Disrupter and its implications

[Shadow Archon]

Please relax and let's just converse.

Eh, sure. Thought you were commenting on the the current argument.

I'd disagree. Khas created the Khala. The Xel'naga didn't. Even if the Khala is based on Xel'naga knowledge, the Xel'naga certainly never taught anything like the Khala to the Protoss since the Protoss moved into individual diverse sects while the Xel'naga were teaching the Protoss things.

Is there anyone here in the Beta that can comment on if the Disruptor is run off a Protoss mind upload?

[Nissa]

Eh, sure. Thought you were commenting on the the current argument.

I'd disagree. Khas created the Khala. The Xel'naga didn't. Even if the Khala is based on Xel'naga knowledge, the Xel'naga certainly never taught anything like the Khala to the Protoss since the Protoss moved into individual diverse sects while the Xel'naga were teaching the Protoss things.

The manual makes it clear that Khas discovered the psionic link because of Xel'Naga writings, and if the Xel'Naga created the Protoss, they clearly brought about the ability of the Protoss to link. They wouldn't have called it the "Khala" (most likely, anyway), but that's simply a Protoss reference to a Xel'Nagan gift. And if the Xel'Naga created the link, surely they created principles of the link that are passed down through Khala teachings.

And no, the DT Saga version doesn't count, as it retcons the writings into artifacts. I highly doubt that Protoss who can't understand drawings would understand writings, anyway.

[Shadow Archon]

The manual makes it clear that Khas discovered the psionic link because of Xel'Naga writings,

Eh, no.

He discovered the Khaydarin Crystals used in their experiments.

The writings did not directly lead to him discovering the Link or creating the philosophy known as the Khala.

and if the Xel'Naga created the Protoss, they clearly brought about the ability of the Protoss to link.

The Xel'naga guided the evolution of thousands of species, and only one of them developed a psychic link.

It was partly chance that brought this ability about.

The Protoss evolved their link. The Xel'naga did not create it.

They may have helped the evolution, but that does not give them the credit of creating the psychic link. It is not something they could simply just create, otherwise the first race they came across would be modified to have it.

They wouldn't have called it the "Khala" (most likely, anyway), but that's simply a Protoss reference to a Xel'Nagan gift.

No, it's their language for "Path of a Ascension."

It is Khas theory which becomes a religion and philosophy on how to use the psychic link.

And if the Xel'Naga created the link, surely they created principles of the link that are passed down through Khala teachings.

This is based on?

The Xel'naga didn't create the link.

The Link came about from their meddling of the Protoss' DNA. It was created by chance.

The Xel'naga did not form any sort of guide on how to use it.

Otherwise, they would have taught the Protoss it in the first place preventing the Aeon of Strife from ever happening.

The Xel'naga did not create the Khala. Khas did, ending the Aeon of Strife.

It makes no sense if we assume the Xel'naga, the Great Teachers wrote everything down about how to use the Psychic Link, and merely never used this information at all.

It's silly.

And no, the DT Saga version doesn't count,

To me, it does.

as it retcons the writings into artifacts.

That's not a retcon.

"Writing" can be on giant blocks of stone that could be called artifacts.

The Rosetta Stone is such an artifact.

I highly doubt that Protoss who can't understand drawings would understand writings, anyway.

We're talking about Savassan, the man who taught his fellow Protoss Temlaa what the drawings were.

Remember, Khas was teaching others about drawings. You know, pictographs. One of the most earliest forms of language.

[Turalyon]

^ Nissa's comment about the "Khala having existed as long as the Protoss have" has just inadvertently backed up my previous point about the potential confusion of using the word "Khala" to refer to both the philosophy and psychic link. Based on the current definition, she's technically correct since whilst she actually means the psychic link when used in that above quote, the Khala is the psychic link so it therefore existed before it was created by Khas. Lovely.

