Valerian in LoTV

[Shadow Archon]

Isn't the Shadow Corp just another Terran faction who worked on the Hybrids?

You have the Mercenary forces from Dark Origins, or the Dominion forces from the Castanar mission and those on Skygeirr.

Given how Duran was gloating about how many were out there, you're bound to have more. Hell, maybe he even conned Umoja and Moria to work on their own Hybrid programs while wearing a different face.

There's no reason for them to be religious fanatics like the Tal'Darim.

The fact that the Hybrid Maar mind controlled the Daelaam Protoss on the Preserver planet in WoL, you could just have recently released Hybrids from one of the many staging areas using them as puppets.

[Turalyon]

I'm still not sure if Valerian giving Kerrigan permission to attack the Dominion was a wise choice or even if Kerrigan's entire campaign against the Dominion in HOTS was even worthwhile. I mean Kerrigan dealt some severe blows to the Dominion's military. That weakened it but since Amon is coming the factions in the Koprulu Sector need all the help they can get. It's too bad we probably won't see any consequence for this in LoTV

Hoo boy. There are so many ways I could respond to this... where to start? I could talk about how none of the characters in Sc2 show any shred of wisdom for any of their decisions or I could talk about how "worthwhile" (read: inane) Raynor's and Kerrigan's victories are in Sc2 in relation to the Hybrid plot or I could talk about how meaningless "severe blows" turn out to be in Sc2 now or I could talk about how there's no real tension in the story whatsoever when unlooked for plot gimmicks come out of nowhere to neatly fix whatever contrived problem appears in the universe of Sc now.

Well, there was no reason why Blizzard couldn't have created some sort of political opposition for Mengsk during WoL

Does laziness and an unhealthy fixation on Raynor count as reasons?

It depends on the nature of the opposition, as well as Zerg/Protoss/Umojan/Morian activity. Think about the Soviet Union. Despite having a horrid economic model, opposition from other nations, and weak and/or assassinated leadership since Stalin's death at 1953, they still managed to stay a nation until 1991. If a nation can linger like that for forty years, then surely the Dominion can survive some degree of leadership issues. Particularly since they have better technology, multi-planet resources, redneck survival sentiments, and probably a better economic model.

But the Soviet Union was never gutted by a Zerg invasion. Besides, the Dominion was only like 5 years old compared to the Confederacy lasting 150 years (with more diffuse leaderhip) and yet the latter blew away like a fart in the wind when the Zerg descended on them. What makes the Dominion much more special/resistant when encountering a similar fate, especially when the Dominion was just a vehicle for Mengsk's ego more than anything else and with it's underlying linchpin gone now?

After all, technically it's been around only five years, and constant government change makes people weary. This weariness would outweigh any PR benefits.

It's not the fault of the Terran people that their Government keeps changing. It was Mengsk's fault for destroying the previous government and (although inadvertently) planting of the seed that led to the eventual destruction of his own government. This is not even factoring his general incompetence at leadership during BW with the UED. All of this has been brought to light to the public now - they'd be itching to support any other government that would not be the Dominion. Five years is plenty of time for any existing Government to show their worth and the Dominion has brought nothing but even more distrust in the government due to Mengsk's actions bringing the Terran situation in the K-sector to near total ruin three times in that five-year span.

It's a good thing the Tal'darim turned out to be baddies, or Jimmy boy would be a murderer for hire.

The Tal'Darim are designated baddies. From an impartial view, Raynor is really going out robbing these people (they did nothing to him - Raynor sought them out first) of items that hold religious significance to them and then has the gall of calling them unreasonable when they justifiably resist. That these people happen to be non-descript fanatics is not really a justification to start killing them.

Isn't the Shadow Corp just another Terran faction who worked on the Hybrids?

I know that. The problem is that this reason is really just as incidental and inconsequential as the Tal'Darim being "designated baddies we have to fight" because their fanatics.

[Shadow Archon]

I know that. The problem is that this reason is really just as incidental and inconsequential as the Tal'Darim being "designated baddies we have to fight" because their fanatics.

