Valerian in LoTV

[Shadow Archon]

Yeah, I know this but that still doesn't nullify my original point.

How so?

With the Confederacy, the head was cut off by at the action at Tarsonis and the government essentially ceases to exist in terms of relevance,

Hold on there.

Tarsonis was absolutely razed to the ground, with all cities on the planet turned into scrapyards, and a giant graveyard for billions.

The world itself was a major Zerg planet until Kerrigan moved to Char at the end of Brood War.

The Confederacy's head was cut off and ripped into tiny shreds by the Zerg. Then when they left, it was further desecrated by Arcuturs as he hunted down the remnants of the Old Families.

The Dominion's head hardly recieves anywhere near the same treatment.

and yet the very same thing happens to the Dominion in HotS

No, it doesn't.

The capital city is the only place that is attacked by the full force of the Swarm on Korhal.

Civilians have time to evacuate and Valerian, the crown prince that the Dominion military has tried to straight up murder, is working with the invaders. Not to mention, both the Combine and the Umojan Protectorate support Raynor's Raiders and Prince Valerian.

After Mengsk's death, the Swarm leaves, and Augustgrad is far more intact than the cities on Tarsonis. The Dominion still has their capital world rather completely intact.

Korhal is still a living thriving planet with six billion Terrans as shown by the Celestial Array's statistics of it in Legacy of the Void.

The situations of both planets are complete polar opposites.

(a government that is predicated on Mengsk as it's head and more potentially vulnerable as such)

Arcturus was directly grooming Valerian to take over. So, you still have a Mengsk as its head.

He fit the vacuum left by Arcturus instantly and perfectly.

Not to mention, it is public knowledge that he had the help of the Queen of Blades. People are still fine with him having the throne.

He has better PR, and he's the grandson of one of the main rulers of the Umojan Protectorate, and is directly allied with Raynor's Raiders who were being supported by the leaders of the Kel-Morine Combine.

He is in the perfect position to take control of the Dominion.

and the government is expected to still continue existing seemingly because of narrative convenience.

I disagree completely.

The situations are entirely different, and it makes sense to me.

It's not narrative convenience at all.

This is not even factoring the "youth" of Mengsk's government,

Youth doesn't mean too much.

The Dominion was the first political power to completely unite all Terran worlds in the K-Sector into a single power in Starcraft 1.

the exposure of Mengsk's crime

Which the writers did address in a Q&A:

Question: At the end of Wings of Liberty, Mengsk's empire was collapsing. The zerg had overrun most of the fringe worlds and were encroaching on the core worlds. Raynor had revealed Mengsk's genocide of Tarsonis to all the people of the Dominion, and they were in open revolt and rioting out in the streets of the major cities, including Augustgrad. His son had then commandeered half the fleet in a desperate move to kill the Queen of Blades. How has Mengsk maintained control of the Terran Dominion with all this war and conflict?

Answer: With a mix of brutality, incredible intrigue, and old-fashioned cunning. Mengsk's empire at the time of Heart of the Swarm is by no means secure, but he is crafty and has many mechanisms to hold on to power. If the Swarm had been out to dismantle his empire, that would have been too much to withstand...or if the Kel-Morians had still been a viable enemy at that time, that could have been the tipping point. But remember, the Swarm was taking planets only to search for the artifact, and the Swarm fractured when the Queen of Blades disappeared. And the Kel-Morians were barely holding it together at that time.
---------------------
Question: Who specifically was Tychus working for, and what were his instructions? If he was working for Arcturus, the events of "Media Blitz" are a bit incongruous, since it seems unlikely that Mengsk would have been okay with ruining the big Odin unveiling and broadcasting the tape of the Confederate adjutant.

Answer: I'm particularly glad this one was asked, as I answered it at BlizzCon a few years ago and gave kind of a jumbled response.

The shortest version is, by the time of "Media Blitz" (which comes mid/late in the game no matter how you play it); Mengsk already had much bigger fish to fry. He had one chance to play his Tychus card; if he'd ordered Tychus to sabotage that mission, Raynor would have been on to him. If "Media Blitz" had happened as the third or fourth mission of the game, Mengsk would have played that card immediately. But by the time Tychus was stomping around Korhal, Mengsk was facing a zerg Swarm boiling off of Char and taking worlds. He had spies telling him that the Moebius Foundation might have found a way to make Kerrigan human again. He took damage from "Media Blitz," but it was nothing compared to the danger of the Swarm and the potential reward of using Tychus against Kerrigan.

After all, if Mengsk defeated the Swarm, his people would adore him even if he had a few billion deaths on his hands. If the Queen of Blades came after him . . . the adoration of his people wouldn't save him.

Nerves of steel, that Mengsk.

Mengsk was riding-the-pony by claiming the Dominion removed the Zerg threat for good.

...Then the Zerg threat came back, killed Arcturus, and left Terran space.

Suddenly, Valerian is left the throne, as Arcturus groomed him for. It's public knowledge that Valerian was working with the Queen of Blades.

It's also public knowledge that the Zerg have left Dominion space right after.

Given Valerian was going to use the "I rehabilitated the biggest murderer in history!" for his own PR as he got closer to the throne, I'm fine with the Dominion being intact and him having control over it in LotV.

nor the gutting that his government received at the hands of the UED earlier,

His government was gutted...four years ago.

