Writing a New Starcraft 2 storyline

[Nissa]

And to think that you accuse me of making unfounded and wild assumptions...

You're position was that the Dominion is having a real tough time (as a reason for not being established) because Duke would be wasting a lot time fighting rebels. That quote you provided alludes to neither having a tough time, Duke fighting anyone nor that they are specifically rebels (the word militia is not even synonymous with rebels and it could just as easily refer to the fighting forces of the KMC or the UP). You'll have a better chance of convincing me that what Duke is really saying is this: "I don't recognise you guys, but quit what you're doing straight away".

*facepalms* You don't get to say "and to think..." statements when you say stuff like this. :P

Look, my only point in bringing it up was that by Duke's statement, he's clearly not surprised by armed resistance of some kind, and that resistance to Mengsk, in some form or another, exists. The word "militia" means a local, citizen-lead army, after all. Or did you think that people would just listen to Mengsk's speech, go "durrr, mm'kay!" and accept him without question?

Newsflash: even when a side wins a war, and the other side surrenders, the battle isn't over. When Japan surrendered, there were still Japanese military units who were cut off by lack of communication/disbelief in news of surrender that they kept on fighting. Given that the Confederacy was never shown officially surrendering, we have to assume that they didn't, at least until some time after the Terran missions. The more likely scenario is that Mengsk's victories in the first Terran missions only put him in a place where ultimate victory was in sight. The war wasn't over.

Think about it: if Mengsk needed to stop the Protoss from destroying the Zerg he was using, then Mengsk still had plans to use those Zerg against his enemies.

Also, during the last Terran mission -

Arcturus Mengsk: Gentlemen, you've done very well, but remember that we've still got a job to do. The seeds of a new Empire have been sown, and if we hope to reap-

Yeah, definitely sounds like he had no opposition at all to me.

At the time BW starts, both the Zerg and Protoss have suffered massive blows such that they are not in a position to continue harassing the Terrans. You have to keep in mind that from the Overmind campaign onward, Mengsk is free to do whatever he wants without harrassment since the Overmind leaves the Terran sector after having found Kerrigan is bent towards destroying the Protoss and the Protoss have stopped interacting witin Terran space because Tassadar felt guilty and went away. There's plenty of time to contrive a scenario where Mengsk actually established himself as the premiere Terran force when BW begins. That the actual BW starts with a Dominion that seems pretty powerful and that the UED target Mengsk as being a major domestic (Terran-related) threat goes to show how prepared the writers were in making Mengsk seem formidable.

Don't get me wrong though. I've always doubted the verisimilitude of Mengsk being so potentially strong so quickly (once again, with FanaticTemplar) but having Mengsk/Dominion as the Terran aggressor/antagonist instead in BW is no worse than having the UED come out of nowhere and disappear without consequence such as they did.

I sort of agree with your position, only I think the UED are less stupid than having Mengsk be an antagonist. They would even work well if they'd been written more plausibly, and if they were shown to be as cruel as they'd have to be to get Raynor to to oppose them.

As for your statement about the Zerg, not so much. Yes, they did lose the Overmind, but they breed like roaches. They're weakened, but they're not unthreatening. That, and Mengsk would have no way of knowing about the Overmind's existence, much less his death. Either way, assuming that the Zerg aren't a threat is REALLY stupid, given that they did take over human worlds. Also, because Mengsk used them to attack the Confederacy, there's bound to be a large number of them still around in Terran space.

Not to mention that even if the Zerg aren't attacking them directly, Mengsk still has to cope with all the damage they've done.

The only thing "formidible" about Mengsk is the extent he went to defend himself. Your points only prove that he fortified Korhal, (and potentially that Blizzard retconned him to be more defensively strong than he really was). It doesn't establish that he has a vast system of multi-planet defenses that are as equally mighty as the place he holed up when fleeing the UED. In fact, the very idea that an expeditionary force -- one that needed to steal battlecruisers -- could dispose of a standing leader proves that Mengsk, while hard to get at, didn't have the kind of strength he needed to repel the UED.

You're halfway there. You're right the UED weren't thought out that well but this is also such that Mengsk could've really taken the role of the "Terran antagonist" if they had to have a "Terran antagonist" at all. The tweaks necessary to get Mengsk in that role would be no more difficult to believe or sillier than some of the other stuff that had occur to make the UEDs appearance justified

No. Not even close. Mengsk was still struggling with his empire, and he's still a selfish pragmatic. The benefits of him trying to conquer everyone else are outweighed by the costs. He cheated in defeating the Confederacy by using the Zerg, and given he can't do the same to the Zerg or 'Toss, he's very obviously a short-term kind of guy. A long term war with two races he knows next to nothing about? Completely irrational for someone in his position.

It's not just one base. He has military logistics bases on other worlds and God knows how many shipyards with however many BC's he has at is disposal.

Actually, it's been stated many times in novels and such that Mengsk funded Korhal at the expense of everywhere else in the Dominion.

You haven't established why it's worse.

Yes I have. That is, Mengsk has other stuff to deal with (Zerg, opposition, recovery from the events of SC) and it's entirely not in his personality to want to try and conquer races he knows nothing about and can't cheat his way into victory over (like using the Zerg against the Confederacy). Mengsk is insane and not the most intelligent person, but he's exceedingly pragmatic when it comes to personal gain.

Will defeating the Protoss gain him anything? Only if he can find out where they are, then suffer countless casualties and resource loss over the extent of many years. Victory over the Protoss is bound to be hollow in the eyes of his followers if the cost is too high. And that's assuming he wins. Very likely the Protoss would destroy him, and that's assuming the Zerg don't destroy them both for being dumb enough to fight each other when they're around.