As to the Xel'Naga creating the actual primal link, I'd actually have to support Shadow on this one. The manual says the Xel'Naga engineered many worlds for which life would grow and only came upon the Protoss when they were already using the link which they had naturally evolved. Now, one can say the Xel'Naga was responsible for the creation of the Protoss in broad terms, but they didn't specifically create the psychic link for the Protoss (as far as we know at any rate what with potential for retcons being possible). Then again, it says the Xel'Naga then guided the Protoss to "the state of total sentience and awareness". If they used the word "sentience" in the proper context and definition, as in feeling and perception on a subjective level, it could well be that the Xel'Naga did train them to use the psychic link more effectively since the purpose of the link is to allow the Protoss to "feel" each other and to work together communally. On the other hand, a lot of sci-fi writers use the word "sentience" incorrectly when what they really mean is "sapience" (wisdom). All animal life is sentient, but not all are sapient. Hard to know which they meant here.

As to the Khas and Xel'Naga writings, Khas only used their teachings to find, use and harness the energies of the Khaydarin crystals. It was only then did this allow him to access the psychic link. The writings only caused the rediscovery of the link through specific conditions, so we can't imply that the writings would always cause the discovery of the psychic link nor that this is evidence that the Xel'Naga created and knew how to use the link effectively.

Or use Tal'Darim High Templar to get around it.

They do have their Nerve Chords still.

Wouldn't Tal'Darim High Templar be impossible though? Sure, they'd be able to generate psionic effects but their powers would be uncontrolled since they don't have the discipline of the Khala philosophy (like when Adun tried to train the rogues). We can't have psi-storms randomly appearing with different sizes or potentially on your own troops in the game!

She was a teacher who taught children about the Khala.

Sure, but did it say anything about her specifically using the Khala philosophy to help control the powers of the Void? Maybe, being a teacher, she had a natural affinity in learning/picking up the Nerazim techniques in controlling the void. Not sure if this one particular case would also hold for all other Protoss though.

Of course, she also ended up created a Twilight Archon with her High Templar lover...so...

Given that Dark Templar can form Archons on their own, I have to assume that Archon warps (with or without Khalai adherents) have nothing to do with nor are they reliant on the Khala.

Maybe the Overmind's big attempt at assimilating the Protoss would be him trying to integrate himself into the psionic link using the Khaydarin crystals?

This is a theory that Visions of Khas has brought up (I had a similar theory back in the day but was about the Overmind tapping into the Psionic Matrix of Aiur and for a slightly different reason). He also used this theory to explain that silly psi-blade fizz-out that Fenix had.

Not for me. I'm used to that in my sci-fi, especially with the Protoss living over a thousand years. I don't think we've even seen a Protoss die of old age yet.

Oh, I was talking about a war lasting thousands of years being hard to believe (let alone millions) when it was just constrained to one planet. It's hard to believe the Protoss would be able to sustain total war for all of that time without managing to have a victor or wiping themselves out totally. I assume there must have been some lulls in order for it to last that long.

They've already stated that the Conclave built only three, and the Spear is the last one.

Makes you wonder what the hell destroyed the other two, huh?

Didn't know that tid-bit. Is it confirmed that the other two were destroyed or is just that they now only have access to the one currently? Anyways, given that the arkship is new lore, I'm sure that if they did say the other two were destroyed, they could reverse it at any time and chalk it up as the Conclave being "mistaken" about there being only 3 and/or that the others were destroyed.

[Nissa]

^ Nissa's comment about the "Khala having existed as long as the Protoss have" has just inadvertently backed up my previous point about the potential confusion of using the word "Khala" to refer to both the philosophy and psychic link. Based on the current definition, she's technically correct since whilst she actually means the psychic link when used in that above quote, the Khala is the psychic link so it therefore existed before it was created by Khas. Lovely.