Well, unlike the Tal'Darim, the Shadow Corp is pro-actively attacking Korhal.

The Tal'Darim are designated baddies. From an impartial view, Raynor is really going out robbing these people (they did nothing to him - Raynor sought them out first) of items that hold religious significance to them and then has the gall of calling them unreasonable when they justifiably resist.

Raynor doesn't call them unreasonable.

He doesn't argue what he's doing is morally justified.

He's doing it because he needs cash to pay for his war effort.

The fact that the Tal'Darim are not the Daelaam makes it easier for him.

That these people happen to be non-descript fanatics is not really a justification to start killing them.

Well, Raynor doesn't start killing them. He starts with the goal of stealing from them.

When they fight back with lethal force, Raynor retaliates back with lethal force.

Sure, that's still not a moral action, but he didn't go out of his way to kill them. He was fine just stealing the gas and leaving immediately. So, still immoral, but not as immoral as you are implying.

Raynor and Tychus were both notorious thieves in the past, and are not pillars of morality.

[Nissa]

Does laziness and an unhealthy fixation on Raynor count as reasons?

Nope! Well, technically yes, but according to good writing, no.

But the Soviet Union was never gutted by a Zerg invasion. Besides, the Dominion was only like 5 years old compared to the Confederacy lasting 150 years (with more diffuse leaderhip) and yet the latter blew away like a fart in the wind when the Zerg descended on them. What makes the Dominion much more special/resistant when encountering a similar fate, especially when the Dominion was just a vehicle for Mengsk's ego more than anything else and with it's underlying linchpin gone now?

Trick is, we have no way of equating how much damage either the Confederacy or the Terran Dominion suffered from the Zerg. For the Confederacy, much of their destruction was off screen. Given that it's canon that Tassadar interacted somehow with Raynor and Kerrigan during the Terran missions and yet never shown, it's entirely possible that more destruction than what we are given happened, and not all of it done by the Zerg. Another example is Raynor's line where he mentions saving Kerrigan many times. He never did that on screen, but it's implied to have happened. Starcraft and Brood War had lots of natural gaps in storytelling because of the format of the games, so we can assume that a lot more happened to the Confederacy than we saw.

As for the Dominion, Kerrigan allowed it to recover from BW, and it survived into HotS. In HotS, Kerrigan primarily confined her efforts onto Korhal rather than side worlds. If she was willing to avoid civilian casualties on Korhal, it's likely she would have avoided other Dominion worlds besides Korhal, given HotS is her emo quest against Mengsk specifically.

It's not the fault of the Terran people that their Government keeps changing. It was Mengsk's fault for destroying the previous government and (although inadvertently) planting of the seed that led to the eventual destruction of his own government. This is not even factoring his general incompetence at leadership during BW with the UED. All of this has been brought to light to the public now - they'd be itching to support any other government that would not be the Dominion. Five years is plenty of time for any existing Government to show their worth and the Dominion has brought nothing but even more distrust in the government due to Mengsk's actions bringing the Terran situation in the K-sector to near total ruin three times in that five-year span.

Well, it's not really the point that Mengsk brought about the change. The Dominion was supposed to be a new hope for the former Confederate worlds, and a lot of blame for Mengsk's troubles can go on the UED, the Zerg, the Protoss, and generally other people besides the Dominion. It's all a matter of how it's spun, and depends on how specific opposition chooses to deal with the matter.

Keep in mind, though, I'm not necessarily saying it should stay the Dominion, only that it can and most likely will have that label. The death of Mengsk will lead to huge policy change even if Valerian takes the reins, but changing the name of the entity will have political repercussions. People will assume the new government with a new label is just another fly-by-night personality cult, just like the Terran Dominion was with Mengsk. This will lead to disunity and weakness in the face of alien/other faction opposition.

The Tal'Darim are designated baddies. From an impartial view, Raynor is really going out robbing these people (they did nothing to him - Raynor sought them out first) of items that hold religious significance to them and then has the gall of calling them unreasonable when they justifiably resist. That these people happen to be non-descript fanatics is not really a justification to start killing them.