It's much the same with the Zerg, though obviously defeating them is more of a pressing issue, because they can't be reasoned with (Kerrigan slightly aside. Slightly). But think about it. How much does Mengsk as an individual benefit from destroying the Zerg, assuming he could actually do it? (Which he clearly can't, given Duke's herp-derpery on Char) Mengsk is more likely to keep the swarm around to use on his enemies, which would likely lead to the swarm taking advantage of it.

Neither point really matters, though, because Mengsk has too much crap on his plate as far as subduing his opposition and strengthening his empire. Saying he has no authority conflicts after SC is like saying the Protoss have no DT/Khala strife after SC. Nonsensical.

Forgive me for not addressing the rest of your post, this is just getting way too long. I think we can both agree that Raynor's and Fenix's involvment with Kerrigan was stupid and ill-explained, though.

[Turalyon]

Look, my only point in bringing it up was that by Duke's statement, he's clearly not surprised by armed resistance of some kind, and that resistance to Mengsk, in some form or another, exists. The word "militia" means a local, citizen-lead army, after all. Or did you think that people would just listen to Mengsk's speech, go "durrr, mm'kay!" and accept him without question?

Think about it: if Mengsk needed to stop the Protoss from destroying the Zerg he was using, then Mengsk still had plans to use those Zerg against his enemies.

Arcturus Mengsk: Gentlemen, you've done very well, but remember that we've still got a job to do. The seeds of a new Empire have been sown, and if we hope to reap-

Yeah, definitely sounds like he had no opposition at all to me.

I'm not sure if you're trolling me or just trying to misunderstand on purpose now... so I'm just going to repeat what I wrote and ask that you read it carefully:

You're position was that the Dominion is having a real tough time (as a reason for not being established) because Duke would be wasting a lot time fighting rebels. That quote you provided alludes to neither having a tough time, Duke fighting anyone nor that they are specifically rebels (the word militia is not even synonymous with rebels and it could just as easily refer to the fighting forces of the KMC or the UP).

I'm not denying that the Dominion didn't/still fight rebels or had some resistance/tough times setting up at all. I'm just denying that all those things can ever be assumed based on that one specific quote from Duke. I'm all for reading into things and speculation but this is a completely different level. Really, your position hinges on that one world, "militia", which is non-specific and isn't even synonymous with "resistance" or "rebels" anyway.

I sort of agree with your position, only I think the UED are less stupid than having Mengsk be an antagonist. They would even work well if they'd been written more plausibly, and if they were shown to be as cruel as they'd have to be to get Raynor to to oppose them.

Given that Mengsk being the primary Terran antagonist in BW is a pipe-dream, it's hard to say which is more or less stupid really. I do agree that the UED are poorly implemented as a villain but that they are good idea with potential and roots.

As for your statement about the Zerg, not so much. Yes, they did lose the Overmind, but they breed like roaches. They're weakened, but they're not unthreatening. That, and Mengsk would have no way of knowing about the Overmind's existence, much less his death. Either way, assuming that the Zerg aren't a threat is REALLY stupid, given that they did take over human worlds. Also, because Mengsk used them to attack the Confederacy, there's bound to be a large number of them still around in Terran space.

Don't let how BW actually turned out affect your view on what the Zerg would've been capable of at the end of Sc1. BW has the propensity of ignoring any affect the loss of the Overmind had on the Zerg and worse (in terms of story), makes them disproportionately over-powered. A proper BW re-write following on from the Overminds death would have to have all the Zerg Broods being uncoordinated and hostile to everyone equally - including themselves, at the least. Remember that much of the reason why the Zerg had as much success as they did was because they were unified, unlike the Terrans and the Protoss, at the time. Without it, the Zerg can be taken advantage of and/or managed in a way that was not possible before. Don't get me wrong, they'd still be dangerous but they should also be much more vulnerable without the Overmind.

As to the knowledge of the Overmind's existence and that we are speculating on a rewritten BW, one can easily transplant the reason how the UED found about the Overmind to Mengsk. Even then, it's not required for Mengsk to know that. Terran scientists were able to somehow guess at the functions and identify of different Broods (as the manual suggests) when the Overmind was around so I'm sure they can observe the difference in behaviour of the Zerg once the Overmind was killed. Afterall, it's not that hard to make up anything more silly than compared to the conceit they used to explain all of the UED's knowledge of the sector.

Not to mention that even if the Zerg aren't attacking them directly, Mengsk still has to cope with all the damage they've done.

He seemed to be doing fine in the BW we got. It's not that hard to re-write it to minimise such damage and chalk it up to how effective Mengsk is as a leader who becomes an eventual threat. It's not as if that's any worse than how they minimised any potential deleterious effect the death of the Overmind had on the Zerg, given that the Zerg threat actually increased (supposedly feral cerebrates and Zerg being coordinated enough to overrun Shakuras - the home of their most dangerous enemy and which needed an all powerful plot device to even stop them) in the BW we got.

The only thing "formidible" about Mengsk is the extent he went to defend himself. Your points only prove that he fortified Korhal, (and potentially that Blizzard retconned him to be more defensively strong than he really was). It doesn't establish that he has a vast system of multi-planet defenses that are as equally mighty as the place he holed up when fleeing the UED. In fact, the very idea that an expeditionary force -- one that needed to steal battlecruisers -- could dispose of a standing leader proves that Mengsk, while hard to get at, didn't have the kind of strength he needed to repel the UED.

"The best defense is a good offense" is a motto that would seem to fit Mengsk quite nicely. Any potential to make a good defense can easily be reworked into having a good offensive capability.

The Dylarian Shipyards is actually a show of the potential of the K-sector Terran army. Had the UED not attacked, we know that the Dominion would have in excess of 20-30 BCs (including Dukes response force) at the least at their command. That seems pretty impressive for a nascent government that is "supposed" to be weak/unprepared.

