Disrupter and its implications

[Nissa]

What?

It totally still has religious and political implications. It goes over the events with the Judicators and the original Dark Templar, along with the political and religious issues that contains.

Wrong. It went over the time period, yes, but not any political/religious issues. I think it may have included one or two mentions of the Xel'Naga being god-like, and a reference to some animal they sacrificed to, but that's it.

They did not mention --
- What gods the 'Toss believe in
- What Dark Templar beliefs are
- Why the Protoss caste system came into play
- Who decided what tribe gets to be which caste
- Why the Dark Templar decided that the Khala was so bad they had to amputate part of their body.
- Why the other Protoss listened to the Judicator if they were such idiots (seriously, their portrayal sucked).
- What sort of religious services existed post-Khala.

All the DT saga did describe was how Protoss were dumber than cavemen, and all the parts of the DT/Khala split that we already knew before. The crystals were not political or religious in nature. They were stones that did stuff. That's all.

Uh, that was in the manual too.

So? The problem wasn't the introduction of the crystals. The problem was that the crystals were nothing more than magical macguffins that just made 'Toss smarter. They alone cannot explain what the Khala is, what it means to the Protoss, or why the deep set cultural divide between the two versions of 'Toss came about. The DT Saga was badly written, particularly when it came to Protoss backstory.

Because they cut their nerve chords. That's been a staple since the original Starcraft.

Proof positive you didn't read my post. The fact that DT can't join the Khala was my entire point. The DT Saga allowed humans to experience the Khala, despite humans not having nerve cords either. It's a contradiction.

they still have psionic individuals that can do crap.

Their biology's requirements for psionics is completely different, so there is no reason to assume they need nerve chords at all.

Jake was doing all the work there anyways. The mini-Khala was him broadcasting everyone's memories and feelings to those around him.

I didn't say humans couldn't do psionics. I said they couldn't join the Khala.

DT have no nerve cords.
Humans have no nerve cords.
DT cannot join Khala
Humans can join Khala?

Logical failure. The fact that a Protoss was in Jake's mind makes no difference whatsoever. Because the 'Toss in his head had no body, and therefore no nerve cords.

And unlike a lot of the people on this site, I enjoy SC2's story and all but one of the books.

All but one? Which one was that?

Eh?

It doesn't bluntly state it.

But it doesn't bluntly state the opposite either.

THAT'S my entire point. You cannot say that the Khala is only a psionic link, because the manual doesn't say it's only a psionic link. Thus, you cannot quote the manual to prove to everyone your point.

To me, it directly implies that it is a psychic link in which the Shelak can expand the Judicator's knowledge on the Xel'naga by sharing what they learned. I don't get anything about it being a discipline from this statement.

If you say so. The word "through" implies discipline, however. Like -- "Through his years of technical experience, he could recognize what was wrong with the car."

If it's the second one, then the manual supports the Khala being a psychic link.

If it's the first one, it still is the manual supporting that the Khala is not just a discipline or philosophy, but an actual tangible physical thing which can be directly quantified.

By the DTS and WoG, both of these separate conclusions are confirmed to be true.

If it comes from a novel, I don't listen to it. The novels were terribly written, and often ignored or mishandled canon characters and ideas.

[Shadow Archon]

Wrong. It went over the time period, yes, but not any political/religious issues. I think it may have included one or two mentions of the Xel'Naga being god-like, and a reference to some animal they sacrificed to, but that's it.

So, the Khala being a religious movement, Khas being the Khala's prophet, the Khala leading to the creation of the Castes, leading to the political rule of the Judicators...and so on and so forth...don't count?

They did not mention --
- What gods the 'Toss believe in

The Xel'naga were their gods, and they even got their own Protoss name: Ihan-rii.

- Why the Dark Templar decided that the Khala was so bad they had to amputate part of their body.

Individuality. That's pretty clear in the chapter with the talk between Adun and Razsagal.

- What Dark Templar beliefs are

We're talking about the religious implications of the Khala, not the Void though, and we look at the origin of the Dark Templar on Aiur through the eyes of a Preserver. We don't know what the first years on Shakuras were like because none of the main characters were privy to that knowledge, so as consequence, that was beyond the confines of the novel's plot.

The focus is on the Dark Templars' origin, why the gulf between them and the rest of the Protoss exist, and how they are currently co-existing.

- Why the Protoss caste system came into play

Over two millennia ago, the great Khas, as he had become known—“He who brings order”—had rediscovered the profound link all protoss could have with one another. He had drafted a series of rules on how best to navigate this intimate space, and the collection of rules and the emotional and mental link itself had become known as the Khala. Jake knew that Khas had had another name, but it was lost to everyone but the preservers now, and besides, what Khas had done was more important than who he had been before such a significant discovery.
----------------------------------------
Part of the dictates of the Khala had advised a caste system, with various tribes falling into one of the three castes of judicator, templar, and khalai. The vast majority of protoss tribes were collected under the khalai, who were the artisans, scientists, and builders of their people. This caste was as valued as the others, for without them, there would be no infrastructure, no development in culture and science and art. Their contributions were vital.

The templar, of which Adun and Jake were a part, was the warrior caste. The templar tribes were those who had great physical prowess or agility, or tended toward sound military insight and strategy. In the early days of the Khala, they fought to protect the newly unified protoss culture from those who did not agree with the tenets, or were too afraid to do so. It was, Jake mused, an indication of how relatively primitive the protoss were then. It did not take long for all the protoss to eventually realize that the only way to peace and prosperity was through the Khala. There could be no hatred then, for even if you disagreed with someone, you felt him as yourself. Once this harmony was achieved, the pro-toss society flourished quickly and healthily, and the templar were free to focus on protecting their people, at first from the fearsome creatures who prowled Aiur, and later from hostile alien beings they encountered while settling their colonies.

The third and final caste, the judicators, were the elders and statesmen, the governing body of the protoss. Their highest members were known as the Conclave. This was a select group of elders, chosen for their wisdom and knowledge of the Khala and a passionate adherence to its rules. Some of them were protoss whom Jake deeply admired and respected. Others were … not. Nonetheless, Adun and the other templar answered with unquestioning obedience to the Conclave. Which was why Jake was surprised to note Adun‟s discomfort at having been summoned to appear before them at the Great Forum, the Khor-shakal, the seat of Aiur‟s government.

Khas did.

- Who decided what tribe gets to be which caste

It seems to vary on the individual. While some tribes have a majority within one caste, it seems that you chosen to be in a caste based on your skills and talents.

The quote was provided above.

- Why the other Protoss listened to the Judicator if they were such idiots (seriously, their portrayal sucked).

I don't see how.

While they are portrayed as arrogant, they aren't idiots.

Their fears justify their plan of action against the Dark Templar, because they fear it could possibly bring back the Aeon of Strife.

- What sort of religious services existed post-Khala.

The Road of Remembrance for one.

Zoranis had been popular with his people. Thousands had turned out for this solemn ceremony, lining the Road of Remembrance for almost its entire length. The Road of Remembrance led from the provincial capital of Antioch, wound for several kilometers west, and ended at the ruins of an ancient xel‟naga temple. Broken steps led up to a flat surface with a pool that collected rainwater.

Here, the honored dead were ritually bathed, dressed for burial, left for a day‟s cycle under the watchful care of loved ones so that the sun, moon, and stars would shine upon them, and then laid into the earth for their final rest. While the ritual itself was ancient, performed by each tribe even back during the Aeon of Strife, the Road had come into existence only after the protoss had embraced the Khala.

The Road of Remembrance was a physical symbol of the Path of Ascension. As all protoss were joined in the Khala, so now all veterans and protoss of note, no matter their caste, were given the honor of traveling the Road of Remembrance. Jake had seen artisans, scientists, templar, and members of the Conclave alike being borne on a floating dais, a stasis field surrounding their bodies with a halo.

All the DT saga did describe was how Protoss were dumber than cavemen,

Because the first book showed us the equivalent of Protoss cavemen who had innate psionic abilities they could rely on without the need to develop technology like humans did.

Hardly a big deal.

The rest of the novels talk about the Protoss after they have developed FTL and colonized multiple planets.

They aren't stupid, they're smarter than normal humans.

and all the parts of the DT/Khala split that we already knew before.

It gives it more details and focuses on Adun's involvement.

The crystals were not political or religious in nature. They were stones that did stuff. That's all.

So? The crystals are not the sum of what the Books go over.

So? The problem wasn't the introduction of the crystals. The problem was that the crystals were nothing more than magical macguffins that just made 'Toss smarter.

They don't make them smarter...

They got them past their old vendettas through racial empathy.

They alone cannot explain what the Khala is, what it means to the Protoss, or why the deep set cultural divide between the two versions of 'Toss came about.

And they don't.

The books do that.

The DT Saga was badly written, particularly when it came to Protoss backstory.

Proof positive you didn't read my post. The fact that DT can't join the Khala was my entire point. The DT Saga allowed humans to experience the Khala, despite humans not having nerve cords either. It's a contradiction.

I did read it, and no it isn't a contradiction.

It wasn't the Khala. It was a mini-Khala that worked only over a short range.

