level.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nissa View Post
    Besides, the Zerg have always been a race of peons. They're going to be controlled by somebody, natural Zerg or otherwise.
    If that's true, then Kerrigan is nothing but a big peon herself. Either way, I feel that this is a big misconception about the Zerg that's been fostered since Kerrigan took control of them in BW - it's part of the thing I said previously that irked me about this ongoing direction of the Zerg.

    In their initially conceived state, the Zerg are not controlled by a leader (ie: Overmind) because there is no leader in a collective hive-mind per se. The Overmind character is merely a simplification to describe the gestalt of all the drives of each individual Zerg - the instinct to survive, self-preserve, grow, expand at all costs but writ large as a whole. The concept being that the Zerg and the hivemind are so intertwined such that one part can't be wholly removed without the other part being wholly removed also - "the Overmind/the hivemind" and "the Zerg" should be considered synonymous.
    Last edited by Turalyon; 10-03-2015 at 11:43 PM.
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  2. #22

    Default Re: So what if Kerrigan doesn't survive LotV?

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    I'm not really sure what point your exactly making but all I'm saying is that Kerrigan's choice of targets is seemingly more indiscriminate in contrast to the Overmind's choice of targets on an objective level.
    I'm saying the exact opposite of this. Kerrigan is not indiscriminate, seemingly or otherwise. She makes the exact choices of targets as an insecure human with too much power would. Everybody's a target to the Overmind.



    If that's true, then Kerrigan is nothing but a big peon herself. Either way, I feel that this is a big misconception about the Zerg that's been fostered since Kerrigan took control of them in BW - it's part of the thing I said previously that irked me about this ongoing direction of the Zerg.

    In their initially conceived state, the Zerg are not controlled by a leader (ie: Overmind) because there is no leader in a collective hive-mind per se. The Overmind character is merely a simplification to describe the gestalt of all the drives of each individual Zerg - the instinct to survive, self-preserve, grow, expand at all costs but writ large as a whole. The concept being that the Zerg and the hivemind are so intertwined such that one part can't be wholly removed without the other part being wholly removed also - "the Overmind/the hivemind" and "the Zerg" should be considered synonymous.
    Kerri isn't a peon. She's "special" because "the greatness of her spirit has been left to her." She's capable of making her own decisions, whereas a zergling is directionless without a stronger mind controlling it. That's what I mean by "peon" -- a minion incapable of unified, clear action in the absence of a greater mind guiding it (overmind, cerebrate, Kerri, whoever). The Zerg have always been that way. They aren't the pre-Borg queen Borg.
    "Seeing Fenix once more perplexes me. I feel sadness, when I should feel joy."
    - Artanis.

  3. #23

    Default Re: So what if Kerrigan doesn't survive LotV?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nissa View Post
    Kerrigan is not indiscriminate, seemingly or otherwise. She makes the exact choices of targets as an insecure human with too much power would. Everybody's a target to the Overmind.
    Oh, but she is indiscriminate and we can make that judgement of her objectively speaking. Her actions speak for themselve eg: she goes from sparing Mengsk to then killing him for the exact same reason (that he tried to kill her) and kills a plethora of people/aliens that are unrelated to her purported main goal of killing just one man. She then goes out of her way not to kill some other people later only because she was called out on being evil - when she couldn't even govern/censor herself to do the same thing with those other Terran worlds she casually overran before when expediency was her excuse - why not use this excuse in the last instance on Korhal? She's wishy-washy/indiscriminate, that's what! Part of being not indiscriminate is that she needs to show some sense of considered judgement and planning in her decisions/actions. There is none to be had to explain those actions I mentioned. It's that or she is indeed carefully planning those actions (which is arbitrary since there's no realy way we can tell) which would be fine as long as she is also labelled as being pure evil without question (yeah, some people think she can still be defined as morally good.... go figure).

    The Zerg are very discriminating - they only attack the Terrans to get at their psionics and once they did, they left Terran space altogether. This backs up their ethos of targeting only species that would seek to improve them. Everybody is only a target insofar as there being something the Overmind wants out of them or if they're a direct threat to them (naturally). Therefore, the Zerg are not indiscriminate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nissa View Post
    Kerri isn't a peon. She's "special" because "the greatness of her spirit has been left to her." She's capable of making her own decisions, whereas a zergling is directionless without a stronger mind controlling it. That's what I mean by "peon" -- a minion incapable of unified, clear action in the absence of a greater mind guiding it (overmind, cerebrate, Kerri, whoever). The Zerg have always been that way. They aren't the pre-Borg queen Borg.
    If Kerrigan is a Zerg then she is, by your logic, a peon as well. Kerri seems to know this since she fears being under the control of the hivemind again which, if you regard Zerg as being peons, makes her just another potential peon but with a longer leash... still a peon. Note that this "specialness" is based on the condition that no Zerg can stray from the Overmind's will.

    If Kerrigan is not a Zerg, than what the hell is she still doing there controlling them (assuming she survives LotV and continues leading the Swarm)? If they're so a terrible and evil, why not just move them all into the nearest star and be done with them? There is no need for them to exist on a practical level and pose more danger than what they're worth since they can be usurped by anyone with power greater than Kerrigan (which in this universe, could be any invention the writers decide to cook up later).