The military blockade in The Battle for Braxis is an interesting point you bring up given its extensiveness. It's an odd mission overall. The briefing suggests the blockade would be just "a large group of vessels" as Artanis puts it, not a system of platforms and missiles as we soon see when the mission is actually started. Anyways, given the Dominion already held the planet (it's only captured/raided in the next campaign) and had a major city (Boralis) centred on military logistics there, it's hard to think of why such a thing wouldn't have been detected earlier by the Dominion if the space platform blockade was indeed a wholly new contraption set up by the UED. I can only offer speculation unfortunately, but given the UED's propensity to take-over, subvert and steal stuff off the Dominion to carry themselves along, it's possible that the platform already existed (either as part of the Confederacy or built recently by the Dominion?) and the UED were able to take over it.

Continuing on with this theme, the UED continue to use sneaky maneuvers (their attacks on Boralis), steal assets to support themselves (their attack on the Dylarian Shipyards) and rely on speed (their inability to destroy both nucelar silos and physics labs) in taking down the Dominion/Mengsk. This could suggest that the UED force may not all be that powerful in and of itself but more importantly, that the reason they only succeeded against Mengsk was because of a surgical strike that bypassed the full potential strength that Mengsk was capable of. Afterall, if we compare this with the Overminds defeat in Sc1, do we think the Zerg didn't have the strength to repel the Protoss because they were able to surgically get their way into a striking position against the Overmind itself? No, it's because the majority of that strength was bypassed.

No. Not even close. Mengsk was still struggling with his empire, and he's still a selfish pragmatic. The benefits of him trying to conquer everyone else are outweighed by the costs. He cheated in defeating the Confederacy by using the Zerg, and given he can't do the same to the Zerg or 'Toss, he's very obviously a short-term kind of guy. A long term war with two races he knows next to nothing about? Completely irrational for someone in his position.

Aren't you the one that keeps insisting that Mengsk is crazy? You seem to accept his idiocy in the BW we got as an extension of his lunacy, it's not that hard to make it such that once he got into power, he wanted more but not only that he wanted to demonstrate it. Besides, he doesn't need to openly declare his attentions as the big bad, he could just subtly announce his arrival by retaking 9 of those 13 worlds the Terrans lost by blasting away the Zerg there. The Protoss can get involved by having what remaining taskforces that are still hovering around monitoring the Zerg on those worlds being targets for the newly unified Terran presence. Hey presto, we have a proper three-way again!

As I have been saying right from the start, at the least, having him rewritten as the Terran antagonist in BW will make him the more competent and threatening person that Sc1 suggests than compared to the waste of a character he is in BW and Sc2 that followed. It would also solve the problem of the Terrans having such a minimal stake/being left out when the main thrust of Sc seems to be Zerg vs Protoss. These two things (Mengsk being stupid now and the Terrans having no greater role) you've been lamenting all along could've been fixed this way. Where's your solution?

Actually, it's been stated many times in novels and such that Mengsk funded Korhal at the expense of everywhere else in the Dominion.

So what? That still doesn't mean that all he had was one base. He had major and important military assets elsewhere like on Braxis and the Dylarian Shipyards. Even if Korhal was the only base/only important asset, he had to build it up from nothing since the world was a complete desert. To have it terraformed and create a vast city that is Augustgrad in the time between Rebel Yell to when we see it The Iron Fist is actually a testament to how powerful Mengsk can be, thereby supporting his potential to easily be an alternate Terran aggressor in a BW rewrite. This is beside the fact that these books come after the fact and none of what they contain can ever be elucidated (speculated sure) using the game alone, too.

That is, Mengsk has other stuff to deal with (Zerg, opposition, recovery from the events of SC)

I've refuted these. "Dealing with Zerg" is a given - it should be easier to manage without the Overmind controlling them (part of the rewrite would be giving the sense the Zerg actually were weakened in anyway). What opposition and their significance of a threat to Mengsk is speculative given the destruction of 9 of 13 worlds and the promise of Terran unity and protection against the aliens responsible would give Mengsk an edge over any other potential political rival/freedom fighter. The actual recovery is a significant point which I would normally concede to you (because it's the reason why I've always held the Terrans as being generally weak -lore-wise- compared to the other two and that any more such losses would spell certain doom for them) but given that the BW was willing to revise and minimise (or a mild retcon if you will) the trouble Mengsk and the Terrans would've realistically had by giving him a sweet setup that the UED had to get though, a BW rewrite could easily use such a justification, too. That the UED got through it is not a measure of the potential of the idea of having Mengsk fulfilling the role of Terran aggressor in a BW rewrite.

and it's entirely not in his personality to want to try and conquer races he knows nothing about and can't cheat his way into victory over (like using the Zerg against the Confederacy). Mengsk is insane and not the most intelligent person, but he's exceedingly pragmatic when it comes to personal gain.

Mengsk can be both insane and pragmatic when trying to take back the 9 worlds I mentioned in that scenario above. He can see it as a way of securing his powerbase, expand his power and access to resources as well as waging a war on those dastardly xenos who would destroy/take what is rightfully his. It ain't that hard to come up with a justification if you want to include "insane" as a personality trait since anything can be written to be made rationally justifiable to the insane.

Will defeating the Protoss gain him anything? How much does Mengsk as an individual benefit from destroying the Zerg, assuming he could actually do it?

Peace of mind and elimination of dangerous threats that inexplicably (to Mengsk) attacked Terran (his) worlds. Besides, these very same concerns you have apply to the UED - the actual Terran antagonists we got.

Saying he has no authority conflicts after SC is like saying the Protoss have no DT/Khala strife after SC. Nonsensical.

