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[Aldrius]

Authorial intrusion seems appropriate.

But I mean even that's just a fancy way of saying the events/characters feel contrived or artificial.

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Authorial intrusion seems appropriate.

But I mean even that's just a fancy way of saying the events/characters feel contrived or artificial.

[Turalyon]

But I mean even that's just a fancy way of saying the events/characters feel contrived or artificial.

And what's wrong with that? That's been a legitimate form of criticising literature since... well, criticism first became a thing. I can objectively criticise, as an example, Kerrigan's character arc in BW as being ludicrously easy due to authorial intrusion since characters were doing seemingly stupid things (Zeratul just letting her go after she kills Aldaris when he seems so vehement about it being a "Protoss matter") and that she has a hitherto unexplained but specifically powerful ability that helps steer the plot (her control of Razagal is an obvious artifice of the author to control how the story turns out at the end of BW). That being said, I can still divorce that criticism from whether I like the character (I actually do) because aside from the appeal of having kick-ass female character, the actions she carries out can be explained due to her tortured recent past and not just due to some inherent plot-derived gimmickry (that's why I dislike the whole split personality thing with Kerrigan/that her evilness in BW was due wholly to Zerg infestation).

[Nissa]

The idea that George RR Martin would have a Mary Sue makes me laugh.

Y'know, I don't actually think that Kerrigan's evil was entirely due to infestation. She lived her whole life being someone else's puppet, and with Mengsk finally betraying her, she used her Zerg transition as a means to get revenge on anyone who ever hurt her, as well as take as much control as possible so no one could hurt her ever again. Like when she speaks of getting "revenge" on Zeratul (the mission before the BW secret mission), it was for something as petty as having interfered for her once on Char. But that incident hurt her fragile ego, and that means Zer has to suffer for his (and Tassadar's) "sin." Which is why Kerrigan let him find out about the Matriarch instead of continuing to use her -- hurting Zeratul was a priority over dominating the Protoss.

[Aldrius]

Well I think the Matriarch had pretty much lived out her usefulness at that point, but, yeah, way back in like... 08 I think I wrote a whole article surmising that very point. That Kerrigan's 'transformation' was a psychological one more than a physiological one. It's consistent with what a lot of trauma victims go through and how they begin to behave. Obviously they don't start trying to kill everybody, but the aversion to ever being vulnerable and constantly mistrusting others is definitely a big part of that.

And what's wrong with that?

Never said anything was wrong with it, just saying it's kind of a fancy way of saying something which is really simple. That the whole Mary Sue problem is rooted in contrived writing more than it is any specific conventions of the actual writing itself.

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Well I think the Matriarch had pretty much lived out her usefulness at that point, but, yeah, way back in like... 08 I think I wrote a whole article surmising that very point. That Kerrigan's 'transformation' was a psychological one more than a physiological one. It's consistent with what a lot of trauma victims go through and how they begin to behave. Obviously they don't start trying to kill everybody, but the aversion to ever being vulnerable and constantly mistrusting others is definitely a big part of that.

[Nissa]

Well I think the Matriarch had pretty much lived out her usefulness at that point, but, yeah, way back in like... 08 I think I wrote a whole article surmising that very point. That Kerrigan's 'transformation' was a psychological one more than a physiological one. It's consistent with what a lot of trauma victims go through and how they begin to behave. Obviously they don't start trying to kill everybody, but the aversion to ever being vulnerable and constantly mistrusting others is definitely a big part of that.

We had someone on here, I forget who, saying that it was dumb of Kerrigan to reveal she'd taken over Raszagal's mind. If she'd allowed Ras to go back, she could have had important intel on the Protoss. However, that's only true in context of conquering the Protoss, and Kerrigan's behavior is clearly based on her past pain, rather than simple conquest.

[Turalyon]

Well I think the Matriarch had pretty much lived out her usefulness at that point

Not sure what you mean here. The Matriarch was never a character to begin with and therefore had no "usefulness" within the story beyond acting as, first, an expository device and then, a plot device that artificially jacked-up Kerrigan's power level (what with her having unbreakable control over to her). This affects the scene where Zeratul is forced to kill her, which while effective and affecting to a degree, is somewhat contrived because of the previous setup that brought us to that point.

That Kerrigan's 'transformation' was a psychological one more than a physiological one. It's consistent with what a lot of trauma victims go through and how they begin to behave. Obviously they don't start trying to kill everybody, but the aversion to ever being vulnerable and constantly mistrusting others is definitely a big part of that.

This and what Nissa said is why Kerrigan was a fascinating character. It's kind of ironic that this motivation is very similar to the antagonists of another (and to me, great) old sci-fi game that also happens to bear the initials SC: Star Control.

Never said anything was wrong with it, just saying it's kind of a fancy way of saying something which is really simple.

It's not that fancy, it's just two words that also happen to be self-explanatory... unlike the term "Mary Sue". It's an (possible) explanation for why something is seemingly occurring in a story - saying something's contrived doesn't give us an explanation for why it feels that way. It's not the only explanation to describe why a character/event may feel contrived/artificial (eg: poor world-building is different from authorial intrusion even though they both involve faults of the author) but it's still way more informative than just saying "Mary Sue".

