What Are You Watching?

[Turalyon]

**SPOILER WARNING FOR DEVS**

Yes! I really liked it! I came up with a very similar idea for a story I wanted to write a couple of years ago. I even had the same kind of opening with someone trying to run away with the tech and getting killed. Then it evolved into something else of course but that's partly because the tech worked differently. In my world, the computation was made by an infinite alien machine that resided into its own dimension and you would access its power through some helmet like devices that can wireless connect to it. Also you couldn't just see any point in time like in Devs, you would only see/feel the perspective of the user. It would bring your consciousness for x amount of time to a point basically. Another thing too is that, anyone could alter the future after seeing it and if you did, you would need to recalculate because otherwise the machine would give you a wrong prediction (had some nice twists with that ).

Wow, it has some distinct similiairties, even down to incorporating the "Many Worlds" theory of quantum mechanics I see! It turns out that the machine in Devs is also kinda limited to the perspective of the user - especially in the case where it can see past Lily's death - which there happens to be no explanation for and is another thing I'm kinda bugged about in terms but in terms the consistency of the sci-fi it presents. If the machine only achieves "clarity" of its visions with the Many Worlds theory that Lyndon incorporated into it (because it was all grainy and unclear when adhering to the deterministic theory that Forest wanted for it), then there should be no reason it can't see beyond Lily's death nor should it be a "shock" that Lily changes the way she ends up dying compared to that prediction/vision.

-It's probably impossible to calculate the (possibly) infinite timeline of a (possibly) infinite universe at the atomic level precision with like a ~5 cube km computer. Even more so when it's done almost instantly like in Devs.

Indeed. A single computer in a single universe would be very unlikely to have the ability to calculate infinite complete universes, let alone just multiple universes.

-The interface they use to navigate to any point in time is like a physical remote control of sort (iirc)... That's ridiculous. At best they'd need the full ui of a 3D modeling program or the editor of a game engine

They never do explain how they are able to view things anywhere at anytime. What exactly is doing the viewing?

I can't buy the argument that you can't change the future if you see it or that only a limited number of people can.

The thing is, the definition of "future" depends on how you view time itself. Most depictions of time/time travel in fiction actually subscribe to the many worlds theory (but occasionally try to grab bits of determinism which makes it nonsensical) in that time is not a single continuum but many/infinite parallel universes running at different places in time (with or without other differences to the originally shown universe/timeline). Changing the "future" in this instance is not really changing the future of the continuum you originally come from but a parallel universe's/alternate timeline. In a true deterministic view (which Forest and Katie believe in but are actually wrong and for some reason choosing to be a knowing slave to it), the future is indeed unmalleable and knowing the future is incorporated into the illusion of free will such that it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Not much pop fiction have done this correctly, the only one springing to mind being the original Terminator film (which T2 then later subverts).

There's other stuff too but at least the rules of the universe seems consistent I guess. Otherwise, I'm okay with Forest's motivations. How do you feel they are different in the end?

It's to do with the reveal that all he wanted out of the Devs (Deus) Machine was to create a simulation of a world in which he could inhabit a world where his daughter Amaya was still alive. It's makes it kinda unclear why Forest is a hardline determinist in order to achieve that because it is unnecessary and counter to this goal. In a true deterministic simulation, Amaya is and would be dead still. Before we know the reveal of this simulation thing, it makes sense Forest wants it to be deterministic like that (despite Amaya being dead) since it absolves him of the guilt of being responsible for Amaya's death because that means he really had no choice (the analogy given being he was on tramlines). The Many-Worlds theory would put that guilt and shame back on him because it would imply he had a choice and signify that he made a bad one leading to Amaya's death. This is why he's upset with and fires Lyndon.

Thing is, the only way a simulation of Amaya still existing/being alive at this present/point in time depicted in the show, can only actually occur with the Many Worlds theory (since determinism will always have Amaya dying in the car crash) and he should've known that from the beginning if that was the true intent of his making the Devs machine. He rants at one point that he denies the many-worlds theory because it won't be his Amaya but this is actually what he really wants since a simulation of world where Amaya still exists is technically, and will never be, his Amaya anyway! The only justification I can come up with is that a deterministic interpretation means that his resurrection in the simulation would mean he'd be guaranteed to be in the one simulation of Amaya still being alive and not be elsewhere in some other alternative universe but that kinda falls apart since it wouldn't matter anyway because each instance of himself in a many-worlds simulation would still have a high chance of one of him, if not infinite version of him (which are all the same person up to when he died in the real world), in a simulation with Amaya still being alive.