Well, that's not quite what I meant. Yes, the link part of the Khala did exist, but so did at least some of the philosophies and rituals associated with it -- since the manual states that the link was once known and later believed to be lost, clearly there must have been some sort of ritual or mental exercise involved.

As to the Xel'Naga creating the actual primal link, I'd actually have to support Shadow on this one. The manual says the Xel'Naga engineered many worlds for which life would grow and only came upon the Protoss when they were already using the link which they had naturally evolved. Now, one can say the Xel'Naga was responsible for the creation of the Protoss in broad terms, but they didn't specifically create the psychic link for the Protoss (as far as we know at any rate what with potential for retcons being possible). Then again, it says the Xel'Naga then guided the Protoss to "the state of total sentience and awareness". If they used the word "sentience" in the proper context and definition, as in feeling and perception on a subjective level, it could well be that the Xel'Naga did train them to use the psychic link more effectively since the purpose of the link is to allow the Protoss to "feel" each other and to work together communally. On the other hand, a lot of sci-fi writers use the word "sentience" incorrectly when what they really mean is "sapience" (wisdom). All animal life is sentient, but not all are sapient. Hard to know which they meant here.

Huh, I must have missed that part of the manual. Well, even if the Xel'Naga didn't create the link, clearly they must have studied it (as you mention) and formed conclusions and additions to this link. My main point being that the Xel'Naga were major contributors to that which later became known as the Khala. After all, if Khas needed the Xel'Naga writings to discover the crystals/how to use them (ignoring the DT Saga retcons), clearly Khas and the other Protoss would be dependent on the Xel'Naga writings to use the link they believed to be lost.

[Shadow Archon]

^ Nissa's comment about the "Khala having existed as long as the Protoss have" has just inadvertently backed up my previous point about the potential confusion of using the word "Khala" to refer to both the philosophy and psychic link. Based on the current definition, she's technically correct since whilst she actually means the psychic link when used in that above quote, the Khala is the psychic link so it therefore existed before it was created by Khas. Lovely.

I'd rather go by the term Primal Link to refer to the original one.

It's not really the Khala until the Protoss use the link with Khas' philosophy.

The link's affect on Protoss society is fundamentally different during both time periods.

So, I'm only thinking of the link after the Aeon of Strife as the Khala.

Wouldn't Tal'Darim High Templar be impossible though? Sure, they'd be able to generate psionic effects but their powers would be uncontrolled since they don't have the discipline of the Khala philosophy (like when Adun tried to train the rogues). We can't have psi-storms randomly appearing with different sizes or potentially on your own troops in the game!

Hm...Why not?

How about you make them suicide nuke units, with an extra ability or two?

Sure, but did it say anything about her specifically using the Khala philosophy to help control the powers of the Void? Maybe, being a teacher, she had a natural affinity in learning/picking up the Nerazim techniques in controlling the void. Not sure if this one particular case would also hold for all other Protoss though.

I'd have to re-read the story just to make sure.

Given that Dark Templar can form Archons on their own, I have to assume that Archon warps (with or without Khalai adherents) have nothing to do with nor are they reliant on the Khala.

Eh...

So, what's the technical differences between Archons, Dark Archons, and Twilight Archons?

Is it all just a percentage of Void energy?

You also have Tassadar in Heroes of the Storm able to become an Archon himself, and he can revert back into his normal form as well. Sure, you might just ignore that, but I thought that was a neat ability for a very powerful Protoss to have.

This all makes me wish we have a story dedicated to explaining when the first Archon was made, and how everything about them works.

This is a theory that Visions of Khas has brought up (I had a similar theory back in the day but was about the Overmind tapping into the Psionic Matrix of Aiur and for a slightly different reason).

Hmm...

They haven't talked about the Psionic Matrix in forever, have they?

How does that even work anymore? Do they now have one on Shakuras or do they still use Aiur's?

I'm guessing the Psionic Matrix is the Khaydarin Crystals all being connected to each other, but you would think they'd talk about one of the main aspects that explain a lot about Protoss base building. That's what Pylons and Nexi are there for, to channel the Matrix.