Humans don't have nerve chords in the first place which is one of the biological parts of a Toss that lets them do their psionics. Humans can still do psionics.

Ergo, nothing is contradicted. The unique aspect of their biologies has to be taken into an account, and we have no idea what that entails with human psionics and Protoss psionics.

I didn't say humans couldn't do psionics. I said they couldn't join the Khala.

Well, they didn't.

Jake's mini-Khala isn't the same as the Khala. The scale is such smaller and was being maintained only by him.

DT have no nerve cords.
Humans have no nerve cords.
DT cannot join Khala
Humans can join Khala?

Logical failure.

No, you're having a logical failure.

You're assuming Dark Templar are equivalent with Humans here.

Human =/= Protoss.

Human psionics =/= Protoss Psionics.

Human Mini-Khala =/= Protoss Khala.

Thus, Human requirements for joining their "Khala" =/= Protoss requirements for joining their Khala.

There are so many different factors involved to point your generalizing has no basis.

The fact that a Protoss was in Jake's mind makes no difference whatsoever.

The hell it does.

Because the 'Toss in his head had no body, and therefore no nerve cords.

Nerve cords are a requirement for Protoss. Not for humans.

All but one? Which one was that?

Shadow of the Xel'naga.

THAT'S my entire point. You cannot say that the Khala is only a psionic link, because the manual doesn't say it's only a psionic link. Thus, you cannot quote the manual to prove to everyone your point.

Is this a strawman?

I never said the Khala is only a psychic link.

It's a philosophy, a religion, a mind-set, and a psychic link.

I'm quoting the manual to show that it doesn't contradict the books by what it calls the Khala.

If you say so. The word "through" implies discipline, however. Like -- "Through his years of technical experience, he could recognize what was wrong with the car."

Agree to disagree.

Both interpretations seem valid to me.

Hell, both can be valid at the same time as well.

If it comes from a novel, I don't listen to it. The novels were terribly written, and often ignored or mishandled canon characters and ideas.

There's no reason to discuss what's in the novels if you just ignore it.

And given I will quote the novels alot...

[Nissa]

So, the Khala being a religious movement, Khas being the Khala's prophet, the Khala leading to the creation of the Castes, leading to the political rule of the Judicators...and so on and so forth...don't count?

Of course not. Because they weren't in the book. In what way is a shiny stone "religious" if there is no god, no spirituality, or any form of ceremony? The book failed to explain any religious connotations. Therefore the stones are not religious in nature, or if they are, they are from other sources, not the DT Saga.

That, and the book NEVER explains how shiny crystals lead to the formation of the Judicator. Homeboy finds the crystal, touches it, then fast forward ~2000 years later and the Judicator are there. It's not in the book, so it doesn't count.

The Xel'naga were their gods, and they even got their own Protoss name: Ihan-rii.

Doesn't mean the book adequately described it. The Khaydarin crystals were discovered, and from that point on there is no reference to the Xel'Naga being gods. That, and a fancy name does not a god make.

Individuality. That's pretty clear in the chapter with the talk between Adun and Razsagal.

But that's just a label, isn't it? The Khala is never shown to eliminate individuality. Not in the DT Saga, nor in Starcraft itself (Legacy of the Void aside, depending on where they go with it). That, and the DT's motives are never explained. Why did they feel the need to sever their nerve cords? In the books, only the Conclave ever gives a mention for why the DT did what they did, and their perspective hardly counts. No Dark Templar character ever once explained why they felt the need to hurt themselves over it, or if they had any other options.

In other words, we only know the decision was over individuality because other sources confirmed this. The DT Saga only explains the motivations of the DT through people who were not themselves DT, and it wasn't much of an explanation at that.

We're talking about the religious implications of the Khala, not the Void though, and we look at the origin of the Dark Templar on Aiur through the eyes of a Preserver. We don't know what the first years on Shakuras were like because none of the main characters were privy to that knowledge, so as consequence, that was beyond the confines of the novel's plot.

The focus is on the Dark Templars' origin, why the gulf between them and the rest of the Protoss exist, and how they are currently co-existing.

Well and good, but this is supposedly the Dark Templar Saga, yet the book is completely focused on Khala Protoss. It does not adequately explain the group it was labelled to describe. There are only two DTs of significance in the entire dang trilogy (Zeratul, Mohander) as Raszagal's appearance was little better than a cameo. No Dark Templar appears at all in the first book, either in person or in flashback.

You speak of "void" -- something the book never ONCE mentions. The book doesn't explain anything about the Nerazim. The only unique detail given in the book was the fact that DTs use crystals to store memory. That is the sum total of new information garnered on the Dark Templar.

Khas did.

Yes, Khas did. But he's not Christie Golden. Khas is here summarizing what happened -- he is not showing it. We don't see the tribes coming to agreements, or deciding on who will become a leader. This is insignificant information, particularly since it comes from Khas, and not a preserver. In any case, we are getting a terse summary from a person who wasn't there, not a deep, interesting flashback from Christie Golden herself.

Besides, the Judicator are clearly given higher authority than the other 'Toss. You can call them the eldest and wisest, if you like, but the book goes out of its way to describe the Ara tribe (a Judicator one) as unnecessarily violent. If this is the case, they should have become Templar. And if they somehow got the Judicator job, why wouldn't the other tribes object to their violence, or even just the idea of one tribe leading all the rest? Particularly since they'd been warring for an eon? Wouldn't it be wiser if a Conclave of all tribes were set to rule? After all, in family based divisions (that is, tribes), there's no particular reason why any one tribe would be smarter than the rest.

The only rational explanation, which I'd assumed before reading the book, is that the Khala was a set of writings passed down through the Xel'Naga which explained to the Protoss how they were meant to live. Now, if the tribes were convinced with the Xel'Naga's power, they could be convinced to let a couple specific tribes become the Judicator. If the crystals are simply things that make your brains get bigger (or whatever) there's no particular reason for one or two tribes to get all the authority.

It seems to vary on the individual. While some tribes have a majority within one caste, it seems that you chosen to be in a caste based on your skills and talents.

The third and final caste, the judicators, were the elders and statesmen, the governing body of the protoss. Their highest members were known as the Conclave.

Gee, sure sounds like individual skills and talents to me....

In the games, the Judicator always were the leaders of the Protoss. Tassadar stated, "The Judicator have long since steered the actions of the Templar to their own ends." The Judicator could not do this if they lacked the authority. That, and the Ara/Shelak tribes have always been portrayed as Judicator.

I don't see how.

While they are portrayed as arrogant, they aren't idiots.

*laughs* Yes they are. They attacked the Dark Templar right as they'd finally managed to exile the bunch, jeopardizing their own plans to pretend the DT never existed. Retarded. Besides, arrogance becomes ignorance over time.

The Road of Remembrance for one.

Oh, pffft, only that one. It's simply a funeral rite anyway, with no bearing on the function of Protoss religion or anything that happens later in the story. It's a setpiece, hardly a cultural description.

Because the first book showed us the equivalent of Protoss cavemen who had innate psionic abilities they could rely on without the need to develop technology like humans did.

Hardly a big deal.

The rest of the novels talk about the Protoss after they have developed FTL and colonized multiple planets.

They aren't stupid, they're smarter than normal humans.

....A person excited over a drawing in the dirt is not smarter than a normal human. While the novels might have mentioned what happened to the 'Toss afterwards, they didn't show them developing FTL or colonizing multiple planets. And that doesn't change the fact that the caveman parts were stupid.

So? The crystals are not the sum of what the Books go over.

My original point was that the crystals are a cheap macguffin explanation for the Khala. They are simple a thing that does something, not a political system, a religion, or some kind of lifestyle guide from the Xel'Naga. They fail to explain sufficiently what the Khala is and why it resulted in the society we see in Starcraft.

They don't make them smarter...

They got them past their old vendettas through racial empathy.

When Savassan touched the crystals, he was given a mental boost from the experience. Clearly the crystals did something to his mind which resulted in him being more intelligent.

And they don't.

The books do that.

No they don't. They just rehash what we already know about the 'Toss, without adding much in the way of new detail.

I did read it, and no it isn't a contradiction.

It wasn't the Khala. It was a mini-Khala that worked only over a short range.

Humans don't have nerve chords in the first place which is one of the biological parts of a Toss that lets them do their psionics. Humans can still do psionics.

Ergo, nothing is contradicted. The unique aspect of their biologies has to be taken into an account, and we have no idea what that entails with human psionics and Protoss psionics.

*facepalms* By that logic, the Dark Templar can't do psionics at all. Either that, or they can create their own mini-Khala at will.

Look, let me put it this way. Psionic humans and Dark Templar are in the same boat, so far as the Khala is concerned. Both groups have psionic power, but neither have nerve cords. Thus, neither of them can create a Khala, mini- or otherwise, without the proper appendages.

There are so many different factors involved to point your generalizing has no basis.

*facepalms* My "generalization" is based on the logical fact that the Khala requires nerve appendages. Your assumption that human psionics does not equal Protoss psionics is just that -- an assumption. It is stated nowhere in the book or Starcraft lore that there is a difference. Neither humans nor Dark Templar have what it takes to join a Khala.

