LotV Trailer!

[Hawki]

Sc2's flaws are not related to this mixing of scifi and fantasy because, in all honesty, Blizzard did a great job with it. Many good stories mix the 2 in clever ways, and Sc2 has done so. Hell even SC1 did it.

Pretty much, but there's nothing I've seen in either game that makes me want to dub either science fantasy. Granted, what crosses the line from sci-fi to sci-fa is very subjective, but in contrast to medias I do consider sci-fa (Destiny, Warhammer 40,000, Doctor Who, Star Wars, etc.), I don't think StarCraft ever crossed over into them, or if it's in their league, was in their league from SC1.

As for Gradius, well, there's a quote I remember from Subjection:

What drew me to the StarCraft universe was its dark tone and setting based on political infighting. StarCraft and Brood War were games that had true atmosphere. The worldbuilding, sounds, and style of the original StarCraft campaigns are things that I've tried to emulate in Subjection. One thing I particularly enjoyed about the plot was the feeling of danger -that nobody was safe. Even though the setting is clearly fantastical, it was so easy to get invested in the characters and background because of how brutal the universe was.

All I can honestly say is "more power to you," but that was never what drew me into SC1 - at the least, I would never call the original games political (factional, yes, but not political). But what I got from SC1 was the sense of the ensemble. A group of characters, even the zerg, defying the odds, whether it be overthrowing the Confederacy, saving the protoss race, or even toppling said protoss race. I got invested in the characters because of the characters themselves, not the circumstances. If anything, I like the SC2 characters more because its their own characterization that drives their actions (Raynor's relationship with Mengsk and Kerrigan, Kerrigan's relationship with Raynor and Mengsk). It's focused on the characters, not the setting that they're in. It's why I'm iffy about LotV because it seems more focused on the conflict than the characters involved in it.

[Turalyon]

The Overmind revealing its "prophecy" later in Broodwar does not change the fact that it used the exact same story tool in Broodwar, and no one gave a damn.

I didn't say it was revealed in BW. The truth of the Overmind's motivations is only revealed in Sc2. That's why "no-one gave a damn" about it then, because there was no prophecy or revelations about the Overmind then.

You're missing the point: The Overmind was not retconned when it was prophesying about assimilating the Protoss in Broodwar. What happened in SC2 was 100% acceptable, and was not an actual retcon. Just a perception by you. The fact remains that prophesying started with the Overmind before SC2 was ever in the picture, and apparently no one was complaining about it then.

There is no reason to call things being "retconned" now when the SC2 story is using the same story-telling tool as SC1 did.

You seem to infer that "retcon" means something is "bad". I do not. A retcon is simply a trope - all tropes are neutral and are things to describe a certain pattern that tend to occur in workds of fiction. A retcon is simply new information that comes chronologically later in that fictional universe that is designed to smooth over a perceived inconsistency in the chronological past of that universe. That is all.

Before Sc2 was even known to exist, it therefore cannot be said that the Overmind was prophesying no matter how you spin it. You can speculate, but it was never concrete. This is why no one complained then - it was all just fun speculation.

Just because it "fits" doesn't make it any less than a retcon because retcons, by their nature, are supposed to seemingly "fit". "Bad" retcons are when that "fit" is not complete or causes other problems.

This was "foretold" by the Overmind, and it used predictive results as part of its "plan" to complete the goal of the Xel'Naga, in its perception in the story. Nothing different at all from an actual prophecy. As I said before, it was just named differently, but was exactly the same thing. Just because Zeratul used the term "prophecy", you seem to be having a problem with that.

The "prophecy" is only part of the problem when it comes to the Overmind. The biggest issue is that we are given no indication that the Overmind was metaphysically not free in Sc1 whereas Sc2 adopts that as fact as if it was Ok. One can only imagine how Zerg fans getting upset about having their poster-boy regressed in such an unwholesome manner.

[ragnarok]

The "prophecy" is only part of the problem when it comes to the Overmind. The biggest issue is that we are given no indication that the Overmind was metaphysically not free in Sc1 whereas Sc2 adopts that as fact as if it was Ok. One can only imagine how Zerg fans getting upset about having their poster-boy regressed in such an unwholesome manner.

For me it was difficult to tell if the Overmind was even troubled by something back in SC1. Could you tell that?

[Nissa]

I'm just mad they tried to make the Overmind not so bad. The Overmind was sick, evil, and we spend most of the games trying to destroy him or his clone (I guess that's what you'd call the second one). To make him a "good" guy undermines everything the player fought for in the first games.

[ragnarok]

I'm just mad they tried to make the Overmind not so bad. The Overmind was sick, evil, and we spend most of the games trying to destroy him or his clone (I guess that's what you'd call the second one). To make him a "good" guy undermines everything the player fought for in the first games.

Along those lines. The SC1 manual made it seem like it was just very ambitious. That being said we don't really know what its personality was like BEFORE Amon corrupted it.

[Nissa]

Along those lines. The SC1 manual made it seem like it was just very ambitious. That being said we don't really know what its personality was like BEFORE Amon corrupted it.

I do, because I remember before Starcraft was corrupted. Amon himself is a retcon, and therefore he's part of the problem.

[DonnyZeDoof]

Essentially what StarCraft 2 and the many of the novels have tried to do is turn all the villains into more 'grey' villains.

Kerrigan is pure evil in BW? Make her grey in SC2.

Overmind is pure evil in SC1? Make him grey in SC2.

Mengsk leaves Kerrigan on Tarsonis in SC1? Invent some story of him taking revenge on her for the murder of his family and insert it into a novel.

The only one that hasn't fitted this pattern yet is Amon. Maybe that'll be the big plot twist of LotV? Amon isn't a bad person. He's just misunderstood and only Kerrigan can emphasise with him because she was misunderstood as well (by the entire fan base) before SC2 as well.

- - - Updated - - -

Essentially what StarCraft 2 and the many of the novels have tried to do is turn all the villains into more 'grey' villains.

Kerrigan is pure evil in BW? Make her grey in SC2.

Overmind is pure evil in SC1? Make him grey in SC2.

Mengsk leaves Kerrigan on Tarsonis in SC1? Invent some story of him taking revenge on her for the murder of his family and insert it into a novel.

The only one that hasn't fitted this pattern yet is Amon. Maybe that'll be the big plot twist of LotV? Amon isn't a bad person. He's just misunderstood and only Kerrigan can emphasise with him because she was misunderstood as well (by the entire fan base) before SC2 as well.

[ragnarok]

I do, because I remember before Starcraft was corrupted. Amon himself is a retcon, and therefore he's part of the problem.

It wasn't the game corruption, merely the new writers didn't think very well.

[Turalyon]

For me it was difficult to tell if the Overmind was even troubled by something back in SC1. Could you tell that?

Aside from focusing on the task at hand with subduing the Protoss, the Overmind wasn't "troubled" by anything else nor were there any indications to think otherwise. No-one knew that the Overmind was not metaphysically free in comparison to any other character at the time.

For example, it's like saying it's somehow ok to assume that Raynor has been always metaphysically free but somehow, not the Overmind. So therefore it's ok for the Overmind to be revealed as not being metaphysically free later but not ok for Raynor to be revealed as not being metaphysically free later. The problem is the underlying initial assumption. Unless there was something to shake the underlying assumption that all characters are free to take their own actions initially (there wasn't for the Overmind), one cannot just come and say later that the Overmind was never metaphysically free and think that's acceptable.

[Nissa]

Thank you, Turalyon. This is the exact sort of thing why I never base anything I say about Starcraft characters on anything besides the original games and the manual. Too often SC2 has mangled the characters, turning them into people they aren't.