We already know it's weaker in SC2, because the Dominion used to completely contain not only the remnant worlds of the Confederacy of Man, but also the Kel-Morine Combine and the Umoja Protectorate.

The Emperor and His Dominion

As the titanic battle between the Protoss and the Zerg reached the boiling point upon the planet Aiur, Arcturus Mengsk took steps to consolidate his own power within the newly formed Terran Dominion. Having crowned himself Emperor of the Dominion, all of the Terran colonies within the Koprulu sector were united under one sovereign rule for the first time.

By the time past Brood War?

The Umoja Protectorate and the Kel-Morine Combine are separate political powers once again.

I also have to point out that the setting during Brood War was much smaller than the retconned, upscaled setting of SC2.

The entire K-Sector contained 13 Terran worlds.

That was it.

9 of them were invaded by the Zerg in the wake of the first campaign.

Now?

The Terrans have over a hundred worlds at least.

The scale is completely different now.

And since we have no idea how many worlds are split between the three powers, we can't really determine how much of a change there is between the Dominion of SC1 and SC2 since the setting has been radically altered to be bigger in scale.

[Turalyon]

Actually, we don't. We know that Korhal has been badly hit, the leader is dead, and other planets were attacked as well. We don't know the aftermath of those other attacks, but given that Kerri was persuaded to avoid civilians, it's at least plausible Jimmy boy got her to show some mercy elsewhere. That, and Kerrigan probably is going to get the Zerg together to attack Amon.

Oh, I get it now. So stuff happening has no consequences. Gotcha!

We knew that Tarsonis had been hit, their leaders were dead and other planets got attacked as well. That's apparently enough to spell the death of the Confederacy even though we didn't know the details of the aftermath either.

Besides, do you really think Blizzard is going to let the Dominion be destroyed?

No, I do not and that's part of the problem. It's poor writing when you can see such obvious authorial intrusion in fictional works.

I dunno, I smell Blizz manipulation on that bit.

You're right, given the retcon to the size and influence of Terran space in Sc2 from Sc1. Still, doesn't the fact that the Confeds pretty much disappeared and the Dominion established itself in record time (it's established enough that he can send his best general to Char in Mission 3 of Episode 2 in Sc1).

Keep in mind what I'm trying to say. I'm saying that the label "Dominion" will go on, but it will, in practice, become something different.

Then it's not really the "Dominion" is it? Why bother calling it the same thing when now everyone associates it with Mengsk's crimes? The "Dominion Empire" was just a cult of personality creation by Mengsk - why would anyone want to accept the continuation of such a thing after it had brought ruin to them twice in 5 years? It'd be farcical if it wasn't such a serious issue.

If the Dominion is really destroyed as a political entity (actual literal destruction aside for the moment), then the logical option is for it to become many smaller groups, because so much happened to the Dominion worlds that it is more likely the general citizens will be fed up with what happened to them thus far, and it does not appear that there is a leader able to keep everyone together. So the two likely options are that either Valerian can keep everyone united in survival, or that as the Dominion dissolves, so will the unity of any remaining Dominion worlds. I personally think that the first option is the one more likely for Blizz to go with.

This is at least more credible and interesting then the "whelp, everything's back to normal and but with Valerian as Emperor instead"-angle that seems to be occurring (I'll be happy to see myself proven wrong).

Don't blame me for that one.

I don't. Just making an observation that willing suspension of disbelief has gone out the window and been replaced with total lack of credibility as the norm now.

Though the Confederates did not need the outer worlds to survive, their actions there indicate they're willing to throw anybody under the bus for their own goals....Clearly, the Confederacy was under political turmoil at that point, ripe for dissent.

A scenario that is not too dissimilar to what Mengsk had to experience in Sc2 before he finally got offed.... and yet his Dominion is still spared regardless whilst the Confederates influence and power just conveniently rolls over and disappears.

Also, keep in mind what a "confederacy" is. It's an association of independent political entities who happen to work together. This indicates a general lack of unity and ability to present a solid front in the face of outside threat.

The "association of independent political entities who work together" can be a potential reason for the Confederacy to still retain power and influence even after something as bad as the Tarsonis invasion taking place since it can imply their power is not drawn from being centralised and is therefore less vulnerable to such an attack. As to the "lack of unity and ability to present a solid front", we'll never really know because Mengsk blind-sided them and brought the Zerg to their doorstep so quickly. We do know the Confeds had Psi-Emitter tech, so one could reason that the seemingly lackadaisical approach they had toward the oncoming Zerg was because they already had plans to manage them. Obviously, they couldn't plan for what Mengsk eventually did to them.

Also, Mengsk is responsible for liberating Raynor from a prison ship. Raynor's friendship with Tassadar played a role in Tassadar's actions, at least to some degree. Not sure how much, but it's surely a thing.

It's questionable what role or importance Raynor served outside of Episode 1 in Sc1. He didn't have any involvement in any critical plots such that if he were hypothetically absent in Episode 2 and 3 of Sc1, it wouldn't have affected the storyline or the outcome of Sc1 really.

I don't know if we can call it the "very same thing," but yes, it's certainly an issue of narrative convenience -- I doubt this issue will end up being treated with depth.

I know that the specifics and details are not the same thing, I was merely using "the very same thing" in broad terms to essentially convey the notion of "the head being cut-off and the rest died". Somehow, this just doesn't apply to the governmental system that is the Dominion.

yes, it's certainly an issue of narrative convenience -- I doubt this issue will end up being treated with depth.