Nerve cords are a requirement for Protoss. Not for humans.

Says who?

Shadow of the Xel'naga.

Oh good, if you liked that book, I was going to be sorely disappointed.

[Turalyon]

Except, that every single Protoss never uses the words Communal Link. They refer to the psychic link as the Khala.

True, but only cemented in the EU. My original position was based on the source game and manual where it's quite clear that they are not the same thing. Hence my questioning of the definition of the Khala being changed later in the books/EU.

But it never once says the Khala "is not" the link, so there is no problem, so there is nothing to trump.

The manual itself mentions the Khala is a religion and a philosophy. That doesn't mean it can't also refer to the psychic link itself, which many Protoss do talk about by calling it the Khala.

This is an argument from ignorance especially considering when one is restricted to only having the source manual (which describes it definitively already) to rely on. I've gone through the transcripts and the games (Sc1 and BW) never refer to the Khala as being the communal link directly so therefore I have to rely on the manual's description of it. Sure, you can interpret and infer that they've always been the same all you like but you have to realise that's hindsight bias based on the knowledge that all the recent stuff say they are the same.

If multiple sources state one thing, they're right.

I know the later EU trumps it because all of it says they're the same thing and its considered canon - that's not my point.

It doesn't outright say the link is the Khala, but it doesn't have to since tons of other sources do and nothing contradicts that. This is neither a retcon or an inconsistency. While the Khala is not simply the psychic link, the psychic link in the modern day is called the Khala.

Back to your usual tricks, I see... Every time you make these type of arguments, I'm always reminded of Orwell's 1984 and doublethink. To not think that's there some degree of retroactive continuity going on here is borderline insane troll logic, so there's nothing that I can really do but just nod my head and agree with you to avoid a headache. I'll think I'll leave this quote from the book, so that the people who can, will enjoy the irony:

"Oceania was at war with Eurasia and in alliance with Eastasia. In no public or private utterance was it ever admitted that the three powers had at any time been grouped along different lines. Actually, as Winston well knew, it was only four years since Oceania had been at war with Eastasia and in alliance with Eurasia. But that was merely a piece of furtive knowledge, which he happened to possess because his memory was not satisfactorily under control. Officially the change of partners had never happened. Oceania was at war with Eurasia: therefore Oceania had always been at war with Eurasia."

The beauty about words is that they can have multiple definitions.

To you that's like saying good is bad and bad is good, right?

Also, according to the manual, the Khala is not just a religion or philosophy, but a psychic progression. So, it's not merely metaphorical and has practical application.

Who said that philosophies don't have practical applications? I certainly didn't. It's a moot point to make regardless since I already said that the Khala is a means to use and maintain the psychic link. This does not necessarily mean they are the same. I'm not denying your right to reinterpret that it actually is though.

And honestly, this statement makes much more sense if you assume Khala = psychic link.

There's a bit of confirmation bias on your part here since it could also still make sense if you replaced "the Khala" (in that quote) with "their religion" or "Khas' philosophy". Because, you know, the Khala is "primarily meant to define a rigid system of behaviour".

If Protoss can use the word Khala to mean "Psychic Link," so can I.

Never said you couldn't - especially given that's how they want us to interpret it now.

Except, even the manual mentions that the Khala is a place where energy can be drawn from.

Given that you're a fan of re-interpretation, one can say that the Khala "gives" energy by a form of catalysis and therefore, may not technically be the source of the energy. See, people can have other interpretations, too!

[Shadow Archon]

Of course not. Because they weren't in the book.

...Well, obviously you didn't read them then.

In what way is a shiny stone "religious" if there is no god, no spirituality, or any form of ceremony?

Who said Khaydarin Crystals were religious again?

Because I sure didn't.

...Sure, thinking on it, the Khaydarin Crystals are the equivalent of Rosaries in Protoss society...

Of course, their Rosaries have practical applications in terms of energy generation and space/time manipulation.

The book failed to explain any religious connotations.

It pretty much shows that the Khala is a religion.

So, yeah it did.

That, and the book NEVER explains how shiny crystals lead to the formation of the Judicator.

...Yes it does.

Homeboy finds the crystal, touches it, then fast forward ~2000 years later and the Judicator are there. It's not in the book, so it doesn't count.

The books tell us Khas formed the Khala and one of the social reforms it created was the caste.

It does completely count.

Books are not movies. There is no rule about "Show, don't tell."

Doesn't mean the book adequately described it.

...Says you. That's an opinion, not an objective fact.

The books did a great job in my opinion.

The Khaydarin crystals were discovered, and from that point on there is no reference to the Xel'Naga being gods. That, and a fancy name does not a god make.

*sigh*

You really didn't pay attention did you?

How greatly he would be missed. Instead, he contented himself with pressing the dead hands and thinking the traditional farewell: “Und lara khar. Anht zagatir nas”: “Be at peace. The gods watch over you.” Night was falling on the last day of Zoranis‟s leadership. Before the sun rose, as tradition had it, there would be a new executor.
-------------------------------
The door closed right before the first rush of angry Conclave had made it up the ramp, at once sealing the exiles safely away from the anger of their former brethren and entombing them. Their destiny lay in the hands of the gods now.
-------------------
“I will fight alongside you, as we have before,” said Alzadar. “I will atone for what I have done. What I have unwittingly enabled. The obscenity that marches upon us now was fed in part by my hand. My servitude—my willing, foolish, blind servitude—aided him. I will find redemption when my blood is spilled to stop him. I wish to greet the gods a templar again.”
----------------
Suddenly he was again that ancient protoss, watching as the xel‟naga abandoned them. Up it went, the home that flew, bearing the Ihan-rii, the Great Teachers, the Makers, the Guardians away, away, forever away. Dozens of lithe, purple-blue-gray shapes sprang into the air in futile pursuit, clinging to starkly beautiful crystals that had edges sharp as shikmas.

The home that flew continued to ascend, its inhabitants unmoved by the begging and pleading of those they forsook. Hands now slicked with blood lost their grip and the panicked beings fell to the earth, fell too far to survive, striking the ground with a thudding sound that was drowned out by the overwhelming noise of the departing vessel and the excruciating mental din that threatened to tear Jake‟s head apart, just as the pain in his heart threatened to rip his mind apart.

No, no, they mustn‟t go, they were everything, everything—

Overcome with despair, Jake fell to the ground as well, thrashing, his dark blue skin mottled and heated with blinding, smothering fear and fury.

What would they do? How could they go on? Alone, alone, so alone—
------------
Jake asked excitedly, “The chambers? That underground city?” Zamara had given him only the briefest tantalizing glimpse of the vastness that comprised the hidden city of the xel‟naga. Most of Temlaa‟s memories concerned a few very specific places, one of which was a chamber in which the desiccated protoss bodies had been stored.
------------------
“Treasures, true, and dangers as well,” Zamara said. “We are protoss. We might be the children of the xel‟naga, but we are not them, and their treasures would not be our treasures. So the Conclave ruled long ago, after a brief initial investigation of the caverns.”
-------------------
Do it. I must know. What was in the tanks could have a reasonable explanation, but … I think—I know what we‟re going to see there. Gods help me, so do I.

Every single time the Protoss say gods, they are talking about the Xel'naga, and there is plenty of talk about the Xel'naga, from what they did to the Protoss, to those that revered them, to those that were so distraught from them leaving which is where the Tal'Darim come from, and so on.

They mention them throughout all three novels frequently, and it is very clear the Protoss see them as gods.

But that's just a label, isn't it?

No.

The Khala is never shown to eliminate individuality. Not in the DT Saga, nor in Starcraft itself (Legacy of the Void aside, depending on where they go with it).

It doesn't.

The Dark Templar fear that it does, but from our omniscient PoV we know that it doesn't.

That, and the DT's motives are never explained. Why did they feel the need to sever their nerve cords? In the books, only the Conclave ever gives a mention for why the DT did what they did, and their perspective hardly counts. No Dark Templar character ever once explained why they felt the need to hurt themselves over it, or if they had any other options.

*sigh*

The rest of his garb was also dark—soft, heavy robes of a rust color trimmed with brown fur. Jake knew that in keeping with dark templar tradition, his nerve cords had been ritually severed. All that was left of them was a short cluster, tied back in a ponytail. Dark templar could never enter the Khala because of this self-mutilation, even if they wished to. It was a defiant and permanent action.
----------------
He looked at her, wistfully, almost hungrily. “The dark templar do not regret severing our nerve cords. We do not need the Khala as you do. But what you represent, Zamara…that I respect and wish we had.”

In other words, we only know the decision was over individuality because other sources confirmed this. The DT Saga only explains the motivations of the DT through people who were not themselves DT, and it wasn't much of an explanation at that.

It explains it just fine in my opinion.

The way a Preserver works means we do not have a Dark Templar PoV character.

Does a series called the Dark Templar Saga need a Dark Templar as one of the main protagonists?

No. I don't think so.

Well and good, but this is supposedly the Dark Templar Saga, yet the book is completely focused on Khala Protoss.

No they aren't.

The second and the third book focus a lot on the Dark Templar.