Trust me, I know. This one dude on the internet kept trying to convince me I was wrong for calling Raynor a guy who kills for money. The Tal'darim are on my top ten list of things that piss me off about Starcraft 2. There couldn't be a more shallow, trope-y, and insulting faction.

[Turalyon]

Raynor doesn't call them unreasonable.

I was paraphrasing but here's what the man himself says:

"Oh hell, not these Tal'darim guys again. They seriously need to learn when to quit." -Raynor-

So, why should they quit again, Raynor? To serve your needs? So you can stop killing them? To just be "ok about giving up their possessions which also happen to hold a strong religious significance to them? Yeah, he's not calling them unreasonable at all.

Well, Raynor doesn't start killing them. He starts with the goal of stealing from them.

When they fight back with lethal force, Raynor retaliates back with lethal force.

Sure, that's still not a moral action, but he didn't go out of his way to kill them. He was fine just stealing the gas and leaving immediately. So, still immoral, but not as immoral as you are implying.

Raynor and Tychus were both notorious thieves in the past, and are not pillars of morality.

Not talking about degrees of immorality here, just talking about immorality in general/on base observation which I am very glad that you have noticed. There are others who would claim otherwise - that Raynor was morally justified in his actions against the Tal'Darim.

Still, if you want to get mired in the morass of degrees of immorality, one has to consider that Raynor would have had to realise that what he was attempting to steal would be overtly protected by these "fanatics" in the beginning and that it wouldn't just be easy as sneaky in and picking them up.

Trick is, we have no way of equating how much damage either the Confederacy or the Terran Dominion suffered from the Zerg. For the Confederacy, much of their destruction was off screen.

Yes, we do. Don't hide in minutaie and evasions. The Confederacy disappeared after Mengsk's action of leading the Zerg to their main planet, which implies that even if any remaining leaders remained, they were unable to restore the "Confederacy" government. The 3rd Zerg mission The New Dominion in Sc1 cements the fact that Mengsk is in control and that the Tarsonis invasion totally destroyed the Confederacy as a government. This should be surprising to you given that the Confederates have been established for a very long time and should have deep roots in order to keep going (as your post-Stalin Communist Russia analogy suggests).

As for the Dominion, Kerrigan allowed it to recover from BW, and it survived into HotS. In HotS, Kerrigan primarily confined her efforts onto Korhal rather than side worlds. If she was willing to avoid civilian casualties on Korhal, it's likely she would have avoided other Dominion worlds besides Korhal, given HotS is her emo quest against Mengsk specifically.

The Dominion's survivability after BW has been a point of contention in discussions elsewhere, so I won't go over that again. Even given that conceit, the damage done by the Zerg in HotS has to be considered in light of it being cumulative in effect from what went on before (although it's been retconned, Mengsk's Dominion originally only consisted of 4 of 13 worlds at the time of it's initiation). Also, Kerrigan did not confine her efforts on Korhal as she blithely allowed her Brood Mothers to destroy other supposedly important military assets/worlds on her way to Korhal whereas the SoK's efforts were specifically more surgical in comparison.

That she avoided civilians is moot in the discussion of a governments removal caused by Zerg invasion. Most of Mengsk's advisors (and the potential future leaders of the Dominion in the advent of Mengsk's death) would be with him in his palace... and we know how that went down. Also, given the nature of an Empire having such a centralised form of government, having his homeworld destroyed (not to mention the "genius" behind it all, Mengsk himself being killed) would've done more damage to that form of government than it would have compared to the slightly more diffuse leadership that the Confeds had. So... if the Confeds were so easily wiped out, I fail to see how the Dominion can not when taking all of these factors into account.

Well, it's not really the point that Mengsk brought about the change. The Dominion was supposed to be a new hope for the former Confederate worlds, and a lot of blame for Mengsk's troubles can go on the UED, the Zerg, the Protoss, and generally other people besides the Dominion. It's all a matter of how it's spun, and depends on how specific opposition chooses to deal with the matter.