Unfortunately, the feeling is mutual.

Still, it's not the framework of the Dominion that will survive (if it does) but rather primarily the name. The name itself could potentially serve as a unifying motif to keep people hanging on.

You haven't quite convinced me. A political party that fundamentally changes it's entire framework and policy for good reason (because previously it didn't work but actually brought about its own ruin and now everyone knows why) would not do well by keeping a name that brings up association to the bad things that forced the current changes in the first place. It's basic PR. I could probably accept the name being changed to "The New Dominion" but even then I'd had a few reservations.

Well, let's look at it from the standpoint of things as it is now. What is the most likely thing to happen to the survivors? Also, it's interesting to point out that out of all the humans, the Dominion has been suffering the most from the Zerg. Or am I missing some kind of alternate source?

Well, since Kerrigan has no need to attack the Terrans anymore and that the Protoss have already pretty much left them alone, they'll be left on their own devices to do what Terrans do best I suppose, fighting each other most likely... provided that the Hybrids don't decide to go kill them all first.

[Nissa]

You're right, given the retcon to the size and influence of Terran space in Sc2 from Sc1. Still, doesn't the fact that the Confeds pretty much disappeared and the Dominion established itself in record time (it's established enough that he can send his best general to Char in Mission 3 of Episode 2 in Sc1).

Well, I was willing to forgive it in Sc1 because of narrative shorthand, and because right after Mengsk makes his fancy speech, the game perspective automatically goes to Zerg and Protoss events. Presumably the political stabilization Mengsk needed to do happened at those points in time.

Then it's not really the "Dominion" is it? Why bother calling it the same thing when now everyone associates it with Mengsk's crimes? The "Dominion Empire" was just a cult of personality creation by Mengsk - why would anyone want to accept the continuation of such a thing after it had brought ruin to them twice in 5 years? It'd be farcical if it wasn't such a serious issue.

Well, again with the communist parallels, Mao is still heralded as a great leader of China, despite the fact he killed 60-70 million Chinese, destroyed Chinese cultural places and artifacts, refused to allow them to produce non-approved Chinese movies/plays, and his policies are continually being replaced with more capitalistic methods. It can happen.

But yes, certainly the more realistic reaction is for everyone to splinter off. Given that Starcraft is populated heavily with rednecks and redneck sentiment is to strike out on one's own, the Dominion really should be shattered into far smaller divisions. Probably planetary based ones. I imagine that the Kel-Morian Combine would gain some guilds too, while we're at it.

The "association of independent political entities who work together" can be a potential reason for the Confederacy to still retain power and influence even after something as bad as the Tarsonis invasion taking place since it can imply their power is not drawn from being centralised and is therefore less vulnerable to such an attack. As to the "lack of unity and ability to present a solid front", we'll never really know because Mengsk blind-sided them and brought the Zerg to their doorstep so quickly. We do know the Confeds had Psi-Emitter tech, so one could reason that the seemingly lackadaisical approach they had toward the oncoming Zerg was because they already had plans to manage them. Obviously, they couldn't plan for what Mengsk eventually did to them.

I disagree. I feel like disunity in the face of the Zerg is the most deadly issue non-Zerg face. Like the Protoss, for example. Their internal strife left them vulnerable to the Zerg. And if the Zerg are capable of destroying the homeworld of a race superior in tech and psychic power, then the Confederacy had no hope of survival. The only things that saved the Dominion were (1) Aiur being a bigger Zerg priority and (2) Kerrigan willing to allow Mengsk to live so that she could torment him.

It's questionable what role or importance Raynor served outside of Episode 1 in Sc1. He didn't have any involvement in any critical plots such that if he were hypothetically absent in Episode 2 and 3 of Sc1, it wouldn't have affected the storyline or the outcome of Sc1 really.

I know, it's just an interesting part of the hypothetical.

You haven't quite convinced me. A political party that fundamentally changes it's entire framework and policy for good reason (because previously it didn't work but actually brought about its own ruin and now everyone knows why) would not do well by keeping a name that brings up association to the bad things that forced the current changes in the first place. It's basic PR. I could probably accept the name being changed to "The New Dominion" but even then I'd had a few reservations.

Fair enough. It's really more an issue of Blizzard being convincing with any method they happen to choose.

Well, since Kerrigan has no need to attack the Terrans anymore and that the Protoss have already pretty much left them alone, they'll be left on their own devices to do what Terrans do best I suppose, fighting each other most likely... provided that the Hybrids don't decide to go kill them all first.

That's depressing. And my biggest problem with the Terrans in general. They've always been going on about their (dumb) business, while the greater events of the universe pass them by. They need to step up and do stuff. Honestly, in both BW and SC2, I would have preferred that Mengsk find himself working with the Protoss (he'd do it if it made him look like a better leader), and starting to realize how very small he is in the grand scheme of things.

[Turalyon]

Well, I was willing to forgive it in Sc1 because of narrative shorthand, and because right after Mengsk makes his fancy speech, the game perspective automatically goes to Zerg and Protoss events. Presumably the political stabilization Mengsk needed to do happened at those points in time.

So.... are we now saying that the Confederacy should've lasted longer despite Tarsonis being wrecked?

Well, again with the communist parallels, Mao is still heralded as a great leader of China, despite the fact he killed 60-70 million Chinese, destroyed Chinese cultural places and artifacts, refused to allow them to produce non-approved Chinese movies/plays, and his policies are continually being replaced with more capitalistic methods. It can happen.