It does not adequately explain the group it was labelled to describe.

That is your opinion.

One, that again, I don't share.

There are only two DTs of significance in the entire dang trilogy (Zeratul, Mohander) as Raszagal's appearance was little better than a cameo. No Dark Templar appears at all in the first book, either in person or in flashback.

So, Ulrezaj doesn't count?

You speak of "void" -- something the book never ONCE mentions.

Wrong again.

But the dark templar were not idle. They learned many, many things as they explored the Void in their centuries of exile. If we are fortunate, you will get to meet Zeratul as well. You know where to find him?
---------------
Tassadar learned what Zeratul had to teach him, about the energies and powers the dark templar had learned after centuries of exploring the mysteries of the Void.
---------------
“I meditate. I sit in the quiet stillness that is the Void. And there is a small world that no one else knows about. The hue of the sky, a comforting pink, soothes, as do the energies of a certain place nestled in the mountains near rushing waters. It is there that I go when I am…uncertain or unhappy. The natural world heals.”
---------------
―…Zamara…it is you…and yet it is not. There is another‘s mind—by the Void, it is…human?‖
----------------
―You destroyed a cerebrate, killing it permanently,‖ Zamara said. ―You used what the Void had taught your people—you did something we never could have done without you. You know it is not your fault that in that moment, your thoughts were made known to the Overmind, who plucked from them the location of our homeworld.
------------
Some of the things I have seen, and some of the deeds I have done, Zamara, are darker and colder than the Void itself, and all the rationality and reason in the universe cannot expunge the guilt.
-----------
Much I have learned in the Void. Much I have learned in the last four years. But this would be something I have not heard in all my long, long years. Tell me then, preserver, what skill you used to continue to preserve yourself and the memories you carry.‖
---------------
Adun was the first to wield both the mental energies traditional to the Aiur protoss, and the darker energies of the Void that we have wielded for over a thousand years. It is not illogical to assume that, for want of a better word, both you and Adun tapped into energies that had consequences far greater than anticipated.‖
-------------
―We learn, we dark templar. It is what has kept us alive,‖ he said quietly. ―We learned much when we were on Aiur, and we never forgot who we were. We learned from Adun that shadow and light are illusions, and how to clothe ourselves in them so that others see what we wish them to see. We learned from the cold darkness of the very Void itself knowledge and skills that we have mastered, skills that enabled us to work against the zerg in a way that other protoss could not. We learned from the zerg and their queen the price of trust too lightly given.‖
---------------
―I think perhaps the Anakh Su‘n has yet one more manifestation before all is said and done. But first, we must take care of you—both of you. There is a place, one of the first settled by the dark templar soon after we were exiled from Aiur. Though we have spent many hundreds of years exploring the Void since we found Ehlna, we have not forgotten it. It is a place of lore and knowledge. Indeed, our term for it, Alys‘aril,‘ means Sanctuary of Wisdom.‖

The book doesn't explain anything about the Nerazim.

No, they perfectly well do.

There's really no point to quote entire chapters worth here, is there?

The only unique detail given in the book was the fact that DTs use crystals to store memory. That is the sum total of new information garnered on the Dark Templar.

Wrong.

We know that the Dark Templar as a whole are a group of scholars, wanderers, and explorers.

We know that the Dark Templar still use Khaydarin crystals for their technology and don't merely rely on Argus stones.

We know that the creation of a Dark Archon with seven individuals is possible.

We know Adun used Dark Templar energies.

We know the Dark Templar give the same reverence to the Void that the other Protoss give to the Khala.

We know that Dark Templar meditate using the Void as a guide.

We know the Dark Templar have colonies beyond Shakuras.

And on and on and on.

Yes, Khas did. But he's not Christie Golden. Khas is here summarizing what happened -- he is not showing it. We don't see the tribes coming to agreements, or deciding on who will become a leader. This is insignificant information, particularly since it comes from Khas, and not a preserver. In any case, we are getting a terse summary from a person who wasn't there, not a deep, interesting flashback from Christie Golden herself.

Khas is dead. This is the current PoV character thinking back on Khas, the One Who Brings Order.

We do not need to see all that crap done. It's not fully fleshed out in the novel, but the information is given, even though you said it was not.

Stop changing the goal posts.

Besides, the Judicator are clearly given higher authority than the other 'Toss. You can call them the eldest and wisest, if you like, but the book goes out of its way to describe the Ara tribe (a Judicator one) as unnecessarily violent. If this is the case, they should have become Templar. And if they somehow got the Judicator job, why wouldn't the other tribes object to their violence, or even just the idea of one tribe leading all the rest? Particularly since they'd been warring for an eon? Wouldn't it be wiser if a Conclave of all tribes were set to rule? After all, in family based divisions (that is, tribes), there's no particular reason why any one tribe would be smarter than the rest.

What are you talking about?

What unnecessary violence?

This is what happened involving the tribes and the castes:

“It‟s not as intolerant as it might sound, Rosemary,” Jake piped up. “Protoss aren‟t quite like us. As I told you, before the Khala, they were separated into tribes. Each tribe had a definite proclivity, a—a strength, a feel to it. When the protoss turned to the Khala, the tribes fit pretty easily into three separate categories. But no one caste is better than the others.”

The only rational explanation,

Do you know how pretentious this sounds?

The book's explanation is perfectly rational.

which I'd assumed before reading the book, is that the Khala was a set of writings passed down through the Xel'Naga which explained to the Protoss how they were meant to live. Now, if the tribes were convinced with the Xel'Naga's power, they could be convinced to let a couple specific tribes become the Judicator.

That's completely at odds with both the books and the manual which tell us that Khas created the Khala. The Xel'naga did not create the Khala.

If the crystals are simply things that make your brains get bigger (or whatever)

You keep saying this over and over again.

This did not happen.

No one's intelligence was heightened by the crystals.

It jumpstarted the psychic bond.

That is it.

there's no particular reason for one or two tribes to get all the authority.

The tribes were put into the caste in which their skills would be put best to work.

The third and final caste, the judicators, were the elders and statesmen, the governing body of the protoss. Their highest members were known as the Conclave.

Gee, sure sounds like individual skills and talents to me....

...Yeah. It does.

I say this without sarcasm.

In the games, the Judicator always were the leaders of the Protoss. Tassadar stated, "The Judicator have long since steered the actions of the Templar to their own ends." The Judicator could not do this if they lacked the authority.

Which they don't.

[quote That, and the Ara/Shelak tribes have always been portrayed as Judicator. [/quote]

Okay?

So?

*laughs* Yes they are. They attacked the Dark Templar right as they'd finally managed to exile the bunch, jeopardizing their own plans to pretend the DT never existed. Retarded. Besides, arrogance becomes ignorance over time.

Man, you are flat out misremembering what happened.

It was wrong. Jake knew it, Adun knew it, the templar knew it. And yet wrong as it was, it was still better than watching dark templar corpses stiffening in the green light filtered through the canopy. At least the dark templar were still alive to be exiled. Anger and a great sense of hurt rolled off the assembled Conclave in waves. Mixed with it was a partial sense of satisfaction and relief—at least the heretics would no longer endanger the protoss people with their refusal to link with the Khala. Jake watched grimly as dozens—hundreds—of the banished protoss moved slowly up the ramp of the curving, luminous vessel that was the last ship left behind when the Wanderers from Afar departed this world.

It had taken the protoss centuries to even get inside the xel‟naga ship, and it still held mysteries. The ship had been the template for much protoss technology, and it was a testament to how strongly the Conclave believed they were right that they would surrender such a prize in order to be rid of the dark templar. Raszagal was boarding now. She lifted her robes so as not to stumble, her head held high, as always. He saw her pride, even now, although as she was not and would never be in the Khala, he could not feel it.

Raszagal, I am so sorry, Jake sent, for her and her alone.

She turned to regard him. Do not be. You did what you could. This, we know. And then—

“Adun! We expressly forbade you to attend!”

Jake felt his friend‟s thoughts, as calm as those of Kortanul were agitated. Adun mounted the platform on which the Conclave members stood and sketched a brief bow.

“I know, Judicator. And yet again, I respectfully disobey. These people trusted me. It is my duty to see them off safely.”

“Duty! What does a templar who deliberately deceives the Conclave know of duty? You pollute the word!” The little line of refugees had come to a halt. Every one of the dark templar was looking at Kortanul and Adun. Tension was in their bodies and their eyes. The templar guards began to move forward, and Jake sent a thought to halt them.

“Please move aside, Kortanul,” Adun said gently. “I ask to escort them onto the ship, and to see them safely launched. Nothing more.”

“You ask too much!” Jake could hardly believe it, but the judicator, a full head shorter and much less powerful than Adun, actually shoved the high templar off the platform. Adun executed a graceful turn as he fell, landing smoothly. An uproar went up from the other Conclave at Kortanul‟s actions and their thoughts washed over Jake. Whatever Adun had done, painful and wrong as it was, the Conclave knew he believed it to be right, just as the Conclave believed their decree of banishment to be right.

Lost in his outrage, Kortanul had gone too far for even the Conclave.