Oh, but it is. We only have Mengsk's rhetoric to go by when he uses Duke as an example of the Confederates being failures and to justify there removal. After that was accomplished, we still only have Mengsk's rhetoric moving forward. That Mengsk then goes on to lose to the UED and then finally Kerrigan's Swarm is due in part to his incompetence and his initial action of removing the Confederacy.

Why you say? Well, we need to dive into hypotheticals here but there is the possibility that the Confederacy may not have fallen (or lost as many as 9 out of 13 of their coreworlds) had Mengsk not taken his drastic action with the Psi Emitters. If Mengsk was removed from Sc1, it is possible the Confeds lackadaisical regard toward the Zerg was because they already had a plan to control or redirect them away. The Jacobs Installation is testament to that scenario but because Mengsk does exist, the revelations there are twisted by Mengsk to fuel his position and eventual actions. So, if the Confeds could keep the Zerg at bay (since they would also have to contend with the Protoss, too) to maintain the strength of their coreworlds, they would have stood a greater chance at potentially resisting the eventual UED arrival as well in comparison to the actual series of events we got in BW where the UED fought against a government built up from the remnants (caused by a Zerg's surgical strike that would've never happened if Mengsk weren't around) of the previous one and may have partly succeeded because of that. Lastly, the Confeds wouldn't have to deal with what happened in HotS, because Kerrigan's revenge action was a by-product of Mengsk's actions on Tarsonis and if Mengsk was out of the equation then Kerrigan would be, too.

As you can see, Mengsk is the pivot point for all these changes in the government and the reason for all the subsequent turmoil it had to experience.

Keep in mind, though, I'm not necessarily saying it should stay the Dominion, only that it can and most likely will have that label. The death of Mengsk will lead to huge policy change even if Valerian takes the reins, but changing the name of the entity will have political repercussions. People will assume the new government with a new label is just another fly-by-night personality cult, just like the Terran Dominion was with Mengsk. This will lead to disunity and weakness in the face of alien/other faction opposition.

The logic behind that is kinda silly. If everyone knows there's gonna be massive changes in policy anyway, why would they suddenly care about a name change? It would be expected. There's just the same likelihood that people will think by keeping the name, that nothing (in terms of policy etc.) has changed and that they're still weak (given their track record of being stomped to hell twice in 5 years).

[DonnyZeDoof]

This reminds me: was it ever explained how Raynor went from being Tychus's buddy in crime to a marshall by Starcraft Vanilla?

I never understood that. I mean I know Tychus took the fall but surely it shouldn't be possible for Tychus to completely hide Raynor's involvement in the crimes.

- - - Updated - - -

This reminds me: was it ever explained how Raynor went from being Tychus's buddy in crime to a marshall by Starcraft Vanilla?

I never understood that. I mean I know Tychus took the fall but surely it shouldn't be possible for Tychus to completely hide Raynor's involvement in the crimes.

[Nissa]

Yes, we do. Don't hide in minutaie and evasions. The Confederacy disappeared after Mengsk's action of leading the Zerg to their main planet, which implies that even if any remaining leaders remained, they were unable to restore the "Confederacy" government. The 3rd Zerg mission The New Dominion in Sc1 cements the fact that Mengsk is in control and that the Tarsonis invasion totally destroyed the Confederacy as a government. This should be surprising to you given that the Confederates have been established for a very long time and should have deep roots in order to keep going (as your post-Stalin Communist Russia analogy suggests).

Minutaie and evasions? Relax, bro, this isn't a debate. Besides, we really don't know that much about what specifically happened to the Confederacy besides the fact it was destroyed. The Terran missions really don't cover everything about the period, because one can only fit so many missions into a game.

Besides, my basic point was that we don't know exactly how much of it was destroyed by the Zerg, the Sons of Korhal, or independent groups rebelling (as was shown in the mission introducing Kerrigan). Knowing Mengsk, the time was probably ripe for the Confederates to be overthrown. It's not really about the deep roots (Dude, the Soviet Union didn't exist for even a century and had a bad economic model. No deep roots there), but the Confederacy's blatant ignoring of basic morality in their own usage of the Zerg indicates that they see their own purposes as more important than the people. Probably those kinds of self-serving policies were present in the Confederacy long before the Zerg arrived on the scene.