[Nissa]

Not sure what you mean here. The Matriarch was never a character to begin with and therefore had no "usefulness" within the story beyond acting as, first, an expository device and then, a plot device that artificially jacked-up Kerrigan's power level (what with her having unbreakable control over to her). This affects the scene where Zeratul is forced to kill her, which while effective and affecting to a degree, is somewhat contrived because of the previous setup that brought us to that point.

I disagree. The Matriarch had plenty of potential. The fact that she had no explanation was a waste of her potential, rather than a lack of it. More than anything else, she served as an addition to Zeratul's character. Note that she's about the opposite of Aldaris. Instead of being authoritative, she is patient and noninsistent. This reveals a lot about who Zeratul trusts in authority -- that is, someone who allows her followers to do as they see is wise, but guides them with her years of experience and knowledge. I like the dynamic the situation implies.

[Turalyon]

The Matriarch had plenty of potential. The fact that she had no explanation was a waste of her potential, rather than a lack of it.

Any new character has potential. It's just in this case, it wasn't really full realised. That's what I meant by "never a character to begin with".

More than anything else, she served as an addition to Zeratul's character. Note that she's about the opposite of Aldaris. Instead of being authoritative, she is patient and noninsistent. This reveals a lot about who Zeratul trusts in authority -- that is, someone who allows her followers to do as they see is wise, but guides them with her years of experience and knowledge. I like the dynamic the situation implies.

Tassadar pretty much served as this long before we knew of Raszagal. As it is, Raszagal just seems kind of tacked on since we only get hearsay that she is wise and experienced, not any real display of it. She is knowledgeable in the way that she is a mouthpiece for exposition and about what we need to do rid Shakuras of Zerg and that's pretty much it. Then she gets captured and is revealed to be controlled all along - so really, we know nothing of what Raszagal was actually like all along. Besides, it's kind of odd that Zeratul would defer to any authority figurehead, no matter how "kind and wise" that leader may espouse to be.

[Nissa]

Tassadar pretty much served as this long before we knew of Raszagal. As it is, Raszagal just seems kind of tacked on since we only get hearsay that she is wise and experienced, not any real display of it. She is knowledgeable in the way that she is a mouthpiece for exposition and about what we need to do rid Shakuras of Zerg and that's pretty much it. Then she gets captured and is revealed to be controlled all along - so really, we know nothing of what Raszagal was actually like all along. Besides, it's kind of odd that Zeratul would defer to any authority figurehead, no matter how "kind and wise" that leader may espouse to be.

Tassadar served as that role?

Tassadar -- impulsive, determined, self-righteous
Raszagal -- calm, patient, experienced

Tassadar didn't serve that same role. Given that Zeratul mentioned his training in Dark Templar practices, it's presumable that the two of them were on a more equal standing -- Zeratul taught Tass the DT ways, and Tassadar handled overall military questions when the two fought together. Zeratul clearly did not see a ~400 year younger guy as his leader.

I've mentioned this before in other posts (maybe you weren't in those threads), but Zeratul needs help with leadership. Given his dialogue to Aldaris in SC, it's clear he was more of a person to wander around the universe, rather than stick to one place and try to create a lasting settlement. This, combined with allowing Tassadar to determine overall military strategy on Aiur (you'll notice Zeratul tended to do things like destroy cerebrates rather than plan much), indicates that Zer is the sort of guy who is a very detail-oriented leader, in that he's good for completing specific objectives. As a result, he has trouble with larger-scale leadership, such as large-scale attack strategies or figuring out how the Protoss in general can reach their ultimate goals. Zer's more of a "how can I infiltrate this battlecruiser?" rather than a "what's the best way to destroy the Zerg on this occupied planet?"

Thus, Zer does need a leader who has large-scale goals in mind (even if these goals are as simple as "survive"). Given that Zer only knew Tassadar for a short time, clearly Tass does not fill that role on a regular basis. Raszagal, on the other hand, is a calm person who, given Zer's already mentioned travels, clearly doesn't care to keep a firm hand on controlling the guy. This is the kind of leader Zeratul needs: someone who is there when he needs them, but allows him to act autonomously.

[Aldrius]

The Matriarch was never a character to begin with and therefore had no "usefulness" within the story beyond acting as, first, an expository device and then, a plot device that artificially jacked-up Kerrigan's power level (what with her having unbreakable control over to her). This affects the scene where Zeratul is forced to kill her, which while effective and affecting to a degree, is somewhat contrived because of the previous setup that brought us to that point.

I meant to Kerrigan. I think after being captured, the old Protoss woman wasn't going to really be all that useful to her.

I mean I guess it was 'dumb', but Raszagal had served her primary purpose at that point anyway.

As for her as a character, I think it does say a lot about Zeratul. That he has a character he cares about. As an individual I guess she's not that interesting (though I enjoy the actress and her design is cool), but I like that relationship.

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The Matriarch was never a character to begin with and therefore had no "usefulness" within the story beyond acting as, first, an expository device and then, a plot device that artificially jacked-up Kerrigan's power level (what with her having unbreakable control over to her). This affects the scene where Zeratul is forced to kill her, which while effective and affecting to a degree, is somewhat contrived because of the previous setup that brought us to that point.

I meant to Kerrigan. I think after being captured, the old Protoss woman wasn't going to really be all that useful to her.

I mean I guess it was 'dumb', but Raszagal had served her primary purpose at that point anyway.

As for her as a character, I think it does say a lot about Zeratul. That he has a character he cares about. As an individual I guess she's not that interesting (though I enjoy the actress and her design is cool), but I like that relationship.