He also used this theory to explain that silly psi-blade fizz-out that Fenix had.

I actually always thought the Hydra was a Hunter Killer and that they had psi-inhibiting abilities. Based on how the Hydra does this odd head movement right before the blades cut out. Sure, that's just wild mass guessing on my part with no basis.

Too bad that never actually was talked about in a Q&A.

Oh, I was talking about a war lasting thousands of years being hard to believe (let alone millions) when it was just constrained to one planet. It's hard to believe the Protoss would be able to sustain total war for all of that time without managing to have a victor or wiping themselves out totally. I assume there must have been some lulls in order for it to last that long.

Lulls and probably how they were cave men at the end of the period.

Asking how long the Aeon of Strife lasted would be a good question for blizzcon.

Didn't know that tid-bit. Is it confirmed that the other two were destroyed or is just that they now only have access to the one currently?

Last I checked, it was pretty vague.

I forget the exact statement, but the other two were simply gone.

Anyways, given that the arkship is new lore, I'm sure that if they did say the other two were destroyed, they could reverse it at any time and chalk it up as the Conclave being "mistaken" about there being only 3 and/or that the others were destroyed.

Or, you could have the Protoss build more in the future.

I'd really love to see the space-dock they used to build the Arkships.

[Turalyon]

Yes, the link part of the Khala did exist, but so did at least some of the philosophies and rituals associated with it -- since the manual states that the link was once known and later believed to be lost, clearly there must have been some sort of ritual or mental exercise involved.

The manual didn't mention any philosophies or rituals (beyond what a rudimentary tribal society can think up of that is) that were required for the Protoss primal psychic link. It was described initially as "a very complex method of instinctive telepathy", which implies the early Protoss didn't have to "work at it" in order to use it. Once they lost it and forgot how to use it, they needed someone like Khas to show them how to get it back. The reason they devolved into the Aeon of Strife was because they had no unifying philosophy to stop their rising individual egos (which the Xel'Naga were responsible for) from conflicting with each other or to keep them on track using the link. The Khala philosophy was developed as a "rigid system of behaviour" to encourage the use and maintenance of the psychic link and to prevent incidents like the Aeon of Strife from occurring again.

Huh, I must have missed that part of the manual. Well, even if the Xel'Naga didn't create the link, clearly they must have studied it (as you mention) and formed conclusions and additions to this link. My main point being that the Xel'Naga were major contributors to that which later became known as the Khala. After all, if Khas needed the Xel'Naga writings to discover the crystals/how to use them (ignoring the DT Saga retcons), clearly Khas and the other Protoss would be dependent on the Xel'Naga writings to use the link they believed to be lost.

It's sketchy. There isn't much to imply the Xel'Naga had any direct involvement with the link at all aside from the fact that they were actually responsible for making the Protoss lose their link because they "pushed their evolution too far". They took the Protoss severing of their link as their last and greatest sign that the Protoss were irreversibly broken. Because of this, if the Xel'Naga really did know about the link and how to use it, they wouldn't have abandoned them or at the least would've done something to try and help the Protoss restore their link and not just watch them sever it.

As to the writings that Khas found, as I mentioned before, they are not the direct cause of the link being found. The teachings were about Khaydarin crystals, which Khas then used to channel energy to then access the link. An
The "teachings" were just the lit match to the dynamite that is the Khaydarin Crystals, whose energies blew apart the rocks blocking the path to the destination that is the psychic link. One can't say the lit match (the analagous "teachings") was the direct cause of rocks being blown away to grant passage (access to the link) generally-speaking since it only occurs under very specific conditions. Therefore, this is not proof that the Xel'Naga knew how to use or access the Protoss psychic link.

I'd rather go by the term Primal Link to refer to the original one.

It's not really the Khala until the Protoss use the link with Khas' philosophy.