Now you're just strawmanning me. I never said he had no authority conflicts (sure I may not have been clear enough initially, but it's the second time I've had to say this, explicitly, now) if it wasn't clear enough. Just none that seemed significant or were doing any harm due to the considerable Dominion presence we see possibly existing in BW.

Forgive me for not addressing the rest of your post, this is just getting way too long.

That's ok, I was getting worried about the length too. My fault usually - I'm too verbose. Not many can keep up with my stamina...

More than happy for someone else (whoever's keeping up with this, that is) to sub-in!!

[Nissa]

Hey man, I'm just explaining my opinion. It's irrational for Mengsk to want to attack other people when he can't gain in the short-term from it, and the apparent strength he exhibits in BW isn't proof of offensive power, but the effort he'll put into protecting his own hide. Given that an expeditionary force and not an established national power defeated Mengsk, he's clearly not as strong as you state him to be.

Dude, Duke's comment about the militia, given when it was during a mission to get battlecruisers, implies that Duke not only had to deal with this exact kind of trouble before, but that people in militias were involved in it. Why else would he bother bringing up the militias if militias weren't relevant to the situation at hand? Clearly, some citizen's armies are less than pleased with Mengsk.

That's the short version, because I'm exhausted of all this. Yes, the writers somehow could amp up Mengsk's ability and give him knowledge of his enemies, but that doesn't make fighting them worth it. Mengsk wants Korhal, and if he has that, he can allow things like Kerrigan running the Zerg or the existence of the Protoss to continue, unless either of those things interfered with his rule. There's no logical reason for Mengsk to go after his enemies immediately after the events of SC.

There is, however, reason for the UED to go after everyone. Granted, it's a stupid reason (to subdue the alien races and establish their control over K Sector humans), but it is a logical reason (in terms of character, not intelligence) to act generally as they did in the Terran missions. Plus, by having an unfamiliar force come in, there's hilarity in watching them find out about Kerrigan very late, like the herp derps they are. The arrogance of a conquering UPL makes sense.

Basically, what I'm saying is that the UED could have worked if they were written better. Mengsk, on the other hand, had more logical problems on his plate, and his arrogance hadn't yet extended over the whole sector. And haven't to this point, either.

[Turalyon]

Yeah, I know it's your opinion but I'm making a case for a BW rewrite that need not have the UED as the Terran antagonist. Given that most of my justifications of this help rectify some of your biggest concerns about how Mengsk is currently portrayed, I'm not entirely sure why you would resist them so much since the reason why the way he is in Sc2 is all because of the BW we got.

It's irrational for Mengsk to want to attack other people when he can't gain in the short-term from it

What's so irrational about reclaiming the 9 worlds the Terrans lost in Sc1? There's plenty of "gain" for Mengsk. If not material gain alone, it will help cement public opinion of him, help sell him as a viable Terran leader and a potential threat. At the least, it will give the K-sector Terrans the "teeth" that they've been lacking since Sc1 made them that way from the beginning. Besides, you've likened Mengsk to be irrational/crazy as the justification for just being plain dense in BW, attacking other people for no short term gain would seem like a very BW-Mengsk-thing (irrational/crazy) to do anyway. Which lo and behold he does in Sc2 where he pisses away trillions in fighting Raynor.

and the apparent strength he exhibits in BW isn't proof of offensive power, but the effort he'll put into protecting his own hide.

No, it's proof that the writers had already intended Mengsk to be somewhat built up and to have the capability of showing strength in some significant capacity. Knowing that, we can tweak their original intent into rewriting Mengsk into an instigator of trouble.

Given that an expeditionary force and not an established national power defeated Mengsk, he's clearly not as strong as you state him to be.

Given that the rewrite denies the existence of the UED and supplants the "Terran antagonist role" with Mengsk/Dominion, what the UED actually does to Mengsk in the BW we got is irrelevant to the rewrite.

Dude, Duke's comment about the militia, given when it was during a mission to get battlecruisers, implies that Duke not only had to deal with this exact kind of trouble before, but that people in militias were involved in it. Why else would he bother bringing up the militias if militias weren't relevant to the situation at hand? Clearly, some citizen's armies are less than pleased with Mengsk.

This is you reading too much into one word. If you present that quote to a layman, I can guarantee that they'll interpret it along the lines of it meaning "I don't recognise you but stop what you're doing" and not "You're not the usual scum I'm fighting to help maintain my masters nascent government but stop what you're doing".

There's no logical reason for Mengsk to go after his enemies immediately after the events of SC.

Or ever really. You're advocating the stagnation of his character and Terrans in general, then lament on how poorly he's been treated when he tries to do something in Sc2 and how the Terrans don't seem relevant in the "three-way".

There is, however, reason for the UED to go after everyone. Granted, it's a stupid reason (to subdue the alien races and establish their control over K Sector humans), but it is a logical reason (in terms of character, not intelligence) to act generally as they did in the Terran missions.

You've been arguing it's stupid for Mengsk to go after everyone and how that's not OK only to then argue it's stupid for the the UED to go after everyone but that's somehow OK. I don't get it. Both reasons are stupid, how's one more justified than the other? The UED should be worse because they literally came out of nowhere - ala Amon - so anything we attribute to them will seem like contrivance and less "believable".

Basically, what I'm saying is that the UED could have worked if they were written better. Mengsk, on the other hand, had more logical problems on his plate, and his arrogance hadn't yet extended over the whole sector. And haven't to this point, either.

I agree with the UED. They would've worked better as an antagonist (but with no gimmicky plot devices) in a Sc2 rewrite where there'd conceivably be more room to flesh them out. As to Mengsk, well, there's been worse continuations of past events (the Zerg being OP in BW is butone thing) in BW than the thought of tweaking Mengsk's position and stance to make him more prominent in a BW rewrite. It's not even that much worse than the UED we got in BW really.