You can draw all the parallels you want, doesn't make the Dominion situation anywhere comparable to Communist China under Mao. Compared to Mao, Mengsk didn't even last 5 years and would never be heralded as a great leader by anyone.

I feel like disunity in the face of the Zerg is the most deadly issue non-Zerg face.

I never said otherwise. I was only questioning whether the Confederacy were really breaking apart on their own from internal strife because we only have one example in the game (Antiga - a "border colony") and Mengsk's rhetoric to go by. Besides, the Confederacy doesn't need unified Terran might to place Psi Emitters on dead planets (or in this case, troublesome colony worlds that don't fully adhere to the Confederacy anyway) to lure the Zerg away from their coreworlds. By then, the Protoss would've enough time to bear their forces and force a battle of attrition - something that the Overmind feared/didn't want.

And if the Zerg are capable of destroying the homeworld of a race superior in tech and psychic power, then the Confederacy had no hope of survival.

Keep in mind that the Zerg assault on Aiur was a surprise attack that was totally unexpected by the Protoss.

The only things that saved the Dominion were (1) Aiur being a bigger Zerg priority and (2) Kerrigan willing to allow Mengsk to live so that she could torment him.

Those two points are all predicated on Mengsk's actions in Episode 1 being enacted. If he did not instigate the events in The Big Push and New Gettysburg (or exist at all), the Zerg may never have found their human psionic and would've been forestalled indefinitely by the Protoss as their awareness of the threat the Zerg presented grew.

That's depressing. And my biggest problem with the Terrans in general. They've always been going on about their (dumb) business, while the greater events of the universe pass them by. They need to step up and do stuff. Honestly, in both BW and SC2, I would have preferred that Mengsk find himself working with the Protoss (he'd do it if it made him look like a better leader), and starting to realize how very small he is in the grand scheme of things.

I don't see anything wrong with that because that's how they were originally conceived. Sure, it's a pretty cynical take on humanity in general, but that's what it's like surviving on the frontier, I guess. The biggest competitor you have is the person next to you, so you'd better one-up them before they do that to you. Also, the Terrans aren't really meant to be there and don't expect aliens coming to kill them (that they are is a case of "wrong place, wrong time"), so they continue doing what they've been doing best for centuries - bickering.

[Nissa]

So.... are we now saying that the Confederacy should've lasted longer despite Tarsonis being wrecked?

....Sort of. Possibly. The trouble is that the first Terran missions are really time compressed -- Raynor and Kerri supposedly met Tassadar, Raynor saved Kerri several times, and a multi-planet nation gets taken out, but we only get to see the plot that's connected to the missions we played. I've always imagined that remnants of the Confederacy survived to give Mengsk trouble, hence Duran's lies to the UED making some sense.

All speculation, of course.

You can draw all the parallels you want, doesn't make the Dominion situation anywhere comparable to Communist China under Mao. Compared to Mao, Mengsk didn't even last 5 years and would never be heralded as a great leader by anyone.

You never know. Mao's long reign only lasted because China had enough resources to weather him. That, and he never faced a Zerg or UED invasion.

I never said otherwise. I was only questioning whether the Confederacy were really breaking apart on their own from internal strife because we only have one example in the game (Antiga - a "border colony") and Mengsk's rhetoric to go by. Besides, the Confederacy doesn't need unified Terran might to place Psi Emitters on dead planets (or in this case, troublesome colony worlds that don't fully adhere to the Confederacy anyway) to lure the Zerg away from their coreworlds. By then, the Protoss would've enough time to bear their forces and force a battle of attrition - something that the Overmind feared/didn't want.

Hm, you make a good point, and this is getting a bit too speculative for me. I will say though, that Confederate treachery must run pretty deep if they're willing to sic Zerg on their own colonies -- entire planets, mind you. Not to mention that one downloadable mission where space pirates encountered some of their scientific experiments. Hm, let me find that mission again. It's been a while since I've seen it.

I don't see anything wrong with that because that's how they were originally conceived. Sure, it's a pretty cynical take on humanity in general, but that's what it's like surviving on the frontier, I guess. The biggest competitor you have is the person next to you, so you'd better one-up them before they do that to you. Also, the Terrans aren't really meant to be there and don't expect aliens coming to kill them (that they are is a case of "wrong place, wrong time"), so they continue doing what they've been doing best for centuries - bickering.

Trouble is, that's boring. We've had so much internal strife by this point that the story really could use a refresher. The base premise of Starcraft was three races duking it out for the K Sector, and the humans need a compelling reason to convince the audience they can actually accomplish that. Even in BW, I was fairly bored by the UED because they had nothing to do with the greater events of the Sector. While Starcraft is dystopian, if humans never do anything relevant to the hybrids or Amon or whatever, then they'll just be the same thing they always were: boring, useless, and mere justifications for the Conclave to want to blow them all up.

[Turalyon]

The trouble is that the first Terran missions are really time compressed -- Raynor and Kerri supposedly met Tassadar, Raynor saved Kerri several times, and a multi-planet nation gets taken out, but we only get to see the plot that's connected to the missions we played.

Huh? The fall of Tarsonis and the end of the Confederacy occurs and is confirmed by the end of the Rebel Yell. Unless you're advocating that the time in between missions were detailing the Confederacy taking more body blow which culminated in their ultimate and complete defeat at Tarsonis, I don't see how not seeing other stuff between missions could support the notion of the Confederacy still surviving and maintain control over Terran affairs.