The Dominion's survivability after BW has been a point of contention in discussions elsewhere, so I won't go over that again. Even given that conceit, the damage done by the Zerg in HotS has to be considered in light of it being cumulative in effect from what went on before (although it's been retconned, Mengsk's Dominion originally only consisted of 4 of 13 worlds at the time of it's initiation). Also, Kerrigan did not confine her efforts on Korhal as she blithely allowed her Brood Mothers to destroy other supposedly important military assets/worlds on her way to Korhal whereas the SoK's efforts were specifically more surgical in comparison.

That she avoided civilians is moot in the discussion of a governments removal caused by Zerg invasion. Most of Mengsk's advisors (and the potential future leaders of the Dominion in the advent of Mengsk's death) would be with him in his palace... and we know how that went down. Also, given the nature of an Empire having such a centralised form of government, having his homeworld destroyed (not to mention the "genius" behind it all, Mengsk himself being killed) would've done more damage to that form of government than it would have compared to the slightly more diffuse leadership that the Confeds had. So... if the Confeds were so easily wiped out, I fail to see how the Dominion can not when taking all of these factors into account.

Eh, it's really more of a matter of where Blizz wants to go with it. But given that the Dominion had to exist as an interplanetary model, if Mengsk couldn't some way stick his tendrils on the other worlds, he wouldn't have even been in government in WoL. Surely he had followers/appointees on other worlds.

Of course, what Blizz is going to do is ignore any of those kinds of concerns and just let Valerian be in charge.

Oh, but it is. We only have Mengsk's rhetoric to go by when he uses Duke as an example of the Confederates being failures and to justify there removal. After that was accomplished, we still only have Mengsk's rhetoric moving forward. That Mengsk then goes on to lose to the UED and then finally Kerrigan's Swarm is due in part to his incompetence and his initial action of removing the Confederacy.

Why you say? Well, we need to dive into hypotheticals here but there is the possibility that the Confederacy may not have fallen (or lost as many as 9 out of 13 of their coreworlds) had Mengsk not taken his drastic action with the Psi Emitters. If Mengsk was removed from Sc1, it is possible the Confeds lackadaisical regard toward the Zerg was because they already had a plan to control or redirect them away. The Jacobs Installation is testament to that scenario but because Mengsk does exist, the revelations there are twisted by Mengsk to fuel his position and eventual actions. So, if the Confeds could keep the Zerg at bay (since they would also have to contend with the Protoss, too) to maintain the strength of their coreworlds, they would have stood a greater chance at potentially resisting the eventual UED arrival as well in comparison to the actual series of events we got in BW where the UED fought against a government built up from the remnants (caused by a Zerg's surgical strike that would've never happened if Mengsk weren't around) of the previous one and may have partly succeeded because of that. Lastly, the Confeds wouldn't have to deal with what happened in HotS, because Kerrigan's revenge action was a by-product of Mengsk's actions on Tarsonis and if Mengsk was out of the equation then Kerrigan would be, too.

As you can see, Mengsk is the pivot point for all these changes in the government and the reason for all the subsequent turmoil it had to experience.

As you say, the hypotheticals are everywhere. But I don't think the Confederacy would have survived the Protoss attacks, much less the UED. If they showed as much concern for the outworlds as they did in the early Terran missions, clearly they don't care about their people and are as much willing to throw them away as Mengsk was. Loyalty downwards is more important than loyalty upwards, as Patton said, and the people would not follow the Confederates if they continued to arrest militias in the face of obvious Zerg destruction.

The logic behind that is kinda silly. If everyone knows there's gonna be massive changes in policy anyway, why would they suddenly care about a name change? It would be expected. There's just the same likelihood that people will think by keeping the name, that nothing (in terms of policy etc.) has changed and that they're still weak (given their track record of being stomped to hell twice in 5 years).

