LotV Trailer!

[DonnyZeDoof]

Aside from focusing on the task at hand with subduing the Protoss, the Overmind wasn't "troubled" by anything else nor were there any indications to think otherwise. No-one knew that the Overmind was not metaphysically free in comparison to any other character at the time.

For example, it's like saying it's somehow ok to assume that Raynor has been always metaphysically free but somehow, not the Overmind. So therefore it's ok for the Overmind to be revealed as not being metaphysically free later but not ok for Raynor to be revealed as not being metaphysically free later. The problem is the underlying initial assumption. Unless there was something to shake the underlying assumption that all characters are free to take their own actions initially (there wasn't for the Overmind), one cannot just come and say later that the Overmind was never metaphysically free and think that's acceptable.

Can you apply that kind of reason to the Raynor X Kerrigan shipping in SC2?

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Aside from focusing on the task at hand with subduing the Protoss, the Overmind wasn't "troubled" by anything else nor were there any indications to think otherwise. No-one knew that the Overmind was not metaphysically free in comparison to any other character at the time.

For example, it's like saying it's somehow ok to assume that Raynor has been always metaphysically free but somehow, not the Overmind. So therefore it's ok for the Overmind to be revealed as not being metaphysically free later but not ok for Raynor to be revealed as not being metaphysically free later. The problem is the underlying initial assumption. Unless there was something to shake the underlying assumption that all characters are free to take their own actions initially (there wasn't for the Overmind), one cannot just come and say later that the Overmind was never metaphysically free and think that's acceptable.

Can you apply that kind of reason to the Raynor X Kerrigan shipping in SC2?

[ragnarok]

Thank you, Turalyon. This is the exact sort of thing why I never base anything I say about Starcraft characters on anything besides the original games and the manual. Too often SC2 has mangled the characters, turning them into people they aren't.

I wouldn't really say that WoL mangled Raynor. It's just that they should have done a better job in the books or something to show his rage turn to guilt after Fenix's death. HotS certainly mangled Kerrigan's character more though. Even in Flashpoint she was much more regretful of her actions, though at the end of the book she DID shift most of that onto Mengsk.

[Turalyon]

Can you apply that kind of reason to the Raynor X Kerrigan shipping in SC2?

That's different. There were some hints of a 'ship being possible in Sc1 as opposed to having no hints that the Overmind was not metaphysically free in Sc1. Still, whether we could tell it was going to be the type of 'ship that could transcend all adversity (as it does in Sc2) is another thing, too. For all that we last saw of Raynor in BW, it seemed to suggest it wouldn't.

[ragnarok]

That's different. There were some hints of a 'ship being possible in Sc1 as opposed to having no hints that the Overmind was not metaphysically free in Sc1. Still, whether we could tell it was going to be the type of 'ship that could transcend all adversity (as it does in Sc2) is another thing, too. For all that we last saw of Raynor in BW, it seemed to suggest it wouldn't.

From what I got out of a ship being possible in SC1, it was no different than any other regular ship. This you can consider another flaw in WoL for the Hyperion being OPed. It's not like Kerrigan even INTENTIONALLY allowed Raynor to escape Mar Sara at the beginning of WoL.

[KaiserStratosTygo]

No offense to Gradius, because we are long standing friends and I respect him, but this time, his critique was not spot on, and I have yet to find the time to take that editorial apart.

Sc2's flaws are not related to this mixing of scifi and fantasy because, in all honesty, Blizzard did a great job with it. Many good stories mix the 2 in clever ways, and Sc2 has done so. Hell even SC1 did it. The flaw has been in the misconception that the mixing itself is wrong for Starcraft, and that's a core concept in Gradius' review.
I understand why you got influenced, but the fact remains : his criticism is flawed.

I should really post a good breakdown of that review soon...

<3 Gradius

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No offense to Gradius, because we are long standing friends and I respect him, but this time, his critique was not spot on, and I have yet to find the time to take that editorial apart.

Sc2's flaws are not related to this mixing of scifi and fantasy because, in all honesty, Blizzard did a great job with it. Many good stories mix the 2 in clever ways, and Sc2 has done so. Hell even SC1 did it. The flaw has been in the misconception that the mixing itself is wrong for Starcraft, and that's a core concept in Gradius' review.
I understand why you got influenced, but the fact remains : his criticism is flawed.

I should really post a good breakdown of that review soon...

<3 Gradius

"Sc2's flaws are not related to this mixing of scifi and fantasy because, in all honesty, Blizzard did a great job with it."

Nope not at all, now it's a ridiculous "anything goes" sort of thing with magic macguffins and idiotic prophecies instead of Sci Fi intrigue.

Also there was NO prophecy arc in the original game nor in the sort of poopy brood war.

[KaiserStratosTygo]

I'm just mad they tried to make the Overmind not so bad. The Overmind was sick, evil, and we spend most of the games trying to destroy him or his clone (I guess that's what you'd call the second one). To make him a "good" guy undermines everything the player fought for in the first games.