I've always imagined that remnants of the Confederacy survived to give Mengsk trouble, hence Duran's lies to the UED making some sense.

Problem with this is that Mission 3 of Episode 2 (Overmind campaign) would seem to suggest otherwise. If Mengsk was still having a tough time suppressing the Confederacy even after Tarsonis, he wouldn't have sent his best general (considering that the magistrate and Raynor had left him) to Char on what would be a comparatively meaningless affair. The hypothetical is not about whether Confederate sentiment exists (we know it probably does), but about them still having power and influence over Terran affairs.

You never know.

In the grand scheme of things and the future history of the universe, I'd imagine that people wouldn't even put Mengsk Snr down as a footnote in history books let alone laud him for his non-accomplishments. If any were to remember his short tenure, he'd be ridiculed as the most incompetent leader of all time.

I will say though, that Confederate treachery must run pretty deep if they're willing to sic Zerg on their own colonies -- entire planets, mind you.

Those fringe/border colonies are not technically important or vital to the Confederacy so they can afford to experiment on them. They're only considered Confederate colonies because they (and most other authoratitive governments) have an unhealthy fixation on trying to control and plaster their name on everything.

Trouble is, that's boring. We've had so much internal strife by this point that the story really could use a refresher. The base premise of Starcraft was three races duking it out for the K Sector, and the humans need a compelling reason to convince the audience they can actually accomplish that. Even in BW, I was fairly bored by the UED because they had nothing to do with the greater events of the Sector. While Starcraft is dystopian, if humans never do anything relevant to the hybrids or Amon or whatever, then they'll just be the same thing they always were: boring, useless, and mere justifications for the Conclave to want to blow them all up.

To each their own. I don't find it boring - there's plenty of unexplored depth to the Terran factions such that you could literally focus a Starcraft game on their potential intricacies alone. Rebel Yell was a great campaign even though there was no meaningful conflict against the Zerg or Protoss - indeed, they were used more to prop up and give meaning to the internal Terran conflicts.

On the other hand, I do get that the premise is supposed to be 3 factions duking it out. The Sc1 setup was perfect: The Zerg had reason to attack Terrans and Protoss all because it fed into their innate drive to consume and better themselves. The Terran had reason to be hostile to Zerg (undestandably) and the Protoss for their careless and seemingly inhumane treatment of their worlds/people (and because humans are always more naturally inclined toward xenophobia generally). The Protoss had reason to be hostile to Zerg (once again for oobvious reasons) and the Terran for their belligerent attitudes and flagrant disregard to their planets, themselves and aliens as well as their role in providing a potential pivot point advantage to the Zerg.

Course, the shift in focus to specific "important" characters in later installment meant that it made Terran and Protoss hostilities less "justifiable" (or naturalistic) - as borne out in the hackneyed matchups we get in WoL. The Raynor vs Selendis fight needs a huge amount of willing suspension of disbelief and the Tal'Darim are presented seemingly in a manner only just to provide Protoss enemies to fight even if they have been represented elsewhere. The Shadow Corps in LotV has the whiff of Tal'darim on them as a result now, too. They're there just to provide a TvP matchup because there seems to be an inherent need for it even though the lore/story kind of makes it hard now to make it seem naturally occurring without gimmick.

I've always had mixed feelings with the UED but I don't agree they had no role in continuing the 3-way-fight you expect of Sc. I know this is debatable, but at the time of Sc1, the K-Sector Terrans were essentially intimated in the story as the weaksauce faction of the 3. Even though all factions suffered crushing blows, to me the Terrans always felt behind the 8-ball in any matchup with the other no matter how weak the other two were. The UED, as a concept, was the opportunity to give the Terrans a shot-in-the-arm in terms of power levels and some potential for antagonism (as you've noted in the past, you've felt Mengsk shouldn't be agressor against the Protoss or Zerg when he gained power). Sure, it was a little contrived and convenient but the UED potentially gave us a reason for us to sustain the core concept of the 3-way conflict that is supposed to be what Sc is about. The way it turned out was quite a bit of a hit-and-miss however (that they focused on Mengsk for the majority is justifiably disappointing and then just made to disappear in the end) but if nothing else, the UED have my kudos for having the potential of making the Terrans seem more "relevent" in the 3-way conflict.

[Nissa]

Huh? The fall of Tarsonis and the end of the Confederacy occurs and is confirmed by the end of the Rebel Yell. Unless you're advocating that the time in between missions were detailing the Confederacy taking more body blow which culminated in their ultimate and complete defeat at Tarsonis, I don't see how not seeing other stuff between missions could support the notion of the Confederacy still surviving and maintain control over Terran affairs.

Implying? I'm directly stating that the time between missions was spent doing other things against the Confederacy, and other things in general.

Problem with this is that Mission 3 of Episode 2 (Overmind campaign) would seem to suggest otherwise. If Mengsk was still having a tough time suppressing the Confederacy even after Tarsonis, he wouldn't have sent his best general (considering that the magistrate and Raynor had left him) to Char on what would be a comparatively meaningless affair. The hypothetical is not about whether Confederate sentiment exists (we know it probably does), but about them still having power and influence over Terran affairs.