Well, it's not about logic -- it's about psychology over reason. Yes, I know, that sounds ridiculous, but people have elected presidents for ridiculous reasons, so the general emotional status of a populace isn't something that can be ignored.

....Eh, I don't know. Since we never got to know much about the population in general, this is all just speculation.

[Shadow Archon]

I was paraphrasing but here's what the man himself says:

"Oh hell, not these Tal'darim guys again. They seriously need to learn when to quit." -Raynor-

So, why should they quit again, Raynor? To serve your needs? So you can stop killing them? To just be "ok about giving up their possessions which also happen to hold a strong religious significance to them?

Exactly!

Yeah, he's not calling them unreasonable at all.

He's saying they should quit while they're ahead.

Not talking about degrees of immorality here, just talking about immorality in general/on base observation which I am very glad that you have noticed. There are others who would claim otherwise - that Raynor was morally justified in his actions against the Tal'Darim.

Well, he's not.

Still, if you want to get mired in the morass of degrees of immorality, one has to consider that Raynor would have had to realise that what he was attempting to steal would be overtly protected by these "fanatics" in the beginning and that it wouldn't just be easy as sneaky in and picking them up.

Well, he does state that he wishes he could get in and get out before they even notice, which doesn't work.

The Confederacy disappeared after Mengsk's action of leading the Zerg to their main planet, which implies that even if any remaining leaders remained, they were unable to restore the "Confederacy" government.

That's because Mengsk, as Emperor of the Dominion, used his resources to assassinate all of the remaining members of the Old Families during the time between SC1 and SC2. He slaughtered all of their children and teens using the Zerg yet again in the Ghost Academy manga.

Nova's the only member of the Old Families left at the modern time of Starcraft.

Also, given the nature of an Empire having such a centralised form of government, having his homeworld destroyed (not to mention the "genius" behind it all, Mengsk himself being killed) would've done more damage to that form of government than it would have compared to the slightly more diffuse leadership that the Confeds had. So... if the Confeds were so easily wiped out, I fail to see how the Dominion can not when taking all of these factors into account.

Well, Arcturus was directly grooming Valerian to be his heir, and Arcturus was working on eliminating the remnants of the Confederacy for years after he took the throne.

Unlike Arcturus, Valerian is a person who wants to change the Dominion from within. He doesn't want to break it down and create his own empire like his father did. He's really in the perfect position to get what he wants done.

There's also the fact that the capital city had enough time to evacuate because of Kerrigan following Valerian's wishes, and that she did use the Zerg much more surgical than anyone else before her.

Billions didn't die on Korhal in HotS unlike the billions that did die on Tarsonis.

There are big differences between both capital worlds being attacked by the Zerg.

[Turalyon]

Relax, bro, this isn't a debate.

Aw, shucks. Just when I thought it was going to be fun!

Besides, we really don't know that much about what specifically happened to the Confederacy besides the fact it was destroyed.

That's part of the point. We don't really need to know much more except that it was destroyed after the Zerg got to Tarsonis. Now in HotS, we know that the Dominion has been destroyed as well...

Besides, my basic point was that we don't know exactly how much of it was destroyed by the Zerg, the Sons of Korhal, or independent groups rebelling (as was shown in the mission introducing Kerrigan).

Yes we do. Nine of thirteen coreworlds were destroyed - one of which included their capitol world, which incidentally was the final straw.

Knowing Mengsk, the time was probably ripe for the Confederates to be overthrown. It's not really about the deep roots (Dude, the Soviet Union didn't exist for even a century and had a bad economic model. No deep roots there), but the Confederacy's blatant ignoring of basic morality in their own usage of the Zerg indicates that they see their own purposes as more important than the people. Probably those kinds of self-serving policies were present in the Confederacy long before the Zerg arrived on the scene.