[Nissa]

Tura, I didn't want to turn this into a debate. I just wanted to talk about what I wanted in a Starcraft sequel. Besides, Mengsk isn't the only Terran in the K Sector, and neither does him turning into a complete idiot have anything to do with his offensive ability. He was a moron in SC2 because he failed to subdue the media, spread the dumbest of propaganda, and allowed sensitive information to travel by train without destroying it. And also for prioritizing Raynor, but the thing is, Mengsk is capable of destroying Raynor, because Raynor is the leader of one group, rather than an entire race.

But that's neither here nor there. Can we talk about a new SC2 now?

The obvious solution post BW was for Mengsk to try and get stronger, and then go after/allow Raynor to go after Kerrigan. The dumbest thing about him going after Raynor is that he's destroying the only other person that knows for sure how bad Kerrigan is and is equally willing to destroy her. Other than Zeratul, I guess, but it's only sensible for Mengsk to hide his past from the Protoss. The dynamic between Mengsk and Raynor is interesting, and not one that should be quickly thrown away.

As far as offensive power goes, Mengsk should not be the main human antagonist. SC and BW beat into him (and other characters in the series) the idea that fighting non-Zerg characters is a waste of time. After all, everyone in BW spent the entire game fighting the wrong people (the illogic of such situations aside) until the very last mission. After the battle of the three fleets, and the negotiation that clearly went into the attack, the powers of the K Sector would be more likely to work together than otherwise. Thus, Artanis and Arcturus should be on speaking terms. If Mengsk is to become an antagonist, it will be later on. That is, he'll manipulate Artanis as long as/to the extent he is able, and then either betray Artanis directly, or Artanis can get fed up with him. Thus, Mengsk's direct antagonism should be delayed as long as he thinks he can benefit from talks with the Protoss (and Umoja and Moria, depending on where the story goes). And I'd love to see Mengsk actually learn something about what's going on in the universe, what with the hybrids and their origins. That's a logical way to draw Terrans into things above them.

The solution, if there has to be human antagonism earlier on, is that new characters appear to pick up the slack. These new characters can be literally anything -- Umoja, Moria, some form of rebels, a new power that threatens Mengsk's rule, the UED, or just whoever can be plausibly antagonistic to the other characters, in the form of creating anti-Terran missions. Maybe there needs to be some anti-alien groups out there to undermine the peace talks Mengsk is trying to arrange with the 'Toss. There's a million possiblities.

Anyway, what it all boils down to is that over time, it becomes less and less likely that the powers of the K Sector (Kerrigan/Zerg aside) are going to fight each other over simple disagreements. The Protoss are struggling for survival, Mengsk is struggling to maintain his power, and the Zerg are ever present. One main reason Blizzard's been struggling to write a good ending is that it's very difficult to maintain a logical story and still fit within the premise of three races duking it out for the K Sector. As much as they've sucked at the writing, we shouldn't deny that it's a difficult task.

[Turalyon]

Tura, I didn't want to turn this into a debate. I just wanted to talk about what I wanted in a Starcraft sequel. Besides, Mengsk isn't the only Terran in the K Sector, and neither does him turning into a complete idiot have anything to do with his offensive ability. He was a moron in SC2 because he failed to subdue the media, spread the dumbest of propaganda, and allowed sensitive information to travel by train without destroying it. And also for prioritizing Raynor, but the thing is, Mengsk is capable of destroying Raynor, because Raynor is the leader of one group, rather than an entire race.

But that's neither here nor there. Can we talk about a new SC2 now?

We were doing that up until I commented on Mengsk's inanity/ineffectiveness in BW and how that can actually explain/is consistent with how stupid Mengsk is in Sc2 - and then you disagreed. If you wanted to rewrite Sc2's Mengsk, you have to start from BW. Naturally, I suggested how one could go about that. How would you go about making Mengsk a viable threat in SC2 if we are to keep the Mengsk we had in BW? I'd assume you'd have to take a few liberties and a partial revision (or retcons if you'd prefer), just like I did when speculating on fixing Mengsk from when he actually started going off the rails: BW!

The obvious solution post BW was for Mengsk to try and get stronger, and then go after/allow Raynor to go after Kerrigan. The dumbest thing about him going after Raynor is that he's destroying the only other person that knows for sure how bad Kerrigan is and is equally willing to destroy her. Other than Zeratul, I guess, but it's only sensible for Mengsk to hide his past from the Protoss. The dynamic between Mengsk and Raynor is interesting, and not one that should be quickly thrown away.

Right, so now I'm going to play the role you previously did in trying to shoot down my potential BW rewrite of Mengsk. First things first, how do we even know that Mengsk can even get back his power after having his Dominion dismantled and been humiliated so thoroughly in BW? He has to resort buying a fleet with favours only to lose it and only has a smouldering ruin of a planet to go back to. Given how fickle the Terran lot are, Mengsk had run his course in proving to the masses that he was a capable leader and they would have flocked to someone else by now. The precedent for that rationale? Well Mengsk himself of course set that precedent when he took over from the Confederacy. I can't see why Mengsk would be immune from that apart from plot-armour and author convenience reasons (which to me, is rather telling).

In essence, the least of his problems is Raynor. And, given that Raynor is supposedly railing on (or rather displacing his anger onto) Mengsk because he can't realistically vent his anger and frustration against Kerrigan and the Zerg (a character development that is justifiable but never hinted at or explored in Sc2 - it just happened sometime and are somehow expected to know that it did happen from the get-go), Mengsk is least likely to go after Raynor due to his dire position at the end of BW and that it's really Raynor who has more motivation to gun for him first. If Raynor is harrying Mengsk soon after BW and given Mengsk's weakened state from the end of BW, the believability of him being in a significant threat or a viable character in 4 years time would be very unlikely. That's why they had to minimise/ignore the damage done to the Dominion in BW and retcon the extent of the Terran presence in the K-sector for Sc2.