Is that really? My point was that the Confederacy existed to a subtle degree post their political defeat. Surely they aren't a true power anymore, that much is certain. However, their existence would be confined to two specific things: whatever small remnant groups felt like causing Mengsk trouble (note Duran's use of the term Confederate Resistance Forces), and the small groups involved in creating the hybrids. The latter group surely hid away while the former provided distraction from their existence. Or so I interpret.

In the grand scheme of things and the future history of the universe, I'd imagine that people wouldn't even put Mengsk Snr down as a footnote in history books let alone laud him for his non-accomplishments. If any were to remember his short tenure, he'd be ridiculed as the most incompetent leader of all time.

Heh, fair enough. Well, assuming they don't remember him as a tyrant, petty or otherwise.

Those fringe/border colonies are not technically important or vital to the Confederacy so they can afford to experiment on them. They're only considered Confederate colonies because they (and most other authoratitive governments) have an unhealthy fixation on trying to control and plaster their name on everything.

You're missing the point. Sure, the Confederacy can afford to lose those planets, but if they are the kind of people who are willing to throw away the fringe colonies, think about what kind of morals they have. What kind of things would they do on their prime planets, if they are those kinds of people? Surely they are doing things that would cause animosity in the general populace. Not to mention that Duran states he's part of Confederate forces. This is probably true, given that Duran is not alone when we find him. Since we know that Duran used both the UED and Kerrigan for his purposes, it's entirely reasonable that he was involved in the Confederacy, using it to support his research in creating the hybrids.

To each their own. I don't find it boring - there's plenty of unexplored depth to the Terran factions such that you could literally focus a Starcraft game on their potential intricacies alone. Rebel Yell was a great campaign even though there was no meaningful conflict against the Zerg or Protoss - indeed, they were used more to prop up and give meaning to the internal Terran conflicts.

....Uh....that's a separate campaign, right? I don't think I've played that. Well, it's not so much that the Terrans can't have an interesting story, it's just that the stuff with the Protoss, Zerg, and hybrids is far more interesting than they are, and there hasn't been enough emphasis thus far on Terran political structure, or rivals to Mengsk, or Morians/Umojans, or just anyone or anything not somehow involved in Zerg or Protoss matters.

On the other hand, I do get that the premise is supposed to be 3 factions duking it out. The Sc1 setup was perfect: The Zerg had reason to attack Terrans and Protoss all because it fed into their innate drive to consume and better themselves. The Terran had reason to be hostile to Zerg (undestandably) and the Protoss for their careless and seemingly inhumane treatment of their worlds/people (and because humans are always more naturally inclined toward xenophobia generally). The Protoss had reason to be hostile to Zerg (once again for oobvious reasons) and the Terran for their belligerent attitudes and flagrant disregard to their planets, themselves and aliens as well as their role in providing a potential pivot point advantage to the Zerg.

Course, the shift in focus to specific "important" characters in later installment meant that it made Terran and Protoss hostilities less "justifiable" (or naturalistic) - as borne out in the hackneyed matchups we get in WoL. The Raynor vs Selendis fight needs a huge amount of willing suspension of disbelief and the Tal'Darim are presented seemingly in a manner only just to provide Protoss enemies to fight even if they have been represented elsewhere. The Shadow Corps in LotV has the whiff of Tal'darim on them as a result now, too. They're there just to provide a TvP matchup because there seems to be an inherent need for it even though the lore/story kind of makes it hard now to make it seem naturally occurring without gimmick.

I've always had mixed feelings with the UED but I don't agree they had no role in continuing the 3-way-fight you expect of Sc. I know this is debatable, but at the time of Sc1, the K-Sector Terrans were essentially intimated in the story as the weaksauce faction of the 3. Even though all factions suffered crushing blows, to me the Terrans always felt behind the 8-ball in any matchup with the other no matter how weak the other two were. The UED, as a concept, was the opportunity to give the Terrans a shot-in-the-arm in terms of power levels and some potential for antagonism (as you've noted in the past, you've felt Mengsk shouldn't be agressor against the Protoss or Zerg when he gained power). Sure, it was a little contrived and convenient but the UED potentially gave us a reason for us to sustain the core concept of the 3-way conflict that is supposed to be what Sc is about. The way it turned out was quite a bit of a hit-and-miss however (that they focused on Mengsk for the majority is justifiably disappointing and then just made to disappear in the end) but if nothing else, the UED have my kudos for having the potential of making the Terrans seem more "relevent" in the 3-way conflict.

I don't know about that. To me, the UED were a lot of wasted potential -- they served story purposes in BW, and then vanished. Now, if they were a presence meant to return again, and the pressure of their return was always on, that could be interesting. Then there's the sentiment that people prefer a Starcraft with no Earth in the picture and I understand that.

I get what you're saying, though. The UED did bring Terrans back to a more conflicted place. If it weren't for them, Mengsk would have allied with the Protoss far sooner, thus killing the tension and preventing Starcraft from living up to its premise. That, and it's an intriguing tragedy to watch everyone in the Sector fight all the wrong people, not realizing who the real bad guy is until it's too late -- and then the hybrids are there.

[Turalyon]

I'm directly stating that the time between missions was spent doing other things against the Confederacy, and other things in general.

How does that support the notion that the Confederacy still had enough power to be the major governing body after what happened on Tarsonis?