Aside from the issue of using the USSR as an (inadequate) analogy to any government system in Starcraft to begin with, I was just "throwing the ball back" at you in regards to how you can initially justify the possible continuance of the Dominion using them as an example but not for how the Confederacy could of continued on in spite of suffering a fate no so dissimilar to the Dominion's in HotS. What you said about the Confederacy applies equally if not moreso to the Dominion/Mengsk and yet the latter is expected to get a free pass because narrative conceit is now an acceptable in-universe explanation?

But given that the Dominion had to exist as an interplanetary model, if Mengsk couldn't some way stick his tendrils on the other worlds, he wouldn't have even been in government in WoL. Surely he had followers/appointees on other worlds.

I know where you're going with this but this could've easily been attributed to the Confeds, too. Their roots would've been even deeper than Mengsk's given their rule was >150 years compared to Mengsk's barely 5 years. And yet for whatever contrived reasons that exist, we are to accept that the Confederates are a permanent footnote after suffering one cataclysm whilst the Dominion is somehow indestructible after surviving two catalcysms (the UED and Kerrigan's Swarm). Yeah, makes sense to me

As you say, the hypotheticals are everywhere. But I don't think the Confederacy would have survived the Protoss attacks, much less the UED. If they showed as much concern for the outworlds as they did in the early Terran missions, clearly they don't care about their people and are as much willing to throw them away as Mengsk was.

Ooh, this is a fun hypothetical! If Mengsk did not exist, what is there to give you the impression that the Confederacy (and to an extent, the Terrans as a whole in the K sector) would've still failed miserably or would do worse than what we actually got with Mengsk existing? Who's to say that the Confeds didn't have a contingency in dealing with/managing the Zerg threat had they not been blind-sided by Mengsk's ruthlessness? Because the Confeds strength is not predicated on those lesser outworlds, we can't really say that the destruction of such outworlds by Zerg invasion (which can be diverted from their coreworlds indefinitely or other worlds as needed with their invention of Psi-emitters) and subsequent Protoss purification (an action that would have soon stopped anyway due to Tassdar's conscience catching up) would ultimately lead to the Confederacy's actual or complete destruction.

There are big differences between both capital worlds being attacked by the Zerg.

Yeah, I know this but that still doesn't nullify my original point. With the Confederacy, the head was cut off by at the action at Tarsonis and the government essentially ceases to exist in terms of relevance, and yet the very same thing happens to the Dominion in HotS (a government that is predicated on Mengsk as it's head and more potentially vulnerable as such) and the government is expected to still continue existing seemingly because of narrative convenience. This is not even factoring the "youth" of Mengsk's government, the exposure of Mengsk's crimes nor the gutting that his government received at the hands of the UED earlier, all of which would usually reduce the chances of that government being able to continue in it's current framework.

[Nissa]

Aw, shucks. Just when I thought it was going to be fun!

"Nissa" is latin for "absolutely no fun at all."

That's part of the point. We don't really need to know much more except that it was destroyed after the Zerg got to Tarsonis. Now in HotS, we know that the Dominion has been destroyed as well...

Actually, we don't. We know that Korhal has been badly hit, the leader is dead, and other planets were attacked as well. We don't know the aftermath of those other attacks, but given that Kerri was persuaded to avoid civilians, it's at least plausible Jimmy boy got her to show some mercy elsewhere. That, and Kerrigan probably is going to get the Zerg together to attack Amon.

Besides, do you really think Blizzard is going to let the Dominion be destroyed?

Yes we do. Nine of thirteen coreworlds were destroyed - one of which included their capitol world, which incidentally was the final straw.

I dunno, I smell Blizz manipulation on that bit.

Aside from the issue of using the USSR as an (inadequate) analogy to any government system in Starcraft to begin with, I was just "throwing the ball back" at you in regards to how you can initially justify the possible continuance of the Dominion using them as an example but not for how the Confederacy could of continued on in spite of suffering a fate no so dissimilar to the Dominion's in HotS. What you said about the Confederacy applies equally if not moreso to the Dominion/Mengsk and yet the latter is expected to get a free pass because narrative conceit is now an acceptable in-universe explanation?

Keep in mind what I'm trying to say. I'm saying that the label "Dominion" will go on, but it will, in practice, become something different.