As far as offensive power goes, Mengsk should not be the main human antagonist. SC and BW beat into him (and other characters in the series) the idea that fighting non-Zerg characters is a waste of time.

This I can agree on. In Sc2, Mengsk makes for a very poor antagonist and yet we had to suffer with two installments with him being such until he was mercifully taken out of the picture.

After all, everyone in BW spent the entire game fighting the wrong people (the illogic of such situations aside) until the very last mission. After the battle of the three fleets, and the negotiation that clearly went into the attack, the powers of the K Sector would be more likely to work together than otherwise. Thus, Artanis and Arcturus should be on speaking terms. If Mengsk is to become an antagonist, it will be later on. That is, he'll manipulate Artanis as long as/to the extent he is able, and then either betray Artanis directly, or Artanis can get fed up with him. Thus, Mengsk's direct antagonism should be delayed as long as he thinks he can benefit from talks with the Protoss (and Umoja and Moria, depending on where the story goes). And I'd love to see Mengsk actually learn something about what's going on in the universe, what with the hybrids and their origins. That's a logical way to draw Terrans into things above them.

Eh, not entirely sold on the Mengsk/Artanis thing. It tends to make the Protoss even more of butt-monkey should they be yet fooled again - especially when this time, it's against a normal human which they would have a better chance of mind-reading! Besides, wouldn't have Raynor's stories about his experiences with Mengsk to Tassadar and Zeratul leaked to Artanis by now? Also, I don't see how the Protoss would benefit with any arrangement with the Terrans given that they're a lesser race that they shouldn't need to interact with anyway.

As to involving Mengsk with the Hybrids, well, given the Terrans are meant to be out of touch with the true nature behind the Zerg and Protoss conflict and that Mengsk being preoccupied with other things to do, his involvement with them will only reek of contrivance. If you wanted the Hybrids somehow affiliated with the Terrans, I think it would've been better to tie them to another Terran faction like the Umojans.

The solution, if there has to be human antagonism earlier on, is that new characters appear to pick up the slack. These new characters can be literally anything -- Umoja, Moria, some form of rebels, a new power that threatens Mengsk's rule, the UED, or just whoever can be plausibly antagonistic to the other characters, in the form of creating anti-Terran missions. Maybe there needs to be some anti-alien groups out there to undermine the peace talks Mengsk is trying to arrange with the 'Toss. There's a million possiblities.

Really, there doesn't need to be a Terran antagonist at all. Well, not to create anti-Terran missions at the least since the Terrans have always been on the receiving end of crap (and it's mostly been their own crap) and that's not going to change. Besides, when I envisaged Mengsk to be the Terran antagonist as replacement for the UED, I didn't want him to be the conqueror type antagonist that the UED were (the BW rewrite would be wonky if the Terran antagonist was just a cut and paste job, even though that possibly is really no less silly than what we got with actual BW) were but rather just an inadvertent one to show that the Terrans had backbone.

Anyway, what it all boils down to is that over time, it becomes less and less likely that the powers of the K Sector (Kerrigan/Zerg aside) are going to fight each other over simple disagreements. The Protoss are struggling for survival, Mengsk is struggling to maintain his power, and the Zerg are ever present. One main reason Blizzard's been struggling to write a good ending is that it's very difficult to maintain a logical story and still fit within the premise of three races duking it out for the K Sector. As much as they've sucked at the writing, we shouldn't deny that it's a difficult task.

Which is why I thought Sc was better off ending it at BW. I know it was far from perfect but they dug themselves in a hole by making the Zerg too OP and Kerrigan too dominant. The only logical sequel that could follow from that was that Kerrigan would always be top-dog and continually keep the Protoss and the Terrans from ever rising to a position of ever realistically challenging her. It's why Sc2 (and any other sequel idea really) had to reek of contrivance in order to continue. It's also probably one of the reasons why I shoot down my own ideas for a sequel rewrite.

[Nissa]

*Sigh* I'm just shooting off ideas, man. I don't want this to be a debate/quote fest. But in any case, yeah, maybe we don't need a Terran antagonist. In a story sense, that is. In a gameplay sense, well, the game has to match the premise.

Eh, while it's true that Mengsk probably would have political competition, I don't quite buy the argument that he wouldn't be able to maintain power after BW. It depends on how he spun the whole UED thing. From the general public's perspective, it may well be that Mengsk, the "great and the magnificent", was ousted by the "evil" UED, an extension of the UPL's attempts to control everything. Mengsk's return could have been hailed as a sign that he was back to save everybody, and the UED couldn't keep him down. But either way, with or without competition, it really does depend more on how it's written. If you have any gameplay interesting ideas that involve Mengsk dealing with rivals, by all means, share.

My point in that paragraph was mainly just to say that Mengsk would care more about eliminating Kerrigan than Raynor, and Raynor would care more about killing Kerrigan than going on an out of character revolution. 'Sall. Basically I just want more scenes of them bickering at each other.

Hm...I don't know, I think the Umojans need more development on their own before they get connected to the hybrids. I don't really see how it's any less of a contrivance than Mengsk -- or how either is really a contrivance at all. That, and I think it's funny to imagine Mengsk's reaction to things that are outside of his realm of understanding.

I disagree with ending it at BW, if only because the story needed some kind of end (though your point is certainly understandible). Honestly, the whole Starcraft: Ghost thing might have been a great idea, as it took Starcraft from an RTS to a shooter, and changing
the game genre enables them to change the way they tell the story. Too bad it didn't work out.