Is that really? My point was that the Confederacy existed to a subtle degree post their political defeat. Surely they aren't a true power anymore, that much is certain. However, their existence would be confined to two specific things: whatever small remnant groups felt like causing Mengsk trouble (note Duran's use of the term Confederate Resistance Forces), and the small groups involved in creating the hybrids. The latter group surely hid away while the former provided distraction from their existence. Or so I interpret.

Let's back up. We are talking about the notion of whether the Confederacy should have survived to the degree where they can still exert control over Terran affairs just like the Dominion has done after BW and purportedly will do to some degree after HotS. All you've said just supports the notion that the Confederate have no power to govern over Terrans affairs.

You're missing the point. Sure, the Confederacy can afford to lose those planets, but if they are the kind of people who are willing to throw away the fringe colonies, think about what kind of morals they have. What kind of things would they do on their prime planets, if they are those kinds of people? Surely they are doing things that would cause animosity in the general populace.

I'm probably missing the point because I'm unsure as to what you're getting at.

We know the Confeds are evil and have enemies, that's nothing new. Afterall, they made an example of Korhal (one of their favoured colonies) when they nuked it. The resulting formation of the SoK by Mengsk turned out to be the one enemy of theirs that eventually destroyed them and that was only because the Zerg happened to be around to be used. Otherwise, Mengsk would've just been like what Raynor was doing to the Dominion/Mengsk in WoL - doing stuff against the "evil government" but having no real effect against them such that they'd still sit effectively untouched and unchanged in the end. If Mengsk weren't around, the Confeds would have had it even easier.

....Uh....that's a separate campaign, right? I don't think I've played that.

What's a separate campaign? Me talking about Terrans having enough material to be make their own game or that the Zerg and Protoss have no real meaningful conflict against the Terrans in Rebel Yell (Episode I of Starcraft)? I'm assuming it's the latter.

When I say no "meaningful conflict" with the Zerg or the Protoss, I meant that the Zerg you fight (and the Protoss in one instant) are just mere obstacles to the real thematic conflict of Terrans against Terrans (SoK vs Confederacy). The missions that invove the Zerg as opposition serve to explore the conflict with the Confederacy rather than it is about exploring the Terran-Zerg dynamic. Likewise, the Protoss opposition in New Gettysburg is fairly inconsequential to the thematic relevance of the current story being told as it largely serves just to show the lengths to what Mengsk will go to in order to defeat his (Terran) enemy rather than say anything about Terran-Protoss relations.

To me, the UED were a lot of wasted potential -- they served story purposes in BW, and then vanished.

You have no arguements from me about how they actually turned out.

I get what you're saying, though. The UED did bring Terrans back to a more conflicted place. If it weren't for them, Mengsk would have allied with the Protoss far sooner, thus killing the tension and preventing Starcraft from living up to its premise. That, and it's an intriguing tragedy to watch everyone in the Sector fight all the wrong people, not realizing who the real bad guy is until it's too late -- and then the hybrids are there.

Not sure about the Mengsk and Protoss allying with each other being a solid, but yeah, the Terrans and Protoss are largely indifferent to each other at the worst (and friendly at best especially when it comes to Raynor) and have no real reason to fight each other now. As to "everyone fighting the wrong people and not figuring out who the real bad guy is", they already did this with Warcraft. Heh, "not Warcraft in space" indeed....

[Nissa]

How does that support the notion that the Confederacy still had enough power to be the major governing body after what happened on Tarsonis?

I don't know where you got that idea, but I never thought that.

Let's back up. We are talking about the notion of whether the Confederacy should have survived to the degree where they can still exert control over Terran affairs just like the Dominion has done after BW and purportedly will do to some degree after HotS. All you've said just supports the notion that the Confederate have no power to govern over Terrans affairs.

Did I ever say they should have governing over Terran affairs? The way the Confederacy was shown in SC implied that they were very secretive in nature, and Duran's activities implied that their survival would be more sinister than political.

I'm probably missing the point because I'm unsure as to what you're getting at.

We know the Confeds are evil and have enemies, that's nothing new. Afterall, they made an example of Korhal (one of their favoured colonies) when they nuked it. The resulting formation of the SoK by Mengsk turned out to be the one enemy of theirs that eventually destroyed them and that was only because the Zerg happened to be around to be used. Otherwise, Mengsk would've just been like what Raynor was doing to the Dominion/Mengsk in WoL - doing stuff against the "evil government" but having no real effect against them such that they'd still sit effectively untouched and unchanged in the end. If Mengsk weren't around, the Confeds would have had it even easier.

Lol. No, I'm saying that the Confederacy was ripe for overthrowing because if they're the sort of people who would throw worlds away, they would do likewise horrible things to their people on main worlds. Thus, they've made a lot of enemies on their worlds, because they're cruel enough. The difference between them and Mengsk was that Mengsk at least wanted people to think he was a good leader, so I imagine Mengsk undertook projects and sponsorships that would make him look like a great and glorious emperor. The Confederacy obviously cared nothing at all about its image, and would have been weaker as a result -- the outrage sparked by their indifference to the people under them is the primarily cause of rebellions against them.

What's a separate campaign? Me talking about Terrans having enough material to be make their own game or that the Zerg and Protoss have no real meaningful conflict against the Terrans in Rebel Yell (Episode I of Starcraft)? I'm assuming it's the latter.

Oh, I've never heard it called that.