The link's affect on Protoss society is fundamentally different during both time periods.

So, I'm only thinking of the link after the Aeon of Strife as the Khala.

We both know this but it still doesn't make it any less confusing. It's like what I was trying to say before. They're synonymous... but not before a certain time period... which would mean they're not really synonymous... but they are, it's just a difference between then and now. Confusion/cognitive dissonance occurs because something being told and understood as being synonymous does not inherently come with the implication that it were ever not synonymous at any other time.

Hm...Why not?

How about you make them suicide nuke units, with an extra ability or two?

The Psi-storm requires the Khala in order for it to be directed and focused on a certain spot. I'm not saying you can't have them, it's just that they're abilities would have to have some chaotic/random nature to it. This would be annoying because one doesn't want to target an enemy with a spell only for it to not work as directed or expected.

So, what's the technical differences between Archons, Dark Archons, and Twilight Archons?

Is it all just a percentage of Void energy?

You're guess is as good as mine. I would have to start assuming that the Khala (both the philosophy and the psychic link) is not the actual and/or only psionic energy source. I really have no idea.

You also have Tassadar in Heroes of the Storm able to become an Archon himself, and he can revert back into his normal form as well. Sure, you might just ignore that, but I thought that was a neat ability for a very powerful Protoss to have.

May have to do with him being able to use both source of psionic energy? There's no other Protoss like him (apart from Adun I hear), so I guess he can be granted the special power of Archon warp as required.

They haven't talked about the Psionic Matrix in forever, have they?

How does that even work anymore? Do they now have one on Shakuras or do they still use Aiur's?

I'm guessing the Psionic Matrix is the Khaydarin Crystals all being connected to each other, but you would think they'd talk about one of the main aspects that explain a lot about Protoss base building. That's what Pylons and Nexi are there for, to channel the Matrix.

I've always thought of it as a property of the planet itself but yeah, it just seems to be taken for granted and needs some exploration. I'm not even sure where Protoss buildings (especially Nerazim ones) come from anymore ever since Aiur was abandoned.

I actually always thought the Hydra was a Hunter Killer and that they had psi-inhibiting abilities. Based on how the Hydra does this odd head movement right before the blades cut out. Sure, that's just wild mass guessing on my part with no basis.

Too bad that never actually was talked about in a Q&A.

I could never figure out a lore reason for it either. I just saw it as dramatic way to demonstrate Fenix's mind and focus wavering in the face of impossible odds.

Lulls and probably how they were cave men at the end of the period.

I never got the initial feeling they were cavemen since how could a legend form about them devastating the greater landmasses of Aiur if they only had sticks and rocks? Eh, I'm not fussed eitherway

Last I checked, it was pretty vague.

I forget the exact statement, but the other two were simply gone.

Well then, that just opens them up to a later appearance as required I suppose.

Or, you could have the Protoss build more in the future.

I'd really love to see the space-dock they used to build the Arkships.

It'd be tough ask given their current situation and how ravaged they are but given that anything could happen, I already had that option in mind, too. The dock would probably be in some yet-to-be-revealed secret or misplaced location.

[Nissa]

Well, Tura, your views on the Khala and its relation are fine, but I've suddenly realized that perhaps our perspectives on the matter are pointless. Given that the DT Saga has retconned significant parts, and LotV is bound to do the same, it's all pretty much academic at this point. That, and we have no way of determining what parts of the Khala Khas originated or learned from the Xel'Nagan writings.

Besides, how do you know the writings were only about the Khaydarin crystals? If the Xel'Naga wrote about the crystals, clearly they had at least a little idea as to their use. They saw the link the proto-Protoss had (because naturally they'd have to study them to change them into Protoss), and if the ancient 'Toss had that link, then the Xel'Naga had to have known that the crystals were involved somehow.

[Zoar]

Khaydarin Crystals were used by the Xel'naga when manipulating the DNA of their various project races.