If the Dominion is really destroyed as a political entity (actual literal destruction aside for the moment), then the logical option is for it to become many smaller groups, because so much happened to the Dominion worlds that it is more likely the general citizens will be fed up with what happened to them thus far, and it does not appear that there is a leader able to keep everyone together. So the two likely options are that either Valerian can keep everyone united in survival, or that as the Dominion dissolves, so will the unity of any remaining Dominion worlds. I personally think that the first option is the one more likely for Blizz to go with.

I know where you're going with this but this could've easily been attributed to the Confeds, too. Their roots would've been even deeper than Mengsk's given their rule was >150 years compared to Mengsk's barely 5 years. And yet for whatever contrived reasons that exist, we are to accept that the Confederates are a permanent footnote after suffering one cataclysm whilst the Dominion is somehow indestructible after surviving two catalcysms (the UED and Kerrigan's Swarm). Yeah, makes sense to me

Don't blame me for that one. I didn't write SCII.

...Actually, I've been having some life regrets lately. If I had studied programming as a kid like my brother did, I'm pretty sure I could have ended up at Blizzard. Never mind, feel free to blame me.

Ooh, this is a fun hypothetical! If Mengsk did not exist, what is there to give you the impression that the Confederacy (and to an extent, the Terrans as a whole in the K sector) would've still failed miserably or would do worse than what we actually got with Mengsk existing? Who's to say that the Confeds didn't have a contingency in dealing with/managing the Zerg threat had they not been blind-sided by Mengsk's ruthlessness? Because the Confeds strength is not predicated on those lesser outworlds, we can't really say that the destruction of such outworlds by Zerg invasion (which can be diverted from their coreworlds indefinitely or other worlds as needed with their invention of Psi-emitters) and subsequent Protoss purification (an action that would have soon stopped anyway due to Tassdar's conscience catching up) would ultimately lead to the Confederacy's actual or complete destruction.

Excellent question. Though the Confederates did not need the outer worlds to survive, their actions there indicate they're willing to throw anybody under the bus for their own goals. This is clearly a cause for the people under the Confederates to want to splinter off from them. Like in the mission where we first met Kerrigan, all she had to do was kill one guy and the Sons of Korhal had a whole base on their side. Clearly, the Confederacy was under political turmoil at that point, ripe for dissent. The use of psi emitters is not limited to Mengsk himself, anyway. In any case, the Confederate people were more likely to accept Mengsk because he represented what they believed was a uniting leader and not into the Confederacy's nonsense.

Also, keep in mind what a "confederacy" is. It's an association of independent political entities who happen to work together. This indicates a general lack of unity and ability to present a solid front in the face of outside threat.

Also, Mengsk is responsible for liberating Raynor from a prison ship. Raynor's friendship with Tassadar played a role in Tassadar's actions, at least to some degree. Not sure how much, but it's surely a thing.

Yeah, I know this but that still doesn't nullify my original point. With the Confederacy, the head was cut off by at the action at Tarsonis and the government essentially ceases to exist in terms of relevance, and yet the very same thing happens to the Dominion in HotS (a government that is predicated on Mengsk as it's head and more potentially vulnerable as such) and the government is expected to still continue existing seemingly because of narrative convenience. This is not even factoring the "youth" of Mengsk's government, the exposure of Mengsk's crimes nor the gutting that his government received at the hands of the UED earlier, all of which would usually reduce the chances of that government being able to continue in it's current framework.

I don't know if we can call it the "very same thing," but yes, it's certainly an issue of narrative convenience -- I doubt this issue will end up being treated with depth. Still, it's not the framework of the Dominion that will survive (if it does) but rather primarily the name. The name itself could potentially serve as a unifying motif to keep people hanging on. The framework? Now that's clearly out, because it was merely whatever Mengsk wanted in the first place.


Well, let's look at it from the standpoint of things as it is now. What is the most likely thing to happen to the survivors? Also, it's interesting to point out that out of all the humans, the Dominion has been suffering the most from the Zerg. Or am I missing some kind of alternate source?