“Touch him not!” Raszagal‟s youthful broadcast thoughts slammed into Jake. She was stronger than even he had thought, and he had not thought he underestimated her. “He has shown nothing but the best of what we can achieve! He—”

Kortanul, twisted with zealotry so violent that the rest of the Conclave recoiled from it, whirled on Raszagal. Jake saw the girl stumble and fall to her knees. At the same moment, pain from several of the Conclave washed through him as the more adept dark templar responded. Jake sent the order to fall back and protect Adun and the Conclave. As his templar guards fell back, the Conclave members, now convinced that their own lives as well as the protoss as a race were in danger, began to attack. Jake saw several dark templar fall and he saw the panic begin to spread through them. Their untrained mental powers were no match for the combined might of the Conclave. But they were still a very real danger. If in their defense, one or more lost control again, it would surely create a psionic storm.

The attack was started by Kortanul being a jackass and the Dark Templar defending themselves. It was a riot.

The Conclave didn't plan to slaughter them all, so it has nothing to do with stupidity.

Oh, pffft, only that one.

Look at that Goalpost shifting.

Jake had expected that the heretics would come largely from one or two tribes, but he was wrong. According to the information given to them by the Conclave, members from several different tribes had quietly simply refused to join the Khala. And while the Khala was constant, one‟s involvement in it did not need to be, and indeed, it would be difficult to live every moment in such a state of unity with others. But Jake and Adun went to be nourished by the rich contact many times each day and emerged refreshed and invigorated by this sacred, special immersion. So did the other templar, and the judicators, and many of the khalai.

Oh, look!

Protoss equivalent of prayer!

That's totally not religious at all.

>.< Geez...

It's simply a funeral rite anyway, with no bearing on the function of Protoss religion or anything that happens later in the story. It's a setpiece, hardly a cultural description.

And I disagree. How they perform their rituals in burials is a part of their culture and religion, especially given how it involves a Xel'naga temple, the very structure built by their gods and represents the entire Protoss way of life.

It is not something to belittle as just one small reference when you dared to say the book doesn't look at the Protoss religion.

....A person excited over a drawing in the dirt is not smarter than a normal human.

Wow. Way to damn the very beginnings of literature and art.

They are Protoss Tribals.

They aren't meant to be as smart as modern day humans or their game selves.

Their civilization completely collapsed into chaos, so yes, there had to be someone who eventually drew pictures in the dirt, and escalated their knowledge from there.

While the novels might have mentioned what happened to the 'Toss afterwards, they didn't show them developing FTL or colonizing multiple planets.

Irrelevent.

They mention it.

Hell, they show that in the modern age, the Protoss equivalent of a car is a reactionless drive equipped golden shuttle.

Given that proves the Conservation of Momentum is wrong...

Well this means that in the Starcraft universe, the Protoss were right, where as Newton and Einstein were wrong.

And that doesn't change the fact that the caveman parts were stupid.

My original point was that the crystals are a cheap macguffin explanation for the Khala.

Okay.

They are simple a thing that does something, not a political system, a religion, or some kind of lifestyle guide from the Xel'Naga.

Yes. Because the Khala is the religion, the political system, and is a lifestyle made by Khas.

Just because the cyrstals are important in rediscovering that link doesn't mean the link and the philosophy is any less potent.

They fail to explain sufficiently what the Khala is and why it resulted in the society we see in Starcraft.

Again.

When Savassan touched the crystals, he was given a mental boost from the experience. Clearly the crystals did something to his mind which resulted in him being more intelligent.

No, this did not happen.

Savassan did not gain a mental boost and was portrayed as intelligent throughout the whole dang book. Not from any magic crystal giving him extra IQ points. He was naturally inquisitive. He did the whole drawings in the dirt long before he touched the crystal. He wanted to know more about the Xel'naga. He collected Xel'naga artifacts.

All before he touched the crystal.

All it did was give him empathy.

“I have never seen anything so beautiful. They look like ... like shafts of light, or spears.”

Savassan nodded. “I have lived long, and even I have not seen anything like this.” He gazed at the crystals, then slowly, as if drawn, stepped forward and placed his hand on the smooth surface of one of the largest crystals, as he had so often done with the Ihan-rii relics.

His back arched suddenly. Every muscle in his body went rigid. Jake uttered a mental cry of alarm and tackled his mentor, clutching him around the midsection, pulling him away from the beautiful but clearly dangerous objects. He stumbled on the uneven cave floor, and they both fell hard.

“Savassan! Savassan, are you all right?”

Savassan did not reply at once. Jake reached to touch his mind and for a second encountered nothing. Panic flooded him. “Savassan!”

Savassan blinked his eyes and touched Jake’s mind immediately, reassuring the frightened youth.

“I am all right. Better than all right. I—Temlaa, the crys-tals—I touched them and—it was as if suddenly all kinds of thoughts ... no, not thoughts—feelings—were flowing through me. And there was ... something about it....”

He shook his head, unable even to think the words. “This will change everything, Temlaa. Everything. This is what wehave been hoping to find.” Savassan got to his feet, seemingly unharmed.

“Go ahead, Temlaa. Touch the crystal. It will feel overwhelming at first, but it will not hurt you. Feel what I felt ... know what I now know. You have earned this moment. Take it.”

On legs that trembled only a little, Jake walked the few steps to the jumble of glowing stones at the foot of the monolithic crystals that filled the cave, this cave they had almost missed, this simple gash in the side of a hill, so deceptively nondescript to hide such treasures. He extended a hand that shook, and gently laid it on the cool, smooth surface.

It snaked into his mind, coolly and subtly at first, weaving itself in and around his thoughts. The intensity increased, and Jake felt his body tense—
-------------------------
—as thoughts that were so far beyond thoughts settled into his very bones. It was more than thought, it was feeling, it was sensation, emotion, and without knowing fully what he was doing Jake had turned to Savassan and touched his mind even as one hand still grasped the crystal.

“I—I can feel your thoughts, master,” he sent. Joy and awe flooded him, and he felt it wash into Savassan’s consciousness like a wave surging up onto a beach. And like the tide receding he felt the thoughts and feelings return to him, followed this time by Savassan’s emotions of shock and delight and a deep, deep sense of gratitude for the opportunity to harness this gift.

Then suddenly it was too much and Jake released the crystal. At once the feelings that were not his own subsided and the only thing that brushed his mind were thoughts.

He stumbled, dizzy, and Savassan caught him and supported him.

“I felt your emotions,” Savassan said. Jake inhaled rapidly through his nostrils, trying to recover. “Not just your thoughts, Temlaa. Your feelings. And you felt mine, I know you did.”

“Yes,” Jake managed. It felt so ...distant to be speaking only with words in Savassan’s mind. He had thought they understood each other, were friends as well as colleagues, but now that they had been able to exchange not only information but feelings in their minds Jake realized how separate the protoss were from one another. He clumsily formed the thought. Savassan nodded.

“How terribly isolated we have become! And ... how strangely familiar it felt. Not to me personally, but...”

“As if it is a memory deeper than your own memory. As if it is in our blood somehow.”

The words sounded so bizarre. How could he possibly convince those who did not feel such things with so foolish an argument?

“We will not have to,” Savassan responded. “This is what we have sought, Temlaa. I think they are from the Ihan-rii, or connected with them somehow. I believe that with these crystals we can decipher the communications written on the artifacts. They will teach us things we can only imagine ... things we cannot even imagine. Temlaa—we do not know how much we do not know.”

Savassan went again to the crystals, although he did not touch them this time. “Help me gather a few now. We will return with the rest of the Shelak for more. We will work with these. We can begin to unlock the secrets of the Wanderers from Afar. We will learn their knowledge, learn what they wanted for us ... and become everything we were meant to be.”

So, no. They did not magically macguffin the Protoss to be smart.

They magically macguffined them to regain the old psychic bond.

They also were the key to translating Xel'naga artifacts.

There was no "instantly smarter" thing here.

No they don't. They just rehash what we already know about the 'Toss, without adding much in the way of new detail.

And I think I've already proved that you are completely wrong here.

You've misremembered way too much about this book to state any "facts" about it.

*facepalms* By that logic, the Dark Templar can't do psionics at all. Either that, or they can create their own mini-Khala at will.

Wrong.

Human biology =/= Protoss biology.

Look, let me put it this way. Psionic humans and Dark Templar are in the same boat, so far as the Khala is concerned.

No they aren't.

Both groups have psionic power, but neither have nerve cords. Thus, neither of them can create a Khala, mini- or otherwise, without the proper appendages.

Dark Templar only have psionic power through the Void. Without the nerve appendages, that's the only psionics they have.

Terrans don't use the Void, don't have nerve appendages, and use psionic powers more similar to normal Protoss psionics than Void Psioinics.

*facepalms* My "generalization" is based on the logical fact that the Khala requires nerve appendages.

For protoss.

The fact is that Protoss need Nerve Appendages.

Nothing says human biology has the same limitation.

Your assumption that human psionics does not equal Protoss psionics is just that -- an assumption.

It isn't an assumption.

The book, a canon source, agrees with me.

It is stated nowhere in the book or Starcraft lore that there is a difference. Neither humans nor Dark Templar have what it takes to join a Khala.