[Turalyon]

Eh, while it's true that Mengsk probably would have political competition, I don't quite buy the argument that he wouldn't be able to maintain power after BW. It depends on how he spun the whole UED thing. From the general public's perspective, it may well be that Mengsk, the "great and the magnificent", was ousted by the "evil" UED, an extension of the UPL's attempts to control everything. Mengsk's return could have been hailed as a sign that he was back to save everybody, and the UED couldn't keep him down. But either way, with or without competition, it really does depend more on how it's written. If you have any gameplay interesting ideas that involve Mengsk dealing with rivals, by all means, share.

The main problem with continuing on with Mengsk just being in power as he was before the UED is that it seems contrived after the complete battering he took in BW. He literally needs to shrug off the consequence of what the UED did to him and that Mengsk be infallible despite being proven to be wholly inadequate as a defender of the Terran people - which is incidentally what Sc2 did. It has also has to treat the remaining K-sector Terran people as being idiotic for backing him again when he lost all his currency/any sense of worth in BW. That's the only way to write Mengsk and still have him relevant and that's what I have against Mengsk being so "lucky".

If I had to write something following on from BW, Mengsk would be left as a footnote who just sits on his world of Korhal not having the power to do anything with Kerrigan making sure that this is so and the Terrans just being in shambles in general. There would be a few Terran leaders from other factions trying to vie for position of top-dog but not one person who is strong or capable enough to unify the Terrans.

My point in that paragraph was mainly just to say that Mengsk would care more about eliminating Kerrigan than Raynor, and Raynor would care more about killing Kerrigan than going on an out of character revolution. 'Sall. Basically I just want more scenes of them bickering at each other.

Oh, that's Ok then. Thing is, given the futility of both Mengsk's and Raynor's vendettas against Kerrigan, it's not unreasonable for one or both of them to give up with Raynor probably being the first since he lacks more resources than Mengsk. Also, Kerrigan has burnt all her bridges with Mengsk and Raynor such that even if they did by chance meet again somehow, she probably won't even deign talk to them nor would they have anything more significant to say than "I really want you dead". Therefore, it's conceivable then that Raynor would vent his rage toward the next and more "gettable" target of Mengsk. Now this may sound like I'm defending WoL here, but I'm not. What I've just written about Raynor's change of target is really assumed knowledge that Blizz/WoL expects of its audience but is by no means contiguous with the last thing shown in BW. Technically, Raynor's revolution against Mengsk is not an impossible development but one that lack connective tissue - it feels like an important piece of the picture had been left out for some reason. That's what's irksome about "character development" that happens off-screen, you can't expect people to take it on faith without any sort of preface.

Hm...I don't know, I think the Umojans need more development on their own before they get connected to the hybrids. I don't really see how it's any less of a contrivance than Mengsk -- or how either is really a contrivance at all. That, and I think it's funny to imagine Mengsk's reaction to things that are outside of his realm of understanding.

Well, I thought I made it clear that everything about a Starcraft sequel is nothing but contrivance, so my suggestion was not free from that assessment either. All I was trying to say (without actually hinting at it admittedly), was that if we had to continue, continue with something we don't know about but has been there in the lore. With the Hybrids, you can keep them under Duran's auspices but have him in league with the Umojans instead of the Dominion, where he can make use of their secretive nature and their scientific acumen.

disagree with ending it at BW, if only because the story needed some kind of end (though your point is certainly understandible).

Be careful here. Do you mean an ending in general or an ending based on a certain expectation? Because really, I was also happy for Sc to end with The Fall and the Protoss being victorious, too. In some ways, I didn't feel BW was necessary for it to continue, but I don't begrudge the ending that BW gave us as being possibly a definitive ending for that universe. Everything was leading up to and spelling out doom and gloom for everyone and everything that was not Zerg and that's what we got - it seemed more definitive than the ending we got in Sc1 because it was so willing to keep the status quo broken whereas the ending of Sc1's was a return to status quo (up until BW came along and negated that). Sure, it's not a happy ending but who says every ending has to be happy and that things have to be tied into a nice little knot? I mean I've heard people complain about the ending of Breaking Bad being too neat and somewhat antithetic to the concept (which is very cynical) of the show but it still worked as an ending.

[Nissa]

The main problem with continuing on with Mengsk just being in power as he was before the UED is that it seems contrived after the complete battering he took in BW. He literally needs to shrug off the consequence of what the UED did to him and that Mengsk be infallible despite being proven to be wholly inadequate as a defender of the Terran people - which is incidentally what Sc2 did. It has also has to treat the remaining K-sector Terran people as being idiotic for backing him again when he lost all his currency/any sense of worth in BW. That's the only way to write Mengsk and still have him relevant and that's what I have against Mengsk being so "lucky".

If I had to write something following on from BW, Mengsk would be left as a footnote who just sits on his world of Korhal not having the power to do anything with Kerrigan making sure that this is so and the Terrans just being in shambles in general. There would be a few Terran leaders from other factions trying to vie for position of top-dog but not one person who is strong or capable enough to unify the Terrans.

There's definite plot-value in what you're saying, but Mengsk is really too interesting a character too ignore. Given that this is the guy who used the Zerg twice to get what he wants, I'd say there's no way he'd let himself become a footnote. He's too demented for that sort of thing, and he'll have some kind of loyal following until he's either put on trial for his crimes or just outright killed. It's just who he is.

Oh, that's Ok then. Thing is, given the futility of both Mengsk's and Raynor's vendettas against Kerrigan, it's not unreasonable for one or both of them to give up with Raynor probably being the first since he lacks more resources than Mengsk. Also, Kerrigan has burnt all her bridges with Mengsk and Raynor such that even if they did by chance meet again somehow, she probably won't even deign talk to them nor would they have anything more significant to say than "I really want you dead". Therefore, it's conceivable then that Raynor would vent his rage toward the next and more "gettable" target of Mengsk. Now this may sound like I'm defending WoL here, but I'm not. What I've just written about Raynor's change of target is really assumed knowledge that Blizz/WoL expects of its audience but is by no means contiguous with the last thing shown in BW. Technically, Raynor's revolution against Mengsk is not an impossible development but one that lack connective tissue - it feels like an important piece of the picture had been left out for some reason. That's what's irksome about "character development" that happens off-screen, you can't expect people to take it on faith without any sort of preface.