    Besides, a Zergling without the hivemind just act like a normal animal. It's only "mindless/directionless" in comparision to human sapience and unified action in numbers. They still have their instinctual need to survive, self-preserve, grow and expand, (it's the same cornerstone of the Overmind/Hiveminds motivations) just not on a "larger" (more than one individual) level. We don't call animals or pets without owners/"greater directing minds" peons, do we?
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  4. #24
    DonnyZeDoof's Avatar Junior Member
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    Default Re: So what if Kerrigan doesn't survive LotV?

    Even if Kerrigan dies, shes going to respawn.

  5. #25

    Default Re: So what if Kerrigan doesn't survive LotV?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nissa View Post
    I'm saying the exact opposite of this. Kerrigan is not indiscriminate, seemingly or otherwise. She makes the exact choices of targets as an insecure human with too much power would. Everybody's a target to the Overmind.
    That's hard to say given her actions in HotS in killing millions just for the sake to get to Mengsk. Granted it's not like the Dominion military would have stepped aside anyway, but still.

    With regards to specifically targeting, that's harder to say. If Amon's threat never existed, she might have done just that in the aftermath of the BW.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    Oh, but she is indiscriminate and we can make that judgement of her objectively speaking. Her actions speak for themselve eg: she goes from sparing Mengsk to then killing him for the exact same reason (that he tried to kill her) and kills a plethora of people/aliens that are unrelated to her purported main goal of killing just one man. She then goes out of her way not to kill some other people later only because she was called out on being evil - when she couldn't even govern/censor herself to do the same thing with those other Terran worlds she casually overran before when expediency was her excuse - why not use this excuse in the last instance on Korhal? She's wishy-washy/indiscriminate, that's what! Part of being not indiscriminate is that she needs to show some sense of considered judgement and planning in her decisions/actions. There is none to be had to explain those actions I mentioned. It's that or she is indeed carefully planning those actions (which is arbitrary since there's no realy way we can tell) which would be fine as long as she is also labelled as being pure evil without question (yeah, some people think she can still be defined as morally good.... go figure).
    For the whole excuse of why she didn't do this prior to Korhal, let's just say this required Raynor's reaction to her on the Moros. Only THEN did she finally begin to see she had gone too far. That's her main problem: without Raynor around, she doesn't understand restraint.

  6. #26

    Default Re: So what if Kerrigan doesn't survive LotV?

    Quote Originally Posted by ragnarok View Post
    For the whole excuse of why she didn't do this prior to Korhal, let's just say this required Raynor's reaction to her on the Moros. Only THEN did she finally begin to see she had gone too far. That's her main problem: without Raynor around, she doesn't understand restraint.
    That's a terrible development of Kerrigan's characterisation, especially in light of BW, when all her actions there were wholesale discriminate and Kerrigan owned her decisions no matter what others thought of her. At worst, this position can be terribly sexist as there's implications of a real woman (because Kerrigan was apparently not in BW) not being able to be "good" without intervention from a man. Yeeesh! I'm staying away from that one!!!!!
    Yes, that's right! That is indeed ME on the right.


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  7. #27

    Default Re: So what if Kerrigan doesn't survive LotV?

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    That's a terrible development of Kerrigan's characterisation, especially in light of BW, when all her actions there were wholesale discriminate and Kerrigan owned her decisions no matter what others thought of her. At worst, this position can be terribly sexist as there's implications of a real woman (because Kerrigan was apparently not in BW) not being able to be "good" without intervention from a man. Yeeesh! I'm staying away from that one!!!!!
    Well, even if she DID understand restraint, her arrogance factor still remains.

    All you have to do is look at the LotV prologue.

    Granted she did not attack Zeratul's base, but she threatened him to stay out of her way. Some had argued that she refused to help him save his people because they could be used for hybrids.

    However, assuming that really WAS her reasoning, this would still imply self-righteousness:

    Essentially what Kerrigan is saying is that only SHE knows what the right thing to do is, whereas all the Protoss are just too damn stupid to do anything.

  8. #28

    Default Re: So what if Kerrigan doesn't survive LotV?

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    That's a terrible development of Kerrigan's characterisation, especially in light of BW, when all her actions there were wholesale discriminate and Kerrigan owned her decisions no matter what others thought of her. At worst, this position can be terribly sexist as there's implications of a real woman (because Kerrigan was apparently not in BW) not being able to be "good" without intervention from a man. Yeeesh! I'm staying away from that one!!!!!
    There's nothing sexist about being rescued by a man. However, Kerrigan owning her decisions was always the more interesting take.
    "Seeing Fenix once more perplexes me. I feel sadness, when I should feel joy."
    - Artanis.

  9. #29

    Default Re: So what if Kerrigan doesn't survive LotV?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nissa View Post
    There's nothing sexist about being rescued by a man. However, Kerrigan owning her decisions was always the more interesting take.
    Except Kerrigan took Raynor for granted for way too long. Only during the cold reception on the Moros did she begin to understand that.

  10. #30

    Default Re: So what if Kerrigan doesn't survive LotV?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nissa View Post
    There's nothing sexist about being rescued by a man.
    Didn't say it was. I said it had the potential for some unfortunate implications, that's all. Besides, who said anything about being rescued? It's not that Kerrigan actually needed "rescuing" anyways - that was Raynor's delusion.
    Last edited by Turalyon; 10-15-2015 at 07:46 AM.
    Yes, that's right! That is indeed ME on the right.


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