Yet, clearly the Firstborn novel has a small group of humans unwillingly join a mini-Khala.

So, you're wrong.

Says who?

Christie Golden and Jacob Ramsey apparently.

That's good enough for me.

Oh good, if you liked that book, I was going to be sorely disappointed.

Yeah, KJA turns everything he writes into shit.

The Dune Novels and the Star Wars Novels he wrote are pretty bad too.

He's just not a good writer.

There are some...sentences that have some good lore info, but for the most part?

The book is a bad summary of a SC1 edition of a Bronze League Heroes match taken seriously.

True, but only cemented in the EU. My original position was based on the source game and manual where it's quite clear that they are not the same thing. Hence my questioning of the definition of the Khala being changed later in the books/EU.

*sigh*

Are we really doing this whole EU crap vs the original lore thing again?

I treat the whole canon as one single universe.

I get really tired of having to think of them as separate every single time I get on this site.

This is an argument from ignorance especially considering when one is restricted to only having the source manual (which describes it definitively already) to rely on.

I'm not relying on just one source though.

I'm relying on everything.

That is my position.

The books and the manual do not contradict each other.

I've gone through the transcripts and the games (Sc1 and BW) never refer to the Khala as being the communal link directly so therefore I have to rely on the manual's description of it. Sure, you can interpret and infer that they've always been the same all you like but you have to realise that's hindsight bias based on the knowledge that all the recent stuff say they are the same.

Sure, whatever.

Stating there's a contradiction when you can easily rationalize the problems away with a good explanation just rustles my jimmies.

You can call it hind-sight bias and be silly all you want.

I know the later EU trumps it because all of it says they're the same thing and its considered canon - that's not my point.

Then your point must have escaped me.

Back to your usual tricks, I see... Every time you make these type of arguments, I'm always reminded of Orwell's 1984 and doublethink. To not think that's there some degree of retroactive continuity going on here is borderline insane troll logic, so there's nothing that I can really do but just nod my head and agree with you to avoid a headache. I'll think I'll leave this quote from the book, so that the people who can, will enjoy the irony:

Har Har.

You know my PoV.

It isn't a retcon if the previous facts are still correct.

Addition-type Retcons are very plentiful.

Alteration-type Retcons are not. When I generally say retcon, I most definitely am referring to the Alteration kind.

To you that's like saying good is bad and bad is good, right?

I have no idea what you are insinuating.

Who said that philosophies don't have practical applications? I certainly didn't. It's a moot point to make regardless since I already said that the Khala is a means to use and maintain the psychic link. This does not necessarily mean they are the same. I'm not denying your right to reinterpret that it actually is though.

Eh, should have quoted the Dragoon segment here:

The shattered bodies of the
volunteers are housed within large, mechanical walkers.
By focusing through the Khala, the fallen warriors can
control the movements of the Dragoon as naturally as if
they were within their former bodies.

Sure, you'll probably say its just how they discipline their psionics.

There's a bit of confirmation bias on your part here since it could also still make sense if you replaced "the Khala" (in that quote) with "their religion" or "Khas' philosophy". Because, you know, the Khala is "primarily meant to define a rigid system of behaviour".

Sure.

It also makes more sense to me if you assume its a psychic link.

Besides, everyone on this planet has confirmation bias.

Never said you couldn't - especially given that's how they want us to interpret it now.

You did say so.

Every time you corrected me with "I must mean the psychic link and not the Khala."

[quote]
Given that you're a fan of re-interpretation,[/quote}

Is there a tone of derision I sense here?

one can say that the Khala "gives" energy by a form of catalysis and therefore, may not technically be the source of the energy. See, people can have other interpretations, too!

Sure, go ahead.

[Nissa]

Wow...Shadow Archon, talking with you is making my head spin. In other words, TL;DR.

Actually, I did start to read it, but then lost the will to finish when you said this:

The books tell us Khas formed the Khala and one of the social reforms it created was the caste.

It does completely count.

Books are not movies. There is no rule about "Show, don't tell."

"Show, don't tell." is the number one principle about books. Christie Golden is a huge violator of this principle, though to be fair her worst example wasn't the Dark Templar trilogy. It's still an example, however. Like the bit about Khas you mention. It doesn't show how Khas created the Khala, it just has a few lines stating that it happened, before going on to Adun's life. So many things that would have been better explained out get one or two lines of mention, and that's supposed to count as backstory.

That, and you completely contradicted yourself.

Who said Khaydarin Crystals were religious again?

It pretty much shows that the Khala is a religion.

Okay, so if the Khala is based on khaydarin crystals, as the book shows, then aren't you saying the crystals are religious? And if the crystals aren't religious, how does the book show that the Khala is a religion?

[Shadow Archon]

Wow...Shadow Archon, talking with you is making my head spin. In other words, TL : DR.

Alrighty then. Less work for me.

Actually, I did start to read it, but then lost the will to finish when you said this:

"Show, don't tell." is the number one principle about books.

And I disagree about the importance of seeing the Caste system being formed as being important enough to be shown.

Not everything will be shown in a book, and somethings you're just going to have leave in the exposition.

Christie Golden is a huge violator of this principle, though to be fair her worst example wasn't the Dark Templar trilogy. It's still an example, however. Like the bit about Khas you mention. It doesn't show how Khas created the Khala, it just has a few lines stating that it happened, before going on to Adun's life. So many things that would have been better explained out get one or two lines of mention, and that's supposed to count as backstory.

Uh, I didn't quote the whole thing with Khas though. There's a good bit more with him and the tribes later on, but I'm not going to start posting full chapters here.

That, and you completely contradicted yourself.

With what?

Okay, so if the Khala is based on khaydarin crystals, as the book shows,

...You should really stop talking now.

The. Khala. Is. Not. Based. On. Khaydarin. Crystals.

The Khala is based on the communal link, and they have become so intertwined, the very term "Path of Ascension" which in Khalani is Khala, refers to the link itself.

The crystals just jump-started the link. That's their role in the story. The entire belief is not centered on the crystals.

Just because it jump-started the link doesn't mean the link's very cornerstone is "PRAISE THE CRYSTAL!"

then aren't you saying the crystals are religious?

Nope.

And if the crystals aren't religious, how does the book show that the Khala is a religion?

Kortanul softened a bit. “I know this is hard,” he said gently. “I know it seems wrong. But it is to preserve the Khala—our way of life, everything that it is to be protoss. Adun, you must trust in our wisdom. This is truly the right thing to do. Keep me apprised.”
------------------
Ladranix nodded. “That was the gift of Khas and the Khala. Not just a touching of minds, but a touching of souls, of hearts. This intimacy is what the dark templar have turned their backs on.”
-------------------
Jake had expected that the heretics would come largely from one or two tribes, but he was wrong. According to the information given to them by the Conclave, members from several different tribes had quietly simply refused to join the Khala. And while the Khala was constant, one‟s involvement in it did not need to be, and indeed, it would be difficult to live every moment in such a state of unity with others. But Jake and Adun went to be nourished by the rich contact many times each day and emerged refreshed and invigorated by this sacred, special immersion. So did the other templar, and the judicators, and many of the khalai.
---------------
Everyone in the room reacted with instinctive dread. Adun continued. “They are right not to want to replay those dreadful times. They are right to want all to be in the Khala.”
----------------------
“Always, we templar have obeyed the will of the Conclave, for always, they have done what is right and just to protect us all. It is they who keep pure the tenets of the Khala, which has been and continues to be our salvation.”
---------------------
“But they have renounced the Khala. They have removed themselves from its dictates, its guidance, its protection. Worse, they seek to actively destroy it. They have chosen to withdraw from what it means to be protoss. They are the enemy, and they seek to undermine all that makes us what and who we are. They must be destroyed.”
----------------------
The girl kept her thoughts and feelings well masked. She had great control, for one so young and so … ill-treated. Reluctantly Jake discovered a sneaking admiration for her, despite the fact that she was a heretic and, worse, a fool. The Khala was the way of survival for the protoss. In unity, there was strength. In unity, there was compassion. To espouse or worse yet to actually believe anything other than that would be tantamount to wishing to doom the entire race. Was that what this was about then? Was this some kind of—of strange organization that found solace in the thought of the race‟s extinction? He would have to ask Adun, when he was done speaking with the girl.
---------------------
This cannot be!” Adun cried. “What do they hope to accomplish? Hurtle us backward thousands of years to when we were no better than the beasts of the jungles—worse, because we had self-awareness. They know that the Khala was the greatest boon the protoss have ever had! Why would they wish to ruin our salvation?”
--------------------
He had drafted a series of rules on how best to navigate this intimate space, and the collection of rules and the emotional and mental link itself had become known as the Khala.
-------------------
While the ritual itself was ancient, performed by each tribe even back during the Aeon of Strife, the Road had come into existence only after the protoss had embraced the Khala. The Road of Remembrance was a physical symbol of the Path of Ascension. As all protoss were joined in the Khala, so now all veterans and protoss of note, no matter their caste, were given the honor of traveling the Road of Remembrance. Jake had seen artisans, scientists, templar, and members of the Conclave alike being borne on a floating dais, a stasis field surrounding their bodies with a halo.