Also, it makes no sense why he'd be so eager to see through the so-called deterministic event of having Lily die when anything past that point is unknowable/static. You'd think he'd want to avoid that and look for an alternate timeline/universe (because Lyndon's work in the Devs machine should allow that) that will see him enter the simulation he wanted.

[Mislagnissa]

I tried watching Midnight Gospel. I stopped watching after I realized it was just somebody’s rambling podcast set to random surreal imagery. It’s clearly made for stoners.

Damnit

[sandwich_bird]

It turns out that the machine in Devs is also kinda limited to the perspective of the user

Hmm I guess you could say that in a way yeah :P . But I meant in the most literal sense as in I'd press buttons and then I would experience what I experienced yesterday or what I will experience tomorrow in first person and not just through a screen. My consciousness would move in time if that makes any sense.

especially in the case where it can see past Lily's death - which there happens to be no explanation for and is another thing I'm kinda bugged about in terms but in terms the consistency of the sci-fi it presents. If the machine only achieves "clarity" of its visions with the Many Worlds theory that Lyndon incorporated into it (because it was all grainy and unclear when adhering to the deterministic theory that Forest wanted for it), then there should be no reason it can't see beyond Lily's death nor should it be a "shock" that Lily changes the way she ends up dying compared to that prediction/vision.

I think the idea is that, even with Lyndon's theory, the computer always predict the same outcome, anywhere, up until that moment. The picture is grainy after that point because there's an infinite number of different ways this could have happened which then lead to an infinite # of outcomes. This is not a problem for other observations because the computer already knows which timeline did or will occur for the observers. So even if the computer can predict a timeline, it doesn't know which one to present because it doesn't know which one the observer will end up in = grainy picture.

Then you might ask "okay but why does the deterministic approach fail to show anything past that moment then? Since it already decided on a future timeline after-all" and I guess I would just say because it's not right anyways I guess lol.

It's to do with the reveal that all he wanted out of the Devs (Deus) Machine was to create a simulation of a world in which he could inhabit a world where his daughter Amaya was still alive. It's makes it kinda unclear why Forest is a hardline determinist in order to achieve that because it is unnecessary and counter to this goal. In a true deterministic simulation, Amaya is and would be dead still. Before we know the reveal of this simulation thing, it makes sense Forest wants it to be deterministic like that (despite Amaya being dead) since it absolves him of the guilt of being responsible for Amaya's death because that means he really had no choice (the analogy given being he was on tramlines). The Many-Worlds theory would put that guilt and shame back on him because it would imply he had a choice and signify that he made a bad one leading to Amaya's death. This is why he's upset with and fires Lyndon.

Thing is, the only way a simulation of Amaya still existing/being alive at this present/point in time depicted in the show, can only actually occur with the Many Worlds theory (since determinism will always have Amaya dying in the car crash) and he should've known that from the beginning if that was the true intent of his making the Devs machine. He rants at one point that he denies the many-worlds theory because it won't be his Amaya but this is actually what he really wants since a simulation of world where Amaya still exists is technically, and will never be, his Amaya anyway! The only justification I can come up with is that a deterministic interpretation means that his resurrection in the simulation would mean he'd be guaranteed to be in the one simulation of Amaya still being alive and not be elsewhere in some other alternative universe but that kinda falls apart since it wouldn't matter anyway because each instance of himself in a many-worlds simulation would still have a high chance of one of him, if not infinite version of him (which are all the same person up to when he died in the real world), in a simulation with Amaya still being alive.

Also, it makes no sense why he'd be so eager to see through the so-called deterministic event of having Lily die when anything past that point is unknowable/static. You'd think he'd want to avoid that and look for an alternate timeline/universe (because Lyndon's work in the Devs machine should allow that) that will see him enter the simulation he wanted.

First thing is that, if the many world theory is right, when he does upload himself inside, he will be forced to experience an infinite number of timelines including one that involves a dead Amaya again. The ending implied as much anyways. So presumably that's a scenario he didn't want to put himself through so he wants a simulation that can only have one outcome. Inside that single timeline, he would change the past and the machine would generate a single prediction based on that change. It wouldn't be the real world anymore (well... see my following point) but at least he wouldn't have to possibly experience a timeline where he also lose her.