That's not accurate either, it was neither good nor evil, it was beyond archetypes like that, beyond morality.

It was a force of nature and as such the original non-Kerrigan swarm was as well.

But yeah, now they f'd him up

[ragnarok]

That's not accurate either, it was neither good nor evil, it was beyond archetypes like that, beyond morality.

It was a force of nature and as such the original non-Kerrigan swarm was as well.

But yeah, now they f'd him up

I wouldn't entirely say that. The Overmind didn't have any morality even before Amon's corruption. The Xel'Naga merely used it to make sure the Zerg would eventually merge peacefully with the Protoss to form the new generation of Xel'Naga. In that aspect they were faced with the same problem Amon faced, because the primal Zerg may not follow.

[Gradius]

No offense to Gradius, because we are long standing friends and I respect him, but this time, his critique was not spot on, and I have yet to find the time to take that editorial apart.

Sc2's flaws are not related to this mixing of scifi and fantasy because, in all honesty, Blizzard did a great job with it. Many good stories mix the 2 in clever ways, and Sc2 has done so. Hell even SC1 did it. The flaw has been in the misconception that the mixing itself is wrong for Starcraft, and that's a core concept in Gradius' review.
I understand why you got influenced, but the fact remains : his criticism is flawed.

I should really post a good breakdown of that review soon...

<3 Gradius

<3

It's my personal opinion that this prophecy crap doesn't belong in sci-fi, or at least the way Blizzard executed it. But actually, the core concept of my review is that it's lazy and flawed writing:

Regardless of whether other sci-fi universes make use of the prophecy plot device, it does not seem like something that belongs in StarCraft. Prophecies belong in medieval universes like Warcraft because they have always been the area of mystics, gypsies and charlatans. It is an extremely weak theme and quite disappointing that the writers had to resort to it. It requires that characters put off all logical and natural actions in favor of advancing the plot towards the way the writers want it to go. Before StarCraft II was released, fans wondered how other characters were going to interact with Kerrigan now that she had backstabbed everyone and proved irrefutably that she isn’t to be trusted. Clearly, some writing magic would be required to drive an interesting story. The effort made however, is beyond lazy. The prophecy mandates that everybody has to work with Kerrigan or else the galaxy will explode. It also mandates that only a select individual is capable of stopping the coming conflict, and nobody else.

The prophecy wasn't even necessary. Kerrigan would have fought Amon anyway, the other factions would have distrusted her anyway, and Zeratul's discovery at Dark Origins and subsequent travels is all the foreshadowing for this conflict that one would need. They could have replaced this hackneyed cliche with actual character motivations. What was the point..?

I would never call the original games political (factional, yes, but not political).

Seems like an arbitrary distinction. A faction is political.

But what I got from SC1 was the sense of the ensemble. A group of characters, even the zerg, defying the odds, whether it be overthrowing the Confederacy, saving the protoss race, or even toppling said protoss race.

Nobody really gets to "defy the odds". Raynor never got to replace the corrupt government he grew up with with a better one. The protoss never got to save their planet. Fenix and the Overmind never got to live. Raynor never got to save Kerrigan.

Shit happened, and the characters (who I love) reacted accordingly. That's it. It wasn't Shakespeare, but it was a largely believable and interesting universe.

I got invested in the characters because of the characters themselves, not the circumstances. If anything, I like the SC2 characters more because its their own characterization that drives their actions (Raynor's relationship with Mengsk and Kerrigan, Kerrigan's relationship with Raynor and Mengsk). It's focused on the characters, not the setting that they're in. It's why I'm iffy about LotV because it seems more focused on the conflict than the characters involved in it.

It's the circumstances that break all suspension of disbelief for me. Sure, Raynor wants to right all his wrongs and deinfest Kerrigan. Doesn't mean he should be allowed to. Sure, it'd be nice if a small, underfunded rebel group could break open the most highly guarded prison in the sector or defeat the Fleet of the Executor, but that shouldn't be possible either. Except it does happen, because Raynor is Metzen's favorite character. Like some fairy tale, reality warps around him to fit his whims and desires, and that's not a true test of character, it's just player aggrandizement.

[ragnarok]

The prophecy wasn't even necessary. Kerrigan would have fought Amon anyway, the other factions would have distrusted her anyway, and Zeratul's discovery at Dark Origins and subsequent travels is all the foreshadowing for this conflict that one would need. They could have replaced this hackneyed cliche with actual character motivations. What was the point..?

Hence the frustration for more answers in LotV. HotS fell flat in that it revealed too little for the prophecy and everything. If it revealed more, the Zerus arc could have served a better purpose.

We also don't know WHERE Zeratul traveled to. Before WoL, all we know is he went through the wormhole from the phoenix creatures birthed from the Xel'Naga temples and that's it. Now, if the clues were brought back from THERE, it would have made things more interesting, not just to places like Ulaan, Zhakul, and then Aiur.

[TheEconomist]

But that Duran Ball Z fight, though. That was closure to the arc. That was worth waiting a decade and a half for by itself.

</sarcasm>