The religious connotations are all over the place.

Religous persecution for not following it. It being the meaning of life and the most important thing ever. It having certain times of the day where you meditate/pray.

And so on and so forth.

Also, about the whole human Khala thing:

“So?” Rosemary prompted, her eyes on her work. Jake continued.

“Well … I knew what had happened to the protoss when they first were exposed to the Khala. And I thought, what if I shared that feeling with everyone in the surrounding area?” Rosemary fixed him with intense blue eyes. As always, Jake felt something flutter inside him at that gaze. “You linked everyone in the Khala, Jake?” Anger and a hint of fear flitted across her face. He didn‟t have to read her thoughts to know what she was thinking—was she going to have her brain rewired, as his had been?

“No, no,” he said. “That‟s not possible. We‟re not protoss, for one thing. Our brains can‟t handle something like that directly. And even the protoss needed to touch the khaydarin crystals to experience it, at least at first. Not sure about it now; Zamara hasn‟t taken me that far yet. What I did was share the memory of how it felt, and for a brief moment I opened your minds to each other. You all—we all—did the rest.”
-----------
The moment Ladranix‟s fingers touched the smooth surface, Jake felt his reaction. They all did. Ladranix‟s joy poured over them like warm honey, filled with a sense of connection, of unity, and Jake gasped with it. A heartbeat later, Zamara had erected a barrier.

You are not protoss, although in spirit you are our kin, Jacob, she said sadly. This place—you cannot come here. Your mind cannot handle it. It would kill you.

Jake realized that he had been close—perilously, gloriously close—to entering the Khala. The crystal had facilitated the mental journey to a degree that even Ladranix had never experienced, and Jake was fiercely envious of the protoss. He would never know such union; the closest he would ever come was that moment, seemingly so long ago now, when he had brought the human minds together for that one brief moment.

So, the "mini-Khala" is very much diluted and weak compared to the real deal.

[Turalyon]

*sigh*

Are we really doing this whole EU crap vs the original lore thing again?

I treat the whole canon as one single universe.

I get really tired of having to think of them as separate every single time I get on this site.

Don't know what you're sighing about since the post that you initially responded to (#15) made it very clear that my position was based on the original/manual. Wasn't my fault if you couldn't comprehend it in the first place and went off on your own tangent.

The books and the manual do not contradict each other.

Oh, but they do. If we are to make steadfast arguments based on straight up facts and not relying on vague inferences, the original source clearly states the Khala is a religion/philosophy that relies on but is a separate thing from the psychic link. The later stuff say they are synonymous, therefore there is a contradiction. I know you can't see this but any other layman would.

Stating there's a contradiction when you can easily rationalize the problems away with a good explanation just rustles my jimmies.

Classic sign of denial right here. Rationalising a contradiction away does not make it not a contradiction. Someone saying that something was red when later they say it's green is still a contradiction even after you "rationalise" (or hopefully better, realise) they were red-green colour-blind in the first place.

It isn't a retcon if the previous facts are still correct.

Retcons are all the same to me in that they are all about reframing past events. They are neither good/bad inherently, only well/poorly implemented. It doesn't have to involve contradiction but those that do stick out more. The fact that an additive retcon does not actually change the previous facts does not mean it's still not a retcon (hence it's name....).

I have no idea what you are insinuating.

Was just making a joke about when you say a word has multiple definitions, to you it would probably mean that the definition of one word could very well include its opposite. Hence, good is bad and bad is good. Eh, it's not good when I have to start explaining my jokes...

Sure, you'll probably say its just how they discipline their psionics.

I have no reason not to given that the quote comes from the same manual that states the Khala is just a discipline/philosophy.

It also makes more sense to me if you assume its a psychic link.

Besides, everyone on this planet has confirmation bias.

You would have no deductive reason to assume so until you got to the EU stuff (or started their first) that said otherwise.

You did say so.

Every time you corrected me with "I must mean the psychic link and not the Khala."

That was when I wasn't sure what your position was because you didn't categorically say they were synonymous.

Is there a tone of derision I sense here?

Do you want to interpret it that way? If so, then by all means, feel free to be offended.

[Nissa]

And I disagree about the importance of seeing the Caste system being formed as being important enough to be shown.

Not everything will be shown in a book, and somethings you're just going to have leave in the exposition.

Only, the formation of the castes is the most important detail. We already know that Adun helped the Dark Templar. What we don't know is why the Dark Templar felt the need to go to the extreme of severing themselves, or what the Khala did to provoke them.

This is a huge problem mainly because the book shows ~2000 years passing from the time the Khala was started to the Dark Templar's rebellion. If this rebellion did not happen immediately after widespread acceptance of the Khala, then some incident must have taken place for the Dark Templar to want to split off. Either the Conclave did something horrible, or a DT brought back older ways, or Nerazim, void-based belief emerged at this point. The DT Saga did not state that any of these things had happened, making it look like the Dark Templar just outright rebelled out of the blue.

Thus, the formation of the Khala is an important plot point, so that we understand (a) why the Khala needed to be guarded and (b) what specifically about the Khala made certain Protoss uncomfortable with it. You can say the Khala lacked individually all you like, but that is never shown in the book, and neither does Raszagal explain it to Adun, either.

Uh, I didn't quote the whole thing with Khas though. There's a good bit more with him and the tribes later on, but I'm not going to start posting full chapters here.

I've read the books. Khas does not go into cultural detail. He's there to display his present-day (by his perspective) actions, not explain the workings of the Khala or the reason of the DT. He's therefore irrelevant to our discussion.

The. Khala. Is. Not. Based. On. Khaydarin. Crystals.

The Khala is based on the communal link, and they have become so intertwined, the very term "Path of Ascension" which in Khalani is Khala, refers to the link itself.

The crystals just jump-started the link. That's their role in the story. The entire belief is not centered on the crystals.

Just because it jump-started the link doesn't mean the link's very cornerstone is "PRAISE THE CRYSTAL!"

*sigh* Please try to understand what I am saying.

I did at no point say that the crystals were objects of worship. The Khala came about because of these crystals, and is therefore based on them. Or was jumpstarted by them, if you feel my vocabulary was wrong.

I mentioned it because you claimed that the book explained the Khala. It did not. It explained how the crystals jumpstarted the Khala, and then jumped forward to Adun's time.

Now, if the Khala itself is religious, then the crystals themselves have a religious function, whether they are religious in origin or not. You can't separate the two and say one is religious and the other isn't.

The religious connotations are all over the place.

I at no point denied religious connotations. I did deny that the ways of the Khala and Dark Templar were adequately described. The narrative can say "pray," "heretic," or so forth, but that doesn't mean they explain actual, concrete information about a religious belief.

So, the "mini-Khala" is very much diluted and weak compared to the real deal.

What I'm saying is, scale doesn't matter. The Khala can be small or large, but since it is dependent on the nerve cords, and no canon information has stated otherwise, we cannot conclude that whatever happened to Jake was the real Khala.

Besides, your argument is based on the assumption that the Khala is merely a psychic link. Because your assumption is based on EU retconning, I cannot accept this argument. You haven't convinced Turalyon, and you haven't convinced me.

[Shadow Archon]

Don't know what you're sighing about since the post that you initially responded to (#15) made it very clear that my position was based on the original/manual. Wasn't my fault if you couldn't comprehend it in the first place and went off on your own tangent.

No.

Your post wasn't clear.

I didn't know you were going by the manual, and only by the manual, and nothing but the manual.

Your complete intention to ignore all other canon was lost by me.

My mistake.

Oh, but they do. If we are to make steadfast arguments based on straight up facts and not relying on vague inferences, the original source clearly states the Khala is a religion/philosophy that relies on but is a separate thing from the psychic link.

No it doesn't

It in no way states it is a separate thing from the psychic link.

That is what it would take for there to be a contradiction.

Luckily, the Khala being a religion/philosophy and the name for the psychic link itself are not mutually exclusive terminology.

The later stuff say they are synonymous, therefore there is a contradiction. I know you can't see this but any other layman would.

Oh, look more insults.

I would think any layman would see that the manual in no way states that the Khala is not a psychic link.

The books show us that the Khala is indeed the philosophy and religion from the manual, and that overtime it became synonymous with the mental and emotional link.

This does not contradict the manual at all.

Classic sign of denial right here. Rationalising a contradiction away does not make it not a contradiction.

...Of course it does.

If you can rationalize the "apparent" contradiction into a scenario where there is no contradiction, it is no contradiction.

I'm not denying anything.

Someone saying that something was red when later they say it's green is still a contradiction even after you "rationalise" (or hopefully better, realise) they were red-green colour-blind in the first place.

Non-sequitur.

That analogy has no relevance to this discussion.

It's more like this.

Martial arts is a way of life and a philosophy. This is correct.

Martial arts is a way to defend yourself. This too is correct.

These are not mutually exclusive definitions. They can be both.

Retcons are all the same to me in that they are all about reframing past events. They are neither good/bad inherently, only well/poorly implemented. It doesn't have to involve contradiction but those that do stick out more. The fact that an additive retcon does not actually change the previous facts does not mean it's still not a retcon (hence it's name....).