Director's basically says as much:

https://www.rollingstone.com/tv/tv-f...erview-980235/

Was Forest’s original plan always to project himself into the machine at the end?
It’s always his plan, because this is how he gets to actually be with his daughter again, rather than just watch his daughter. The thing that changes for Forest is that he has adhered to a view of quantum mechanics that does not include many worlds. There’s just one world, which means he can recreate his daughter exactly as she was, and rejoin his life exactly as it was without the car crash happening. What he is forced to accept in the end is that there will be versions of him that can experience that, but also versions that will not experience that. So he has a more poignant end result than the one he was looking for.

Otherwise, this is a bit head canon but if their world is deterministic and the computer is the world/god as he says, if he could move his conscience to the past, maybe he could change the world entirely and not just in the simulation. So he would become like a god I guess. I really thought they were going for something like that originally.

I tried watching Midnight Gospel. I stopped watching after I realized it was just somebody’s rambling podcast set to random surreal imagery. It’s clearly made for stoners.

Damnit

Disappointing. That's one I wanted to try.

[Mislagnissa]

I can’t find anything worth watching anymore. Even youtube feels stale.

[Turalyon]

But I meant in the most literal sense as in I'd press buttons and then I would experience what I experienced yesterday or what I will experience tomorrow in first person and not just through a screen. My consciousness would move in time if that makes any sense.

So your present self's consciousness would supplant the consciousness of your past/future self's? That would be bad in so many ways...

I think the idea is that, even with Lyndon's theory, the computer always predict the same outcome, anywhere, up until that moment. The picture is grainy after that point because there's an infinite number of different ways this could have happened which then lead to an infinite # of outcomes. This is not a problem for other observations because the computer already knows which timeline did or will occur for the observers. So even if the computer can predict a timeline, it doesn't know which one to present because it doesn't know which one the observer will end up in = grainy picture.

Why are the "future" visions the machine creates restricted and limited to the observers, whilst the "past" visions are not? Why is the future vision only grainy specifically after Lily dies? Shouldn't it have gone grainy before that (ie: as she was walking into the the lift) to accommodate the actual variance that took place based on Lily's previous observation of her near future prediction?

With some thought, the only solution I can come up with to explain that is that Forest and Katie were lying by omission to Lily (only liars says they're going to tell you the truth or that they're not lying) - the vision was a specific determined prediction limited to Lily that they chose and were trying to fulfill, not a failure/inability of the machine to predict past a certain point.

Then you might ask "okay but why does the deterministic approach fail to show anything past that moment then? Since it already decided on a future timeline after-all" and I guess I would just say because it's not right anyways I guess lol.

The intended consequence/effect was for Forest and Lily to enter the simulation and it is presumed that this is achieved by both their deaths when that elevator crashes and they asphyxiate. Because if not, why else would Forest blithely follow this route if this somehow wasn't in pursuance of his ultimate goal? Their deaths were always determined because Stewart was always going to drop that lift (this was confirmed later by the writer) whether or not Lily shot Forest (which, interestingly enough, renders Lily's choice meaningless). Since this was Forest's ultimate plan and goal, the machine should've been able to allow more predictions even if they were incorrect (which the one Lily saw before her death was already!). The solution I mentioned above is the only reason I can come up with.

That same article I linked further explains that Devs was not actually a prediction machine but a resurrection machine which makes it even more nonsensical. Why bother creating a machine on quantum mechanics when what Forest really wanted was a machine that creates virtual reality?

First thing is that, if the many world theory is right, when he does upload himself inside, he will be forced to experience an infinite number of timelines including one that involves a dead Amaya again.

That wouldn't really matter since every instance of Forest in each universe would be exactly the same Forest at the time of his death in that elevator. He wouldn't technically be one person anymore in that simulation.

There’s just one world, which means he can recreate his daughter exactly as she was, and rejoin his life exactly as it was without the car crash happening.

If all he wanted was to have his daughter back exactly as it was, all he needed to do was have the computer map out all the history up until the car crash, create a simulation with that one change (the car not crashing) and then upload himself into it/commit suicide. He doesn't need to map the point after the car crash nor see the future since this stuff wouldn't be needed/relevant and can be created ad hoc.