When I say no "meaningful conflict" with the Zerg or the Protoss, I meant that the Zerg you fight (and the Protoss in one instant) are just mere obstacles to the real thematic conflict of Terrans against Terrans (SoK vs Confederacy). The missions that invove the Zerg as opposition serve to explore the conflict with the Confederacy rather than it is about exploring the Terran-Zerg dynamic. Likewise, the Protoss opposition in New Gettysburg is fairly inconsequential to the thematic relevance of the current story being told as it largely serves just to show the lengths to what Mengsk will go to in order to defeat his (Terran) enemy rather than say anything about Terran-Protoss relations.

Well, fair enough. The first missions were interesting, but they were also relevant to the universe at hand. They set up Kerrigan as the puppet of the swarm, established conflict that relates to the morality of the Protoss burning humans worlds, and established the key humans who would influence the Sector.

It worked because it was the first missions of all of Starcraft, to boot. When a writer introduces an all out war narrative, the most common type of introduction is smaller, and then things steadily grow larger in scale until the entire conflict comes into view. That is, we are introduced to characters of (then) small importance on a backwards colony, we meet up with the leader of a fringe group, and then things inflate into planetary battles. The reason why this works so well is that it's an introduction, and we're seeing how small decisions affected the great movements of future events. Thus, any future Terran activities can't simply be internal strife, it has to relate somehow to the greater events at hand.

Not sure about the Mengsk and Protoss allying with each other being a solid, but yeah, the Terrans and Protoss are largely indifferent to each other at the worst (and friendly at best especially when it comes to Raynor) and have no real reason to fight each other now. As to "everyone fighting the wrong people and not figuring out who the real bad guy is", they already did this with Warcraft. Heh, "not Warcraft in space" indeed....

I never played Warcraft. It just never interested me. But I can see Mengsk trying to be some great negotiator and establishing a cease fire. After all, he was willing to ally up for the final mission of BW, so if he wants it bad enough, he's certainly willing to put aside the past. Particularly since the Protoss technically helped him get into power.

[Turalyon]

Did I ever say they should have governing over Terran affairs?

I have no idea - that's why I reiterated the point again. Would've helped me qualify where you were coming from since this whole line of discussion was essentially heading in the direction of why the the Confederacy should get a free pass to stay in power under flimsy pretense because the Dominion gets multiple frees passes under flimsy pretenses as well.

No, I'm saying that the Confederacy was ripe for overthrowing because if they're the sort of people who would throw worlds away, they would do likewise horrible things to their people on main worlds. Thus, they've made a lot of enemies on their worlds, because they're cruel enough. The difference between them and Mengsk was that Mengsk at least wanted people to think he was a good leader, so I imagine Mengsk undertook projects and sponsorships that would make him look like a great and glorious emperor. The Confederacy obviously cared nothing at all about its image, and would have been weaker as a result -- the outrage sparked by their indifference to the people under them is the primarily cause of rebellions against them.

How do you know the Confederacy don't also use propaganda to maintain favour on their coreworlds? The public wouldn't have known the Confeds were using Psi-emitters since, on the surface, it'd just look like it's just the Zerg's fault. The things you attribute (above) to the Confederacy as being cause for an eventual overthrow regardless equally applies to Mengsk. Just because we don't see Mengsk experience a situation/do anything of the order like nuking Korhal doesn't mean he is not above doing other lesser but no less horrible things on his own people. We see how he oppresses people on Mar Sara in WoL - who's to say it's better or worse on the coreworlds. Also, since we don't get an idea what sort of oppression the Confeds commit on their coreworlds it's hard to say anything definitive about that either. And, just like Mengsk had Raynor as his most dangerous rebellion based threat in Sc2, the Confederacy had Mengsk's SoK. And, as Raynor proved ineffective at doing any significant damage against Mengsk's regime (the Media Blitz did nothing to Mengsk's power aside from him just being publicly embarrassed on TV), Mengsk would've also largely been ineffectual in doing anything longterm to the Confeds power were it not for the Zerg.

They set up Kerrigan as the puppet of the swarm, established conflict that relates to the morality of the Protoss burning humans worlds, and established the key humans who would influence the Sector.

It's actually quite funny when you talk about the relevance of Kerrigan becoming the puppet of the swarm since back then, the writers admitted that the idea of Infested Kerrigan was a late addition. This means that Kerrigan, at one point in the story's initial development, actually died at New Gettysburg! If that plot point had remained, the Terrans would've definitely become a non-factor in the the 3-way war.

The reason why this works so well is that it's an introduction, and we're seeing how small decisions affected the great movements of future events. Thus, any future Terran activities can't simply be internal strife, it has to relate somehow to the greater events at hand.

But I can see Mengsk trying to be some great negotiator and establishing a cease fire. After all, he was willing to ally up for the final mission of BW, so if he wants it bad enough, he's certainly willing to put aside the past. Particularly since the Protoss technically helped him get into power.

Rebel Yell was a fairly insulated campaign. Were it not for the conceit of Kerrigan's continuance, the Terrans would've been remained as bit players to the Zerg-Protoss conflict.

I suppose the ending of Rebel Yell is to set up Mengsk as a viable leader of Terrans and as a potential future threat to Protoss and Zerg but since you nixed the idea of him having any significant interaction with the other two (and/or propose a positive interaction with the Protoss), I can't see how you can still expect the Terrans to have more of a role in the 3-way conflict and not have reason to just focus on internal strife really.

I never played Warcraft. It just never interested me.

Yeah, you have. It's called Sc2.