I don't know. Raynor's a southerner archetype, and southerners don't really do the whole revolution thing, so long as we have some place to live independently. Only if that independence is threatened do we bother attacking other people. We don't even say the word "revolution" unless that's followed by an "--ary war." That's not a conscious choice, but it's a thing.

But yeah, Raynor is more likely to hold a grudge, because he's more idealistic than pragmatic (as opposed to Mengsk). However, neither of these are the kind of men that would say something and then not follow through. They will do something against Kerrigan -- or would have, if SC2 had been forced to make sense.

Well, I thought I made it clear that everything about a Starcraft sequel is nothing but contrivance, so my suggestion was not free from that assessment either. All I was trying to say (without actually hinting at it admittedly), was that if we had to continue, continue with something we don't know about but has been there in the lore. With the Hybrids, you can keep them under Duran's auspices but have him in league with the Umojans instead of the Dominion, where he can make use of their secretive nature and their scientific acumen.

Mm'kay. Yeah, hybrid association with the Dominion was a retcon anyway. Unless they plan on pinning that on Valerian, it's dumb. Mengsk is the last person to hybridize two races, particularly the two ones that give him the most trouble.

Be careful here. Do you mean an ending in general or an ending based on a certain expectation? Because really, I was also happy for Sc to end with The Fall and the Protoss being victorious, too. In some ways, I didn't feel BW was necessary for it to continue, but I don't begrudge the ending that BW gave us as being possibly a definitive ending for that universe. Everything was leading up to and spelling out doom and gloom for everyone and everything that was not Zerg and that's what we got - it seemed more definitive than the ending we got in Sc1 because it was so willing to keep the status quo broken whereas the ending of Sc1's was a return to status quo (up until BW came along and negated that). Sure, it's not a happy ending but who says every ending has to be happy and that things have to be tied into a nice little knot? I mean I've heard people complain about the ending of Breaking Bad being too neat and somewhat antithetic to the concept (which is very cynical) of the show but it still worked as an ending.

...I mean a good ending. Not quite sure what you mean by "certain expectation." While ending with "The Fall" makes perfect sense, the success of Starcraft pretty much guaranteed it wasn't going to end there.

[Turalyon]

There's definite plot-value in what you're saying, but Mengsk is really too interesting a character too ignore. Given that this is the guy who used the Zerg twice to get what he wants, I'd say there's no way he'd let himself become a footnote. He's too demented for that sort of thing, and he'll have some kind of loyal following until he's either put on trial for his crimes or just outright killed. It's just who he is.

Mengsk was interesting. He can't use the Zerg anymore, because Kerrigan is in full control of them and it's not as if he has much choice in not being a foot note because Kerrigan's vendetta against him is includes making sure he never rises to power again (as she says in BW).

I don't know. Raynor's a southerner archetype, and southerners don't really do the whole revolution thing, so long as we have some place to live independently. Only if that independence is threatened do we bother attacking other people. We don't even say the word "revolution" unless that's followed by an "--ary war." That's not a conscious choice, but it's a thing.

But yeah, Raynor is more likely to hold a grudge, because he's more idealistic than pragmatic (as opposed to Mengsk). However, neither of these are the kind of men that would say something and then not follow through. They will do something against Kerrigan -- or would have, if SC2 had been forced to make sense.

Raynor would seem to disagree: "Let's kick this revolution into overdrive!"

Either way, exchange the word with rebellion, open hostility or vendetta if it doesn't suit. The original point still makes sense.

Oh, I'm sure both would have tried to keep their word - which is something I would have like to see as a means of continuity - but Sc2 goes along with the assumed knowledge that while they did try, the task was impossible and so they reverted to easier targets such as each other. I guess that's to be expected when you put in an arbitrary 4 years in which nothing at all happened.

Yeah, hybrid association with the Dominion was a retcon anyway. Unless they plan on pinning that on Valerian, it's dumb. Mengsk is the last person to hybridize two races, particularly the two ones that give him the most trouble.

It's hard to know when the association started, so it could've been a fairly recently development. Besides, I get the feeling that Mengsk and Valerian aren't actually aware of the Hybrids specifically and that Narud had only been using the Dominion's resources and the Moebius Foundation as a cover to hide his work with them. If that's the case, we could've transplanted them to another Terran faction as a means to explore some of the more neglected Terran aspects.

...I mean a good ending. Not quite sure what you mean by "certain expectation." While ending with "The Fall" makes perfect sense, the success of Starcraft pretty much guaranteed it wasn't going to end there.

A "good ending" is relative and usually entails certain expectations (namely yours) that have to be met to be considered "good". Given that Starcraft's story, on a very broad level, is about a conflict that embroils three groups the ending of SC1 makes it such that the three groups have all fought themselves to a standstill - sure the story could continue, but it doesn't need to. In BW, where we have the forced continuation of SC1, the ending is even more definitive than the first in that the 3-way conflict that the premise is based on is shattered forever with one of the groups being the outstanding and most dominant victor. Any such continuation from here would be more difficult since it'd likely be unidirectional and therefore pointless unless contrivances were to occur - which is what Sc2 had to utilise in order to continue. An ending to a story should be just that, and end - it shouldn't feel beholden to continue because of financial reasons or for the sake of continuance or for the sake to appease a certain section of fans. There's a reason why sequelitis exists.