Otherwise, this is a bit head canon but if their world is deterministic and the computer is the world/god as he says, if he could move his conscience to the past, maybe he could change the world entirely and not just in the simulation. So he would become like a god I guess. I really thought they were going for something like that originally.

I don't think time travel of any kind was really intended for the show. The ending seems to be aiming for religious allegory (resurrection, godhood) rather than holding true to the science and philosophy it pretended to be about for the whole series.

[sandwich_bird]

So your present self's consciousness would supplant the consciousness of your past/future self's? That would be bad in so many ways...

Not exactly supplant because you will experience what you're predicted to experience and you can't change it. So lets say tomorrow you would eat cheerios for breakfast. If you use the machine and go to that point, you will experience eating cheerios and you can't do anything else. You just experience what you would experience and when you come back you have the memory of what you experienced. And that was a big thing too because, in the future, you of course have more knowledge than you had in the past but, just going to your future self doesn't mean that you also inherit all that knowledge. That is because you don't consciously think about all that you know. So, to acquire future knowledge from your mind, your future self needs to think about that knowledge when you navigate to it. So one thing I had is that the protagonist had figured that one out and she would have specific times during the day where she would think about certain things so that, if she teleports herself to that moment, she can acquire that knowledge. Of course, what she thinks is "knowledge" or facts might not actually be true facts

You probably can guess where I'm going with these sort of things lol. I had more of Death Note vibe going than Devs. It was a lot more about the 4d chess mind games between the protagonist and the antagonist which then would culminate into a more philosophical discussion.

Why are the "future" visions the machine creates restricted and limited to the observers, whilst the "past" visions are not?

Because the machine knows which past events did occur for the observer but can't decide which one will occur. Presumably the machine can show a different version of the past if you asked for it but they never do in the show until the end. They only ask for the past from their timeline. That would be my head canon.

Why is the future vision only grainy specifically after Lily dies? Shouldn't it have gone grainy before that (ie: as she was walking into the the lift) to accommodate the actual variance that took place based on Lily's previous observation of her near future prediction?

Yes, it should be grainy at the moment you pointed out. No reason for it not to. It should start being grainy at any point where there's a crossroad in the timeline and the moment where she steps in is clearly just that. Otherwise it is assumed that there's no crossroad in the future up until the graininess.

That same article I linked further explains that Devs was not actually a prediction machine but a resurrection machine which makes it even more nonsensical. Why bother creating a machine on quantum mechanics when what Forest really wanted was a machine that creates virtual reality?

okayyyy that's just silly. And honestly, if he has the tech to transport his consciousness (and not just clone it inside because that would make even less sense), he could extract his daughter's consciousness before her death and bring her in a robot I guess or someone else's body. That might actually have made more sense overall I think.

That wouldn't really matter since every instance of Forest in each universe would be exactly the same Forest at the time of his death in that elevator. He wouldn't technically be one person anymore in that simulation.

Not sure I follow you. He wouldn't be one person anymore so he would experience an infinite number of timelines where Amaya is dead; shouldn't that matter?

I don't think time travel of any kind was really intended for the show. The ending seems to be aiming for religious allegory (resurrection, godhood) rather than holding true to the science and philosophy it pretended to be about for the whole series.

I suppose yeah. Which is okay I guess

[Turalyon]

Because the machine knows which past events did occur for the observer but can't decide which one will occur. Presumably the machine can show a different version of the past if you asked for it but they never do in the show until the end. They only ask for the past from their timeline. That would be my head canon.

But all the visions, even the past ones, are blurry up until Lyndon incorporates the many worlds theory into the machine. Part of the reason Forest fires Lyndon is because even though the visions are clearer now (plus there's sound to go along with it, too, now!), they can't actually tell whether the visions are of their own timeline or not - it's because he wants to be sure it's his Amaya. It's also why we get to see ghosted multiple variations of the car crash that killed Amaya in that episode of backstory flashbacks where Katie is looking through those visions. Then it kinda gets forgotten conveniently right at the end for a plot twist... Eh.

Yes, it should be grainy at the moment you pointed out. No reason for it not to. It should start being grainy at any point where there's a crossroad in the timeline and the moment where she steps in is clearly just that. Otherwise it is assumed that there's no crossroad in the future up until the graininess.