"Khas, having studied the teachings of the archaic, forbidden teachings of the Xel'naga, unearthed ancient, monolithic artifacts known as the Khaydarin Crystals. The Crystals, left behind the Xel'naga, were fundamental in facilitating their proto-genetic experiments. Khas was able to channel the primal energies of the Crystals through himself, allowing him to access the primordial, psychic bond of his race."

Both Protoss and Zerg, as products of the Xel'naga, react naturally to the energies of the Khaydarin Crystals.

"In an attempt the discern their primary quarry, the Protoss focused the energies through the minds of the tiny probes. The Protoss were shocked to discover that the alien probes responded quickly and naturally to the powerful energies of the Crystals. Their shock was garnered from the fact that only creatures born of the Xel'Naga's proto-genetics could properly process the energies of the great Crystals."

[Shadow Archon]

We both know this but it still doesn't make it any less confusing. It's like what I was trying to say before. They're synonymous... but not before a certain time period... which would mean they're not really synonymous... but they are, it's just a difference between then and now. Confusion/cognitive dissonance occurs because something being told and understood as being synonymous does not inherently come with the implication that it were ever not synonymous at any other time.

Well, when you do talk about a word that changed over time, there is bound to be confusion with it.

Especially when we keep jumping back and forth between the periods where the word changed.

The Psi-storm requires the Khala in order for it to be directed and focused on a certain spot.

Yes.

I'm not saying you can't have them, it's just that they're abilities would have to have some chaotic/random nature to it. This would be annoying because one doesn't want to target an enemy with a spell only for it to not work as directed or expected.

It wouldn't have to be chaotic or random.

The Nerazim on Aiur never set off a psionic storm when they were living normal lives. Only when they were trying to use their powers in new ways.

So, having a Tal'darim suicide Psi-Stormer could be an interesting unique unit.

You're guess is as good as mine. I would have to start assuming that the Khala (both the philosophy and the psychic link) is not the actual and/or only psionic energy source. I really have no idea.

Well, there is the Void, and there's the Psi that humans use.

Tal'Darim have been stated by WoG that they don't use the Void or the Khala, and yet, they have those funky green Archons in the campaign.

Of course, the Tal'Darim also must have Khalai and Nerazim brainwashed into their ranks given the tech they display.

I've always thought of it as a property of the planet itself but yeah, it just seems to be taken for granted and needs some exploration. I'm not even sure where Protoss buildings (especially Nerazim ones) come from anymore ever since Aiur was abandoned.

IIRC, they've stated that the Protoss have multiple industrial planets beyond just Aiur. So, that's likely where some of them come from.

Nerazim had to start their industry from just a Xel'naga worldship, so they probably have a big infrastructure on Shakuras that supports the Protoss war machine.

I never got the initial feeling they were cavemen since how could a legend form about them devastating the greater landmasses of Aiur if they only had sticks and rocks?

...Psychic cave men?

Honestly, you could argue that the DTS did not retcon the past lore about them having tech pre-Aeon of Strife.

There's one scene that implies they don't have that sophistication in Firstborn, but it's only an implication. It doesn't outright state they don't have starships and what not. It just has them use simple language and Protoss beat another one to death with a rock.

Of course, stoning happens even in the modern day, and they do call the Worldship a vessel, so...

*shrug*

I can ignore that one scene from Firstborn anyways. It's not like it changes the plot much given it has no bearing on Savassan and Temlaa.

Well then, that just opens them up to a later appearance as required I suppose.

It would be pretty cheap in my opinion to do that.

It'd be tough ask given their current situation and how ravaged they are but given that anything could happen, I already had that option in mind, too. The dock would probably be in some yet-to-be-revealed secret or misplaced location.

Well, they would have to have somewhere to find the Spear in the first place, and explain why such a location was unknown/hidden as it didn't come to Aiur's aid in SC1 or in Brood War.