Well, to me, contradictions are a bad thing that weakens my connection to the story while additions are not.

So, from now on, I'll just say contradictions to be more precise.

Was just making a joke about when you say a word has multiple definitions, to you it would probably mean that the definition of one word could very well include its opposite. Hence, good is bad and bad is good. Eh, it's not good when I have to start explaining my jokes...

Well, when your jokes are stupid and don't make sense...

I have no reason not to given that the quote comes from the same manual that states the Khala is just a discipline/philosophy.

Whatever.

You would have no deductive reason to assume so until you got to the EU stuff (or started their first) that said otherwise.

And nothing is stopping me from using the EU in every and all my debates. Nothing in your original post dictated I couldn't use it...so...

<.<

That was when I wasn't sure what your position was because you didn't categorically say they were synonymous.

My position is that all canon is evidence, and that they all are a collective one whole.

Therefore, I don't ignore the EU and go strictly by the Manual. I don't even see the EU as an outsider to the games. They are of equal importance as far as I'm concerned.

I go by all canon everywhere.

As such, "correcting me" seems pretty gosh darn silly.

Do you want to interpret it that way? If so, then by all means, feel free to be offended.

Oh, you don't have to be an aloof ass already.

Only, the formation of the castes is the most important detail.

That's, again, your opinion.

We already know that Adun helped the Dark Templar. What we don't know is why the Dark Templar felt the need to go to the extreme of severing themselves, or what the Khala did to provoke them.

Individuality.

It's gone over a few times in both Shadow Hunters and Twilight.

If you can't understand that, this is not my fault.

This is a huge problem mainly because the book shows ~2000 years passing from the time the Khala was started to the Dark Templar's rebellion. If this rebellion did not happen immediately after widespread acceptance of the Khala, then some incident must have taken place for the Dark Templar to want to split off.

What an odd conclusion.

No incident occurred.

Those that wanted to distance themselves from the Khala did so on their own for their own reasons.

Either the Conclave did something horrible, or a DT brought back older ways, or Nerazim, void-based belief emerged at this point. The DT Saga did not state that any of these things had happened, making it look like the Dark Templar just outright rebelled out of the blue.

The Dark Templar simply didn't immerse themselves from the Khala. If the Conclave never forced the issue, there never would have been any mass exodus.

They could have co-existed then as they do now.

So, it's not what I would call a "rebellion." There was no armed resistance designed to destroy the Khala. Of course, the Conclave jumped to that conclusion...but that's neither here or there.

[quote]
Thus, the formation of the Khala is an important plot point, so that we understand (a) why the Khala needed to be guarded and (b) what specifically about the Khala made certain Protoss uncomfortable with it.[/qutoe]

Which we already both know.

You can say the Khala lacked individually all you like, but that is never shown in the book, and neither does Raszagal explain it to Adun, either.

Actually, she does.

Adun nodded absently, his powerful attention completely focused on the girl. “Speak, child,” he said gently. “I would hear what you have to say.”

She responded with a thought of annoyance so great that Jake blinked. “You will hear, but you will not listen. You will not understand.”

“There is nothing to understand about lies and heresy!” snapped one of the Conclave, unable or, more likely, unwilling to conceal his thoughts.

Adun held up a hand. “You asked me to speak with her. Let me do so.”

The girl kept her thoughts and feelings well masked. She had great control, for one so young and so … ill-treated. Reluctantly Jake discovered a sneaking admiration for her, despite the fact that she was a heretic and, worse, a fool. The Khala was the way of survival for the protoss. In unity, there was strength. In unity, there was compassion. To espouse or worse yet to actually believe anything other than that would be tantamount to wishing to doom the entire race. Was that what this was about then? Was this some kind of—of strange organization that found solace in the thought of the race‟s extinction? He would have to ask Adun, when he was done speaking with the girl. Adun lifted his hands and turned the palms out.

The girl didn‟t move for a long moment, and then, finally, slowly, she mirrored the executor‟s gesture. A glow formed between their hands, and they stood unmoving for a surprisingly long time.

At last, Adun lowered his hands and nodded. One of the guards came and silently took the girl away. She left the vast, intimidating chamber the same way she had entered it, head high, dignity intact.

“Now, you understand the full depths of the dangers we face, Executor,” Kortanul said.

Adun nodded. His thoughts were hidden, even from Jake. “What they believe cannot be permitted to spread,” Adun said.

The Conclave looked at one another and Jake knew they were communicating quickly and privately. Kortanul turned back to Adun. “Our past is rich and beautiful in many respects. There is much to be proud of. And … much not to be,” he said quietly. “It is through the unity of the Khala, staying on the path Khas showed us without wavering, that we can continue to have a beautiful and rich future. There is nothing that can be permitted to damage that. Not even other protoss.”
-----------------------
“The girl … she was not evil. She was not even truly misguided. There was an odd … merit to what she believed, although it seems at first to be directly against all we know to be right. I need to know more. We, the high templar, need to know more. The Conclave wishes the threat removed, and I agree with that. The Conclave truly believes this is the only way. But perhaps these heretics can be reasoned with. Perhaps they can be reminded of what it means to be protoss. If they have concerns, perhaps I can allay them.”
-------------------------
You have spoken with Raszagal. We will find others, and we will speak with them too before we summarily execute them. In my heart … Raszagal is not a threat. I have questioned her—extensively. Nothing in her desires revolution, or disharmony. She merely wishes to keep herself to herself. Is that worthy of death?”

We just aren't privy to the conversation.

As for statements about individuality:

Jake had expected that the heretics would come largely from one or two tribes, but he was wrong. According to the information given to them by the Conclave, members from several different tribes had quietly simply refused to join the Khala. And while the Khala was constant, one‟s involvement in it did not need to be, and indeed, it would be difficult to live every moment in such a state of unity with others. But Jake and Adun went to be nourished by the rich contact many times each day and emerged refreshed and invigorated by this sacred, special immersion. So did the other templar, and the judicators, and many of the khalai.

It would be easy to locate someone in the Khala. But how to find one who never came to this place for nourishment was the problem. The Conclave had a list, however, and quietly, with no fanfare, templar found and took prisoner those on the list. Each one they interviewed unsettled Jake, Adun, and the other templar further. For like Raszagal, they were calm and reasoned, and their arguments … had merit. But which course of action represented following the Khala—refraining from killing protoss whose hearts held no true threat, or exterminating those who did not wish to merge so deeply with others?

That's it.

They didn't wish to immerse themselves in the Khala as other Protoss do daily.

If you don't think this is an adequate explanation...well, that would be, again, just your opinion.

I've read the books. Khas does not go into cultural detail.

I'm pretty sure we see Protoss culture pre-Khala and post-Khala just fine.

He's there to display his present-day (by his perspective) actions, not explain the workings of the Khala or the reason of the DT. He's therefore irrelevant to our discussion.

That's not what you stated.

You stated, "It does not show Khas create the Khala."

But it does.

Now, you're talking about him explaining the Khala.

The Khala is thoroughly explained my multiple Protoss in all three damn books.

So, again, I've come to the conclusion that you didn't read the books, or simply didn't pay attention.

*sigh* Please try to understand what I am saying.

I did at no point say that the crystals were objects of worship. The Khala came about because of these crystals, and is therefore based on them.

Wrong.

The Khala as a philosophy and religion is not based on the crystals.

Or was jumpstarted by them, if you feel my vocabulary was wrong.

Yes.

I mentioned it because you claimed that the book explained the Khala. It did not. It explained how the crystals jumpstarted the Khala, and then jumped forward to Adun's time.

That is where you were wrong.

I quoted a whole spiel about how the Khala worked up above before Adun's time.

And in Adun's time, the expand on how the Khala works as well.

Now, if the Khala itself is religious, then the crystals themselves have a religious function, whether they are religious in origin or not. You can't separate the two and say one is religious and the other isn't.

Of course you totally can.

The Crystals are no longer necessary in maintaining the Khala. After they used the Crystal in the beginning, Protoss were naturally born into the Khala. They stated this.

The Crystals are mostly used for practical applications, and as we saw with Stetmann in SC2, those applications are extremely insane.

I at no point denied religious connotations. I did deny that the ways of the Khala and Dark Templar were adequately described. The narrative can say "pray," "heretic," or so forth, but that doesn't mean they explain actual, concrete information about a religious belief.

*sigh*

We'll just have to agree to disagree here.

I felt that they were adequately explained in the novel's length.

You don't.

What I'm saying is, scale doesn't matter. The Khala can be small or large, but since it is dependent on the nerve cords, and no canon information has stated otherwise, we cannot conclude that whatever happened to Jake was the real Khala.

Well...I never called it a real Khala...so?

Besides, your argument is based on the assumption that the Khala is merely a psychic link.

Attachment 2396

Because your assumption is based on EU retconning, I cannot accept this argument. You haven't convinced Turalyon, and you haven't convinced me.

So, you're flat out ignoring canon you don't like?

That's fine.

This conversation is over then.

There's no point in arguing if you get to arbitrarily ignore canon info you don't like.