Funny thing is, the machine should be able to map out variations due to the many worlds theory. The scene where Lyndon falls off the dam has this overlay of multiple instances of Lyndon falling off the damn, which to me signified that Katie always saw this outcome in multiple variations of Lyndon's future. As such, Lily's death was always going to occur whether she shot Forest or not since it was Stewart who was responsible for dropping the lift in both instances. Doesn't explain the fuzziness after her death though. Like I said, I think Katie lied or made some shit up to explain what that fuzziness was in order to manipulate her into that eventual outcome.

okayyyy that's just silly. And honestly, if he has the tech to transport his consciousness (and not just clone it inside because that would make even less sense), he could extract his daughter's consciousness before her death and bring her in a robot I guess or someone else's body. That might actually have made more sense overall I think.

I'm sure he wouldn't want that because it wouldn't be his Amaya. He's so pedantic about that that he denied the many worlds theory as a solution to fix his problems with his machine... which makes no sense later on once we get to the ending since any timeline/universe where Amaya is still alive wouldn't technically be his Amaya anyway since she's actually dead in real life/the prime universe where Forest came from.

Not sure I follow you. He wouldn't be one person anymore so he would experience an infinite number of timelines where Amaya is dead; shouldn't that matter?

Every instance of Forest in each of the infinite universes is the real life Forest up to the point of his death. They are each and all the same person but are not linked or share thoughts etc one would assume. It doesn't matter since there's maybe infinite numbers of universes where Amaya is still dead, there's also an infinite number of universes where she isn't (Forest alludes to something like this in his talk with Lily near the end of the last episode). The show just happens to end on giving us one universe where Amaya is alive - the happy ending.

[Nissa]

Oh gosh, y'all are going on about time travel. Well, have fun debating that. Maybe you'd like Stein's Gate, it's a time travel anime that's up on youtube now.

[Turalyon]

^ It's not actually about time travel, but about determinism vs free will within the sci-fi context of a machine that can supposedly see the past and future.

[sandwich_bird]

But all the visions, even the past ones, are blurry up until Lyndon incorporates the many worlds theory into the machine. Part of the reason Forest fires Lyndon is because even though the visions are clearer now (plus there's sound to go along with it, too, now!), they can't actually tell whether the visions are of their own timeline or not - it's because he wants to be sure it's his Amaya. It's also why we get to see ghosted multiple variations of the car crash that killed Amaya in that episode of backstory flashbacks where Katie is looking through those visions. Then it kinda gets forgotten conveniently right at the end for a plot twist... Eh.

The blurriness before Lyndon's theory I can simply attribute to the calculations being wrong because they're not using the right theory. As for the ghosted visions, maybe I'm remembering that wrong but I thought it was just a stylistic approach to show that multiple things could have happened and it's not what Katie is actually looking at.

Funny thing is, the machine should be able to map out variations due to the many worlds theory. The scene where Lyndon falls off the dam has this overlay of multiple instances of Lyndon falling off the damn, which to me signified that Katie always saw this outcome in multiple variations of Lyndon's future. As such, Lily's death was always going to occur whether she shot Forest or not since it was Stewart who was responsible for dropping the lift in both instances. Doesn't explain the fuzziness after her death though. Like I said, I think Katie lied or made some shit up to explain what that fuzziness was in order to manipulate her into that eventual outcome.

Lol yeahhh now that you mention it, I guess this does shoot down the idea of Lily's decision being the crossroad. If an infinity of things could have happened with Lyndon then this really doesn't make any sense at all. Iirc, he dies in all the visions so it could be argued that it didn't really matter but then if you think of the chaos theory, it still should so I don't buy it.

Oh gosh, y'all are going on about time travel. Well, have fun debating that. Maybe you'd like Stein's Gate, it's a time travel anime that's up on youtube now.

I've watched Stein's Gate 2-4 years back, was fun! I love it when animes keep cliches of the genre to a minimum.


I've been re-watching The Hobbit trilogy and LotR. I watched LotR 1 today and I'm going for 2-3 this week. I gotta say, and pretty much everyone thinks I'm insane for it, I think I prefer the Hobbit lol. The main reason is mostly due to the style matching the seriousness of the story. LotR 1, I find, takes itself way too seriously, to the point where it might even be called pretentious while the Hobbit knows exactly what it's selling. Another thing too is that I much prefer Bilbo over Frodo. With that said tough, I still love LotR 1 and there's a couple of scenes in 2-3 I can't wait to see again.